Microsoft E3 2009 Keynote Thread

[obonicus]

That's EXACTLY What I propose.

They have franchises that are family friendly, just not as many as Nintendo.

They really don't. You could argue B&K (and whatever other N64-era IPs Rare has), but all the people who were raised by Rare 10 years ago now aren't in the family-friendly demographic anymore. Viva Pinata, however quality it may be, never caught on with the kids, though it's probably not too late to reinvent it as a platformer rather than as a strangely hardcore farm sim.

Like I've said, they need to encourage 3rd parties to make these games, fast.

Even aside from this, the big winner for Nintendo was Wii sports. Not Mario or Zelda.

Yes and no. Wii Sports pushed the system into a larger demographic, but, and I've said this a dozen times by now, even Nintendo realizes it can't survive without the hardcore appeal. If you want an example, look at Japan, look how just Wii Fit and Wii Sports-equivalents can't buoy a system. And again, this is Nintendo, in Japan.

The genius of this plan is they can eventually introduce the add-on to the existing xb360 crowd and potentially merge these two bases with games that utilize both conventional and Natal interfaces.

I don't think there's any genius to the plan of breaking apart your potential userbases on purpose. They need to remarket the 360 brand entirely, or not at all -- they need to make it extremely clear that this new system is the Halo system, it's where you'll be able to play Halo (unfortunately, we're still talking about Halo and not something less focused). They need the early-adopters to showcase the system, to build some critical mass, to show people how gestures controls are the best thing in the world, if that's the selling point. I'm out of touch with the US, can the Microsoft name push a new hardware box in the marketplace with no momentum pushing it forward -- it seems like MS had a hard time at the beginning even with the 360?

 

[obonicus]

c'mon ... They are so close it was really no point in even making a different spec. The games are indistinguishable from gamecube games.

That's a ridiculous statement. Can you play Wii games on the Gamecube? Can I use my Wiimotes or Classic controller on GC games? They're different consoles, half-step notwithstanding. And, and this is important, one of them has support for wireless motion controllers out of the box, and the other doesn't.

The other point is gamecube gamers are not the ones pushing Wii hardware. Some are, but most are non-gamers.

This is true, but I'm not arguing that. What I'm arguing is that even Nintendo has seen the folly of following the strategy you're advocating. 'Non-gamers' don't play games. Mom who buys the system for Wii Fit may pick up Wii Sports Active, but they're not in the market for much else -- but Junior is. Look at a Wii top 10 software chart. Besides wii play and Wii Fit, the rest are kids' games (and even the minigames in those titles above skew kiddy). And guess what? Third parties sell a crapton of games on the Wii. (They're just not selling very many of the games we're interested in.)

 

[TheChefO]

But really the same thing can be accomplished with marketing, and a redesign of the console.

As long as the package includes Natal and is priced attractively and the games selection is diverse and distinctly "Natal", not xb360, then it will have success.

I still believe it needs time separate from xb360 to solidify it's identity and brand.

 

[TheChefO]

They really don't. You could argue B&K (and whatever other N64-era IPs Rare has),

BK, VP, Kameo, Fable ... I'm not saying they match N's library, but they have a start to build from.

Like I've said, they need to encourage 3rd parties to make these games, fast.

Naruto and many of the games on xblive including board games and card games offer a decent library of simple family games right out of the gate.

Yes and no. Wii Sports pushed the system into a larger demographic, but, and I've said this a dozen times by now, even Nintendo realizes it can't survive without the hardcore appeal. If you want an example, look at Japan, look how just Wii Fit and Wii Sports-equivalents can't buoy a system. And again, this is Nintendo, in Japan.

Japan is a good example of a demographic that isn't gaming on consoles anymore. Across the board.

For a sales example, If MS just sold Natal at the success rate Nintendo sold Wii Fit, they would be quite happy to have these additional 15 million xb360's in peoples homes. That's a 50% increase in userbase.

IMO, I think it has so much more potential than this, but even this success level would be great for MS's bottom line.

I don't think there's any genius to the plan of breaking apart your potential userbases on purpose. They need to remarket the 360 brand entirely, or not at all -- they need to make it extremely clear that this new system is the Halo system, it's where you'll be able to play Halo (unfortunately, we're still talking about Halo and not something less focused). They need the early-adopters to showcase the system, to build some critical mass, to show people how gestures controls are the best thing in the world, if that's the selling point. I'm out of touch with the US, can the Microsoft name push a new hardware box in the marketplace with no momentum pushing it forward -- it seems like MS had a hard time at the beginning even with the 360?

I strongly disagree that they need to clearly identify with the Halo brand in the push for natal. These gamers were ALREADY interested in xb360 with or without Natal.

MS wants the people that were NOT interested.

Blending these images dilutes the message.

It'd be like me not liking mustard after trying it and then someone saying "hey, you should try 'mustardmayo', it's delish!!" ... Instead, the way you advert this is "Mayard". It sounds far enough away from something that was disliked to potentially bring in people that don't like mustard.


The other thing is it isn't splitting the userbase. The userbase is ALREADY split. Nobody has a natal now. 30million have a xb360. You can't force people to buy an add-on. Especially one that is designed to bring on non-gamers. Gamers already have an xb360, or plan to buy one.

Non-gamers don't care about or may even dislike xb360.

The plan is to capture these non-gamers.

 

[TheChefO]

That's a ridiculous statement. Can you play Wii games on the Gamecube? Can I use my Wiimotes or Classic controller on GC games? They're different consoles, half-step notwithstanding. And, and this is important, one of them has support for wireless motion controllers out of the box, and the other doesn't.

Are you honestly trying to state that Nintendo could not have made Waggle as an add-on and had games that were for the most part indistinguishable from Wii games? How did they get the wave-bird to work anyway? .... Point is there was no real technical reason that they couldn't have added waggle and had the same result on the screen...

This is true, but I'm not arguing that. What I'm arguing is that even Nintendo has seen the folly of following the strategy you're advocating. 'Non-gamers' don't play games. Mom who buys the system for Wii Fit may pick up Wii Sports Active, but they're not in the market for much else -- but Junior is. Look at a Wii top 10 software chart. Besides wii play and Wii Fit, the rest are kids' games (and even the minigames in those titles above skew kiddy). And guess what? Third parties sell a crapton of games on the Wii. (They're just not selling very many of the games we're interested in.)

And this is the ace in the hole that I was talking about.

Every Natal system is a potential xb360 and every xb360 a potential natal.

Natal system would just need a user to buy an xb360 standard controller and a xb360 system user would just need to buy the natal interface.

If "mom" buys a natal for her workout or whatever, and her son (or husband) wants to game traditionally, all that would need to be done is to buy a xb360 controller and a xb360 game...Done.

 

[I.S.T.]

BK, VP, Kameo, Fable ... I'm not saying they match N's library, but they have a start to build from.

Did you just call Fable family friendly?

 

[TheChefO]

Did you just call Fable family friendly?

It would have to be tweaked a bit as an off shoot, but the Fable world is certainly family friendly in a harry potter kind of way.

 

[obonicus]

BK, VP, Kameo, Fable ... I'm not saying they match N's library, but they have a start to build from.

Kameo's T-rated, so it's a maybe but Fable's M-rated. I already acknowledged VP (as long as they change the core gameplay for a spinoff), and as for BK, they might as well invent a new IP at this point, though there's probably no harm in using the old one.

Naruto and many of the games on xblive including board games and card games offer a decent library of simple family games right out of the gate.

It's a start but Microsoft has to make a much bigger push. These days it seems like the only 'kid' games the PS360 get are movie tie-ins, while the Wii and DS have a lock on these. This may be a cultural barrier that is extremely hard to overcome -- Nintendo, even when dead-last in the console war, cultivated its image of family-friendly.

Japan is a good example of a demographic that isn't gaming on consoles anymore. Across the board.

But here you're arguing the consequence. Why aren't they interested in the Wii? I'll give you my theory: Nintendo's extremely fierce push towards casual led to a platform where the average buyer had little to no interest in your typical videogame. The publishers, after weathering a series of flops, adapted and the Wii releases dried up. Once the market for the Wii reached a level of saturation, with no interesting titles coming, the interest in the system died out as well.

For a sales example, If MS just sold Natal at the success rate Nintendo sold Wii Fit, they would be quite happy to have these additional 15 million xb360's in peoples homes. That's a 50% increase in userbase.

Only if MS is making money on each console sold. On the razor-blade model, a 50% increase in userbase that doesn't equate to a similar increase in game sales shouldn't make them happy, no. There's no console war going on, there is a battle for profitability -- something MS is only barely managing with the 360.

I strongly disagree that they need to clearly identify with the Halo brand in the push for natal. These gamers were ALREADY interested in xb360 with or without Natal.

Right! But this isn't the xb360. Why would anyone want this? You're supposing the system will move on its own without early adopters to sell just how awesome the whole thing is, but the target audience you're talking about typically aren't early-adopters.

The other thing is it isn't splitting the userbase. The userbase is ALREADY split. Nobody has a natal now. 30million have a xb360. You can't force people to buy an add-on. Especially one that is designed to bring on non-gamers. Gamers already have an xb360, or plan to buy one.

Sorry, I misspoke. Splitting your fanbase.

Non-gamers don't care about or may even dislike xb360.

They may dislike game systems in general! It sounds like a petty reason to jettison your existing very-devoted fanbase.

The plan is to capture these non-gamers.

Supposing that these people even exist (the people for whom Wii is too hardcore), it's what I keep saying: doing only that is incredibly short-sighted. God help me for mentioning disruption, but it's not just a matter of rebranding -- they need to build bridge games. Again, this is something that Nintendo has not been particularly successful at.

Are you honestly trying to state that Nintendo could not have made Waggle as an add-on? How did they get the wave-bird to work? ....

Of course they could. They didn't, they chose to release a different console. I can't believe we're arguing this. The Wii is not the same console as the Gamecube! They don't play the same games! They don't accept the same peripherals! They don't have the same capabilities!

And this is the ace in the hole that I was talking about.

Every Natal system is a potential xb360 and every xb360 a potential natal.

Natal system would just need a user to buy an xb360 standard controller and a xb360 system user would just need to buy the natal interface.

If "mom" buys a natal for her workout or whatever, and her son wants to game traditionally, all that would need to be done is to buy a controller and a game...Done.

Except this is contrary to your idea of separating the Natal system from the 360. At what point do they cave and say 'okay, you got us, they're the same thing'.

 

[TheChefO]

Kameo's T-rated, so it's a maybe but Fable's M-rated. I already acknowledged VP (as long as they change the core gameplay for a spinoff), and as for BK, they might as well invent a new IP at this point, though there's probably no harm in using the old one.

All I'm saying is it's a start. They can build from this into the family friendly market.

It's a start but Microsoft has to make a much bigger push. These days it seems like the only 'kid' games the PS360 get are movie tie-ins, while the Wii and DS have a lock on these. This may be a cultural barrier that is extremely hard to overcome -- Nintendo, even when dead-last in the console war, cultivated its image of family-friendly.

Nintendo will likely always be the defacto standard in kid games, but as long as a decent alternative exists which also offers more, then that alternative has room to grow.

But here you're arguing the consequence. Why aren't they interested in the Wii?

They aren't interested in consoles, period. Look at the drop from ps2. Even ps3 isn't selling.

Only if MS is making money on each console sold. On the razor-blade model, a 50% increase in userbase that doesn't equate to a similar increase in game sales shouldn't make them happy, no. There's no console war going on, there is a battle for profitability -- something MS is only barely managing with the 360.

This part is quite true and they will have to be careful in this regard, but the thing MS is getting in the natal install base is potential xb360 consumers AND more live customers. The Live customers are really where the money will be made from natal users.

... the target audience you're talking about typically aren't early-adopters.

I'm of the opinion that GC users weren't the ones that sparked early Wii sales. They were there, but we heard reports all over the place about non-gamers falling in love with Wii very early in the game.

This doesn't change the fact that they will indeed need some killer apps for Natal, but they will not need hardcore gamers to spark interest in the general public. FTR though, I do believe a significant portion of the xb360 base will pickup a natal bundle at launch.

Sorry, I misspoke. Splitting your fanbase.

The existing fanbase is fine. As long as their games are still coming, why would they have an issue? The hardcore gamer is typically an educated gamer and as such they will be well aware of what natal is and isn't. It's the non-gamer that MS needs to worry about bringing into the fold.

They may dislike game systems in general! It sounds like a petty reason to jettison your existing very-devoted fanbase.

If they dislike game systems in general, then these are potential customers. The ones that may have tried Wii, but weren't quite sold.

Why do you believe the fan base will be jettisoned?

Supposing that these people even exist (the people for whom Wii is too hardcore), it's what I keep saying: doing only that is incredibly short-sighted. God help me for mentioning disruption, but it's not just a matter of rebranding -- they need to build bridge games. Again, this is something that Nintendo has not been particularly successful at.

It's not that Wii is too hardcore, it's taking natal to places nintendo hasn't gone yet and can't go. Bridge games into existing core gamers is short sighted. Taking Natal into realms games and gamers haven't been is where natal has a future. I listed the non-gaming potential earlier.

Of course they could. They didn't...

Why? That is the question. Don't tell me wifi, flash ram, or the wii bar...

These could have all been included in the add-on pack.

Why didn't they go the add-on route? As you said, technically, it would have been possible, but they chose not to.

The reason is simple. It's the same reason Wii doesn't look like a traditional games console. Same reason the name isn't like a traditional games console. Same reason the controllers look like a regular remote control. Same reason they packed in Wii sports, not Mario. Same reason they marketed Wii on talk shows and night shows instead of just G4 and games magazines.

Except this is contrary to your idea of separating the Natal system from the 360. At what point do they cave and say 'okay, you got us, they're the same thing'.

The point isn't fooling people, the point is erasing a barrier from non-gamers. I'd say it would be a smart thing to put right on the box "Compatible with xb360!".

Just like an Ipod is essentially the same as many products on the market and the guts of many tvs are the same ... the difference is in the marketing/branding.

In the case of Natal, the extended difference is the standard interface being your body instead of a controller.

Not optional, standard.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

And guess what? Third parties sell a crapton of games on the Wii. (They're just not selling very many of the games we're interested in.)

I agree with the rest of your post just this bit I disagree with. Unless, course, you mean less than 200k and quite often less than 100k a month sales is a "crapton." Especially with regards to it's install base compared to the other consoles. Using those numbers, then 3rd parties are selling a mega-super-crapton on X360...

But on the whole I agree, there is just no logical reason that would make any business sense for not tying in the Natal system to existing systems in addition to a "relaunched" X360.

Although I do think that MS, at least, see's profit in more consoles sold even if more games don't move. As they do have some attractive consumer oriented tie-ins to bring in additional revenue after the sale of a console. XBOX live services. Whether it's movie rentals for mom and pop, XBLA games for the kids, or even Netflix streaming... Would that along be enough to subsidize the cost of Natal? No clue, but I'm guessing that's also why MS appears to be internally pushing Natal pretty hard at least with the 1st part studios.

Regards,
SB

 

[obonicus]

They aren't interested in consoles, period. Look at the drop from ps2. Even ps3 isn't selling.

What does that have to do with anything? The PS3 doesn't sell anywhere. The Wii was selling well for a good while, then it dropped off. You're behaving as if game systems exist in a gameless vacuum.

This doesn't change the fact that they will indeed need some killer apps for Natal, but they will not need hardcore gamers to spark interest in the general public. FTR though, I do believe a significant portion of the xb360 base will pickup a natal bundle at launch.

That depends: are these educated people, as you suppose, or not? I actually agree with you, but that's because don't think that the mass of hardcore gamers on any system is educated. If a significant percentage of 360 owners who are buying Natal bundles are buying a second console, and I don't think educated people would do that. Yes, there are real fans with more money than brains who will buy two consoles just for the novelty, but they're far from typical.

The existing fanbase is fine. As long as their games are still coming, why would they have an issue? The hardcore gamer is typically an educated gamer and as such they will be well aware of what natal is and isn't. It's the non-gamer that MS needs to worry about bringing into the fold.

I disagree with your premise, that gamers are educated. I believe exactly the opposite, and that we at B3D are in no way representative of any appreciable portion of the gamer population. I just think that putting everyone on the same system from the start would be a better idea -- and with care, it'd avoid the errors Nintendo may have made. Maybe.

If they dislike game systems in general, then these are potential customers. The ones that may have tried Wii, but weren't quite sold.

Again, I have serious doubts as to the viability of this market, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

It's not that Wii is too hardcore, it's taking natal to places nintendo hasn't gone yet and can't go. Bridge games into existing core gamers is short sighted. Taking Natal into realms games and gamers haven't been is where natal has a future. I listed the non-gaming potential earlier.

No no no no. This is Nintendo's mistake. They need to bridge into the area the market knows how to deal with. You have to convert them. You need to sell them on upscale games because that's what you know how to do. You don't sell a market you're not sure exists on another product that you're not sure exists.

Why? That is the question. Don't tell me wifi, flash ram, or the wii bar...

These could have all been included in the add-on pack.

Why didn't they go the add-on route? As you said, technically, it would have been possible, but they chose not to.

The reason is simple. It's the same reason Wii doesn't look like a traditional games console. Same reason the name isn't like a traditional games console. Same reason the controllers look like a regular remote control. Same reason they packed in Wii sports, not Mario. Same reason they marketed Wii on talk shows and night shows instead of just G4 and games magazines.

Sure, when they launched the Wii they targeted a different audience. But this doesn't mean they're not different consoles. This isn't a matter of opinion, seriously.

 

[obonicus]

I agree with the rest of your post just this bit I disagree with. Unless, course, you mean less than 200k and quite often less than 100k a month sales is a "crapton." Especially with regards to it's install base compared to the other consoles. Using those numbers, then 3rd parties are selling a mega-super-crapton on X360...

This is where the notion of 'legs' on Wii comes from, which a lot of people think applies to every single game on the platform. No, they don't feature highly on NPD, but these games sell steadily.

The Wii has 54 million-sellers (possibly more now), which, even if you remove first-party games you're still left with a huge amount of third-parties. According to Nintendo, they've pulled ahead of the 360 on 3rd-party sales last August. Again, these aren't the games we care about, and it's why I say that kiddy games are so freaking important.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

This is where the notion of 'legs' on Wii comes from, which a lot of people think applies to every single game on the platform. No, they don't feature highly on NPD, but these games sell steadily.

The Wii has 54 million-sellers (possibly more now), which, even if you remove first-party games you're still left with a huge amount of third-parties. According to Nintendo, they've pulled ahead of the 360 on 3rd-party sales last August. Again, these aren't the games we care about, and it's why I say that kiddy games are so freaking important.

Interesting so it's probably more a case of just selling more software titles than more copies of a single title. So if a 3rd party released 10 titles in a month that each sold 100k that's still 1 million total titles.

Regards,
SB

 

[TheChefO]

Sure, when they launched the Wii they targeted a different audience. But this doesn't mean they're not different consoles. This isn't a matter of opinion, seriously.

I'm fully aware they are different consoles, but not out of necessity. It was out of the desire to target a different audience than GC had ... as you said.

They wanted to distance themselves from GC and traditional gaming in general.

The same thing holds true here for MS, but MS has a huge advantage if they play their cards right...

MS has the hardcore gamer. They are finally making money on xb360 and growing the userbase with lower cost points and increased games library. In the meantime they are sweetening the online experience every year.

The thing they don't have is a slice of the sweet Wii pie.

But even this is short sighted. Natal has significant potential as a non-game device.

If you were to cage it in and limit the scope of natal to gaming only, I would agree with the premise of a simple bundle/add-on. As it would simply be an extension of the xbox experience. As such the marketing is mostly the same to mostly the same audience.



But if you don't believe the driving force for Wii was a change of direction in who they target as a potential customer and that this change of direction was the key to their success, then I can see where you're coming from WRT Natal being an extension of xb360 userbase.



As an example for where I see this going:

What do you think would happen if tomorrow (fantasy I know, but bear with me) Nintendo and MS announced that Wii is indeed compatible with xb360 and vice versa. All that would need to be done to get them to work with one another is to buy the other's controller.

What would happen?

 

[TheChefO]

What does that have to do with anything? The PS3 doesn't sell anywhere. The Wii was selling well for a good while, then it dropped off. You're behaving as if game systems exist in a gameless vacuum.

Obviously Wii is reaching saturation points across many markets at their current price. And yes, software does have something to do with it. But they are very limited on what software can sell on Wii because there are alternatives that do certain game types and styles significantly better than Wii.

That depends: are these educated people, as you suppose, or not? I actually agree with you, but that's because don't think that the mass of hardcore gamers on any system is educated. If a significant percentage of 360 owners who are buying Natal bundles are buying a second console, and I don't think educated people would do that. Yes, there are real fans with more money than brains who will buy two consoles just for the novelty, but they're far from typical.

As I said, a killer app, and a good bit of variety will be needed to push sales, regardless if it is an add-on or separate plat.

I just think that putting everyone on the same system from the start would be a better idea...

Well, it essentially is, but using branding and marketing to help ease the introduction of natal to people that don't like traditional controllers, and by extension, xb360.

Again, I have serious doubts as to the viability of this market, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

I would be with you 100% on doubting how many people played wii, and didn't buy it but would turn around and buy natal360 for $100 more, if all it offered was the exact same thing which leads us to...

No no no no. This is Nintendo's mistake. They need to bridge into the area the market knows how to deal with. You have to convert them. You need to sell them on upscale games because that's what you know how to do. You don't sell a market you're not sure exists on another product that you're not sure exists.

And here's where we have a difference of opinion. I think Nintendo has done a fabulous job of bringing non-gamers into the fold and opening their minds to the possibilities of interactive entertainment.

There is no conversion necessary. Some people will never like a FPS or Fighting game or any of the traditional games when using a standard controller ... heck they might not even like games.

Here's the trick though:

Even for these people, the Natal can offer them something.

Dance lessons, workouts, martial arts, learning languages, college education, childrens education, streaming movies, keyboardless google type searches, etc

For these people that don't game, and maybe never will, they still have something on offer from Natal. Now from this growth point they may attract other people that may like to game into the same household.




Perhaps this is the difference between a family choosing a Wii or ps3 or xbox into choosing Natal because it offers something for everyone in the living room.

Don't forget that 10 years ago, MS knew nothing of the games market. With Natal, they can forge a new path. If it is spread into these nongaming realms it really can become the convergence box that everyone envisioned so many years ago and then some.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I'm fully aware they are different consoles, but not out of necessity.

I disagree. There is certainly a processing overhead in driving the Wiimote. I think looking at what they were achieving with GC versus what they wanted to achieve in software, Nintendo recognised they needed new hardware unrestricted by the costs that GC faced back in its day. A GC with a Wiimote would give a notably inferior experience, sufficient that Nintendo felt it'd be enough of a turn-off. Or putting it another way, if your theory holds true and Nintendo could have used exactly the same GC hardware in Wii at less cost to themselves, why didn't they? Why isn't Wii exactly a re-boxed GC, instead of a redesigned system that uses the same architecture but doubles up on performance, adds considerable RAM, full-sized DVDs, certain ancillary features etc.?

If not out of necessity as you suggest, they made these changes for the fun of it at extra cost?

 

[TheChefO]

I disagree. There is certainly a processing overhead in driving the Wiimote. I think looking at what they were achieving with GC versus what they wanted to achieve in software, Nintendo recognised they needed new hardware unrestricted by the costs that GC faced back in its day. A GC with a Wiimote would give a notably inferior experience, sufficient that Nintendo felt it'd be enough of a turn-off. Or putting it another way, if your theory holds true and Nintendo could have used exactly the same GC hardware in Wii at less cost to themselves, why didn't they? Why isn't Wii exactly a re-boxed GC, instead of a redesigned system that uses the same architecture but doubles up on performance, adds considerable RAM, full-sized DVDs, certain ancillary features etc.?

If not out of necessity as you suggest, they made these changes for the fun of it at extra cost?

Are you suggesting they couldn't have done something similar to Natal where it has a processor onboard to offload the main system from these processing duties?

Regardless, Natal does have this onboard processor that doesn't impact performance of the xb360. End result is the same.


Point is, Wii games are largely the same (technically) as GC games and the reason they didn't go the add-on route was due to marketing and branding.

The slight bump in clock and ram was to attempt to keep within the same visual ballpark as ps3 and xb360.

It failed of course but this is well off topic.

PS4 isn't around the corner, WiiHD isn't likely to blow xb360 and ps3 away. And this proposed Natal360 isn't a replacement of a near future xb720.

 

[RancidLunchmeat]

And this proposed Natal360 isn't a replacement of a near future xb720.

And this is what is important.

I don't mind, or disagree, with repackaging the 360 at a $149 price point w/ Natal and calling it 'Mr. Pink Fuzzy Family Fun Machine!' and marketing it towards the market that everybody believes is buying the Wii.

(I'm not still convinced we've got that divergent of markets, or that market is interested in remaining interested in products like this generation after generation.)

But I foresee huge problems if MS believes that Natal can add significant legs to the 360 in terms of delivering for their main demographic - the hardcore gamer.

We want better games, larger games, pretty games, more graphicly intense games, better AI, etc. There's lots of improvements to the gaming experience that require additional CPU, GPU, RAM, storage capacity, even if you don't believe the cost/benefit ratio of graphic enhancement is worthwhile.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

And this is what is important.

I don't mind, or disagree, with repackaging the 360 at a $149 price point w/ Natal and calling it 'Mr. Pink Fuzzy Family Fun Machine!' and marketing it towards the market that everybody believes is buying the Wii.

(I'm not still convinced we've got that divergent of markets, or that market is interested in remaining interested in products like this generation after generation.)

But I foresee huge problems if MS believes that Natal can add significant legs to the 360 in terms of delivering for their main demographic - the hardcore gamer.

We want better games, larger games, pretty games, more graphicly intense games, better AI, etc. There's lots of improvements to the gaming experience that require additional CPU, GPU, RAM, storage capacity, even if you don't believe the cost/benefit ratio of graphic enhancement is worthwhile.

I'm afraid you'll be disappointed for the next few years then as current plans from MS and Sony have their consoles lasting approximately 10 years after launch.

Regards,
SB

 

[TheChefO]

I'm afraid you'll be disappointed for the next few years then as current plans from MS and Sony have their consoles lasting approximately 10 years after launch.

Regards,
SB

Note that neither one of them said that they WON'T launch a new console before that time.

I believe they will attempt to support the existing userbase for 10 years, but neither is foolish enough to think there won't be next gen competition on the market before ten years.

And neither one wants to be the last one out of the gate with a new console.