Motion gaming: Direct combat edition

[Scott_Arm]

This thread is the first of a series that'll be expanded as games dictate. With all platforms supporting motion gaming in different styles, discussion about the different implementations, comparing and contrasting gameplay achievements and possibilities, is a new area for cross-platform debate. These threads allow such discussion without derailing specific game threads. Feel free to start other motion gaming threads for new cross-platform game styles whenever they crop up (like magic wand gameplay in cross platform Harry Potter and that PS3 game).

This thread is about simulated fisticuff combat, tracking a user throwing punches against one or more opponents. Current and upcoming titles are Fight Night and the Fight:Lights Out.

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Why would you have to stand still? Both Kinect and Move can handle movement. You can duck, move side to side, maybe front to back as well as leaning. With that you could handle slips to either side or a bob and weave type move.

 

[tha_con]

Why would you have to stand still? Both Kinect and Move can handle movement. You can duck, move side to side, maybe front to back as well as leaning. With that you could handle slips to either side or a bob and weave type move.

That's not necessarily what I mean. With both platforms, you have no way to really control your overall movement. You wouldn't have an efficient way to move around the ring and try to position your opponent into the corner. That kind of thing would be pretty difficult and counter intuitive with a motion controller, where as sticks + buttons give total control over the situation, allowing for much more tactical precision and strategy.

I still think both platforms can handle quick and accurate punching / movement, but as far as a "sim" is concerned, I think it's out of the question. Now, for something more on rails / arcadey, I think there is more than a good chance we'll get quite a few great games on both platforms.

 

[patsu]

That's not necessarily what I mean. With both platforms, you have no way to really control your overall movement. You wouldn't have an efficient way to move around the ring and try to position your opponent into the corner. That kind of thing would be pretty difficult and counter intuitive with a motion controller, where as sticks + buttons give total control over the situation, allowing for much more tactical precision and strategy.

Hmm... you should be able to corner your opponent like in the Gladiator game though, such as forcing him/her to ring out.

It's easier in that game because you can send the opponent flying sometimes.

A full-out sim may be difficult for performance reasons (Some people may expect really high response time), but a gamey sim may be possible. It has to be fun to play. Like how Yamauchi mentioned that he can't make GT5 too technical because the players would give up.

The advantages of a controller pad are: no need for huge space, and quick action.

 

[RobertR1]

Of course it picks up punching fine. But boxing is more than punching right ?

yes and I pointed this out in a different post and how Kinect would still work for it.

http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1494660&postcount=36

 

[patsu]

It is a matter of "technical" expectation (e.g., differences between Sports Champions' Table Tennis and Kinect Table Tennis and WiiSports Table Tennis). They all do TT but individual feel is different.

 

[Arwin]

That's not necessarily what I mean. With both platforms, you have no way to really control your overall movement. You wouldn't have an efficient way to move around the ring and try to position your opponent into the corner. That kind of thing would be pretty difficult and counter intuitive with a motion controller

Again, moving around the ring works fine in The Fight, by holding one of the Move buttons on any of your controllers and leaning it in the direction you want to go. I don't know if Kinect can do the same, but I think they'll find a way to do it. I cornered my opponent yesterday against a fence.

I still think both platforms can handle quick and accurate punching / movement, but as far as a "sim" is concerned, I think it's out of the question.

I disagree. The Fight is already more realistic than the previous iterations of any boxing game. Now all they'd basically need to do to keep up is put stamina stats on every limb, instead of just an overal stamina bar (which by the way if you keep hitting when empty, will decrease the level you'll recover to).

 

[patsu]

Again, moving around the ring works fine in The Fight, by holding one of the Move buttons on any of your controllers and leaning it in the direction you want to go. I don't know if Kinect can do the same, but I think they'll find a way to do it. I cornered my opponent yesterday against a fence.

You should be able to move around freely in Kinect (as long as there is enough space).

If button-oriented movement is used on Move, it may require less space but it is less natural. If they track both controller movement, they should be able to estimate the absolute position of the user.

 

[Arwin]

You should be able to move around freely in Kinect (as long as there is enough space).

Yes, but to make it work in the context of a game, you can't assume that Kinect can see the full dimensions of a fighting arena and you walk around in there as you would do irl. Instead, you need something that requires a little less space. Perhaps just stepping forwards with both feet to start walking in that direction, or something like that.

If button-oriented movement is used on Move, it may require less space but it is less natural. If they track both controller movement, they should be able to estimate the absolute position of the user.

It is already much more natural than the analog stick though. And again, an absolute position may just not be practical. Right now, I can step forward and punch, and that works, or I can walk around holding the button and leaning the controller (or my whole body, which happens almost automatically and is therefore quite natural anyway). Good enough for me.

 

[patsu]

Yes, but to make it work in the context of a game, you can't assume that Kinect can see the full dimensions of a fighting arena and you walk around in there as you would do irl. Instead, you need something that requires a little less space. Perhaps just stepping forwards with both feet to start walking in that direction, or something like that.

It is already much more natural than the analog stick though. And again, an absolute position may just not be practical. Right now, I can step forward and punch, and that works, or I can walk around holding the button and leaning the controller (or my whole body, which happens almost automatically and is therefore quite natural anyway). Good enough for me.

Yeah, I'm assuming they can exaggerate our movement in the game.

I might get Lights Out just to see how well the mechanics work. ^_^

 

[dobwal]

A super sim boxing game with strictly 1:1 tracking would make sense, if you wanted the ability of your boxer to be limited to your athletic ability. There would be no need for stat building because it would be pretty superfluous other than punching power. Putting 100 into your stamina of your boxer would mean very little if you are actually physically tiring out by round 4. It would also be a problem with quickness.

I would very much like a super sim boxer but not one based on my actual physical abilities and thats what you get without breaking 1:1 tracking. I rather have the standard controller gaming mechanic with Kinect alleviating the controller of functions it could never do very well, like head movement, upper body positioning (slipping and rolling with punches), quick movement in any direction (I personally hate double taps or flicks) and taunting.

 

[Arwin]

If you feel this is too off-topic, then go ahead and remove it. Or perhaps it should be a different thread? Anyway, I just wanted to show you first hand how well motion tracking can work, by going into the target practice mode and then instead of following the instructions, just messing about mixing all sorts of movement types. As you can see the tracking is really precise and fast.

Start at 50 seconds or so in, as I couldn't manage to get the editing software to work properly.

If people are interested, I can do a walking around demo next, although I think there are probably some good videos of that around on the web already. If you are interested though, tell me what I should show when walking around.

 

[onQ]

If you feel this is too off-topic, then go ahead and remove it. Or perhaps it should be a different thread? Anyway, I just wanted to show you first hand how well motion tracking can work, by going into the target practice mode and then instead of following the instructions, just messing about mixing all sorts of movement types. As you can see the tracking is really precise and fast.

Start at 50 seconds or so in, as I couldn't manage to get the editing software to work properly.

If people are interested, I can do a walking around demo next, although I think there are probably some good videos of that around on the web already. If you are interested though, tell me what I should show when walking around.

I was about to make a video tonight to show off the Target Practice training but I'm still hurting from last night.

but just from doing this training in The Fight let me know that a Move Boxing game would be on a different level than a Kinect Boxing game because of how it can pick up your hooks , Jabs & uppercuts where you aim them, I'm not talking about high , low ,left ,right center , I mean really connect where you hook & uppercut , over , under , left side of the head & so on.

I been doing the Block Busting workout in the Your Shape Evolved demo but when you do the Target Practice training in The Fight: Lights Out it really click that there is a big difference from what you can do with kinect & the Move controllers.

I know, right? So far, I encounter very few people outside reviewers and journalists who don't actually love this game, it's very odd.

And yeah, target practice is my favorite by a mile too. It's also a great showcase of the tracking, as it's just tracking you, and it's quite precise about hitting - you can miss by going to short, to deep, you can make totally wrong punches, hit the glove from the other side, etc. They should really use it as a showcase for the game and its excellent tech.

I'm trying to do at least this exercise almost every other day, get the 50 points, though I don't manage it always because my wife has the TV or my son is up, etc. They're both sleeping now, I should be at it.

By the way you must be an excellent boxer, the way you're breezing through the fights. I have a lot of trouble beating my opponents still.

(from the Move games thread)

I workout a little & never smoke or drink so I was able to play for about 5 hours none stop but I'm paying for it now, my body has never been this sore even when I workout hard with weights

I'm not sure if I'm a good boxer or not I never stepped in a ring but I have my brother's boxing gloves & punching bag that I messed around with a few times & all of these fights seem pretty easy to me so far I didn't even come close to losing any after I went to the training mode one time, I nailed must of these 54 matches that I won last night.

 

[onQ]

Just played the Endurance Sparring training in The Fight:Lights Out for the 1st time to see how many rounds you had to win to get the trophy because I seen someone on psu.com forums ask ( it's 20 by the way) and I just kept going for 1 hour none stop & made it to 108


Score of 318,486

says I burned 51,226 calories that can't be right lol

as I was playing I just became numb to the world I'm not even sore now even though I was sore before I started playing.

& my head tracking works perfectly with the help of a sheet that's close to the color of my wall to cover my dark colored curtains.

 

[Arwin]

Wow, that's crazy! Nicely done. Trophy information by the way is always on one of those trophy websites.

Yeah, the head-tracking really seems to require an even background, preferably with a good contrast. I'm going to test GT5's head tracking tonight to see if it is better or not (I would expect it to be the same, but you never know).

 

[dobwal]

I was totally impressed by the Arwin video.

But, when I watched this video I have the impression that either the player has horrible form and playing with the AI on super easy or the game is a poor representation of what move can actually do.

The punches seemed kinda of slow and subdued and it looks like the player won by clubbing or slapping the AI to death with a closed fist. I assume those were suppose to be hooks but there is no real torque being produce by the upper body so they look like arm punches. The only punch that really seem well executed by the game or the player was the uppercut.

 

[kagemaru]

Regarding the issue of moving around the ring in a boxing game, IMO it's already established that a working mechanic can be designed with Move.

So with Kinect, what do you guys think about this design:

To move your character around the ring, place one foot in the general direction you wish to move. If you want to move forward, place a foot forward, if you wish to move back, move a foot back. I'm sure there are variables, such as the software knowing the difference between someone trying to move and just standing there in a fighting stance (which generally has one foot in front of the other anyways), but a clever designer should be able to figure a system out by using your feet IMO.

The rest for Kinect would be easy IMO. Just have a rectangle play area like most current games have now, where you are granted free movement. So if you wish to side step right then side step right, much like the Reflex Ridge game in Kinect Adventures.

 

[Scott_Arm]

I don't like that way of doing movement for Kinect, because I really don't want to be punching with my feet side by side. I'd rather have it done with a dead zone, like you suggested, where if you step a certain distance to one side, you circle in that direction, and then step back into the dead zone to stop. It isn't exactly intuitive, but it could work.

 

[Scott_Arm]

I was totally impressed by the Arwin video.

But, when I watched this video I have the impression that either the player has horrible form and playing with the AI on super easy or the game is a poor representation of what move can actually do.

The punches seemed kinda of slow and subdued and it looks like the player won by clubbing or slapping the AI to death with a closed fist. I assume those were suppose to be hooks but there is no real torque being produce by the upper body so they look like arm punches. The only punch that really seem well executed by the game or the player was the uppercut.

The problem with the punches in that vid is probably that the way the body is animated doesn't reflect body rotation since Move can't see it. They keep the shoulders mostly static, so a right cross looks more like a weird clubbing arm punch.

I know that Kinect can see how I turn my shoulders, but whether it could pick that up quickly while I'm throwing a punch to reflect it properly on screen, I don't know. If you play table tennis, you can move around before you're serve and turn your body, and it definitely sees your shoulder position.

Looks like Move tracks head movement well, but I didn't see any in that fight vid. I'm guessing he wasn't really trying to slip shots, but I'd be curious to see how it would look.

Nice uppercut at 1:16

 

[onQ]

I was totally impressed by the Arwin video.

But, when I watched this video I have the impression that either the player has horrible form and playing with the AI on super easy or the game is a poor representation of what move can actually do.

The punches seemed kinda of slow and subdued and it looks like the player won by clubbing or slapping the AI to death with a closed fist. I assume those were suppose to be hooks but there is no real torque being produce by the upper body so they look like arm punches. The only punch that really seem well executed by the game or the player was the uppercut.

ok let me hit you with one of my right hooks! the AI isn't on easy I'm near the end of the game in this video.

you don't have to throw your body around to hit hard I just have a nice right hook.

maybe the game is feeling the power behind the hits because it has accelerometer & gyroscope ,

I wasn't trying to use proper form I was just getting the match over with.

 

[onQ]

The problem with the punches in that vid is probably that the way the body is animated doesn't reflect body rotation since Move can't see it. They keep the shoulders mostly static, so a right cross looks more like a weird clubbing arm punch.

I know that Kinect can see how I turn my shoulders, but whether it could pick that up quickly while I'm throwing a punch to reflect it properly on screen, I don't know. If you play table tennis, you can move around before you're serve and turn your body, and it definitely sees your shoulder position.

Looks like Move tracks head movement well, but I didn't see any in that fight vid. I'm guessing he wasn't really trying to slip shots, but I'd be curious to see how it would look.

Nice uppercut at 1:16

yeah I wasn't really moving around once the fight started.

here is one that I was using the head tracking

I think you would want to take a look at this video.