Microsoft E3 2009 Keynote Thread


[edit] scratch that whole speculation on Molyneux with regards to Natal conception.

This bit was interesting...

But it's not magic, it's real; Kudo told me that it's actually some really smart infra-red 'radar'-like trickery that accurately perceives players in 3D space, simultaneously tracking over 48 joints on your body, enabling it to accurately redraw your skeleton in real time as you move about. On a separate 'debug screen' in the closed-doors session, we could witness for ourselves the 'mind's eye' of Natal, visually showing how it completely understands where we are, how we're moving, where we are in 3D space, how far in front of my face my hand is, whatever. It can supposedly even track individual hand and finger movement when it switches into this more finely-tuned mode.

So the capability appears to be there if they go into that "mode." I'm going to guess you'd also have to sit closer to the camera perhaps, which means it may never be enabled for consumer use.

Also...

The voice recognition software - which was actually developed elsewhere within Microsoft and apparently features in the upcoming Windows 7 - had detected the changing intonation in my voice when I mentioned losing the phone.

Seems to imply it's using the exact same voice recognition as what will be released with Windows 7.

Also confirmation that it can track in the dark (or as near to dark as you can get with a screen illuminating the room). It doesn't use color in any way, shape, or form to do 3D positional tracking.

And it can track up to 4 people (192 different points). Although that's a lot of people to fit into the camera's field of view. :p

Also, something curious while it mentions Burnout not recognizing certain people's actions for controlling the game. I don't see any mention about whether the breakout game worked for them or not?

If the Breakout game worked, then it's a more specific problem with Natal + Burnout.

And in a similar vein everyone can see the debug screens that MS has at the presentations where it displays the skeleton and all 48 points tracked. No mention of whether it was still tracking the person while they were trying to use Burnout.

And Miyamoto-san...wow...

I noticed there are reports that Shigeru Miyamoto checked out Natal during the show, too. It's true; I was there when he was. In fact, he stole my session. Natal's project manager Branden Powell was freaking out about it when Miyamoto was in his Natal area - first with Kudo, then with Peter. What the reports don't tell you is what Miyamoto thinks about Natal. I know what he thinks about Natal because I asked him directly when he came out of the demo. He said he liked it, nodding enthusiastically when I asked him if it was "good". So that's a world exclusive right there, I'm pretty sure.

I'd poop my pants if this prompted him to make a game for X360.

Regards,
SB
 
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He said he liked it, nodding enthusiastically when I asked him if it was "good".

I'd poop my pants if this prompted him to make a game for X360.

It's a sexy and innovative technology. People in the industry and gamers in general should be happy (Yay, more than 1080p and 4xAA to talk about). For Nintendo's case, this E3 is a strong endorsement of their strategy (Partial vindication !). I am sure they are very happy but at the same time charged up to face the competition. Fortunately, like what the EA exec mentioned, the vendors are not head on this time.
 
It's a sexy and innovative technology. People in the industry and gamers in general should be happy (Yay, more than 1080p and 4xAA to talk about). For Nintendo's case, this E3 is a strong endorsement of their strategy (Partial vindication !). I am sure they are very happy but at the same time charged up to face the competition. Fortunately, like what the EA exec mentioned, the vendors are not head on this time.

Exactly competition drives innovation. MS is first out the door with this and I'm sure Sony and Nintendo are not only watching this very closely to see how well MS executes but also thinking of what they can do to one up this if it takes off.

Just like Nintendo was first out the door with a practical motion control, which has spurred both MS and Sony to work on something to better it, especially once they saw it take off.

Regards,
SB
 
Exactly competition drives innovation. MS is first out the door with this and I'm sure Sony and Nintendo are not only watching this very closely to see how well MS executes but also thinking of what they can do to one up this if it takes off.

Just like Nintendo was first out the door with a practical motion control, which has spurred both MS and Sony to work on something to better it, especially once they saw it take off.

Ahem... if that's the case, credit where credit is due, EyeToy was first to market with "no controller" UI and games. Natal improved it with zCam (3DV camera) and the skeleton generation (Microsoft).
 
...also thinking of what they can do to one up this if it takes off.

That's the thing, how do they one up this interface?

The software backend of things can always be improved, but the ability to track someone in 3d space, take video, and audio samples is pretty much it.

The only thing I can think which would go beyond would be some type of tactical suit or gloves, but this takes away from the simple ease of use factor and will scare the non-gamer away, not draw them to it.


As for the vitality sensor ... I'm sorry but I don't see that catching on ... at all.




So where do Nintendo and Sony go with this to out-do the Natal?
 
Ahem... if that's the case, credit where credit is due, EyeToy was first to market with "no controller" UI and games. Natal improved it with zCam (3DV camera) and the skeleton generation (Microsoft).

Yes, but they screwed up by not giving it the support it needed. It should have had a bundle package and enough games to support the eyetoy to make it relevant. The other thing is it's limitation in low light rooms.

We'll see how well MS does in supporting Natal, but from what I can tell, they are pushing this thing pretty hard.
 
Yes, but they screwed up by not giving it the support it needed. It should have had a bundle package and enough games to support the eyetoy to make it relevant. The other thing is it's limitation in low light rooms.

Yes, they did not bundle it with the console. EyeToy is one of the most successful console peripherals though, until the guitar came out.

Still doesn't change the fact that Sony was out first with a working product even right this moment.

Microsoft will certainly push Natal hard if they are already appearing on talk shows today to initiate the concept. If they are spending that much money, they don't want the credit to go to someone else (just like any other companies).

So where do Nintendo and Sony go with this to out-do the Natal?

Sony can ride on MS's marketing if they figure out a way to add z-dimension to PS Eye. It already has other form of camera-based recognition anyway (e.g., color, speech, sketch recognition). A cheaper tech may be useful for their CE division too.

Nintendo probably has its own plan based on their latest interview.

Both can also explore mobile gaming.
 
Ahem... if that's the case, credit where credit is due, EyeToy was first to market with "no controller" UI and games. Natal improved it with zCam (3DV camera) and the skeleton generation (Microsoft).

Yup no doubt they were first with the attempt to do controllerless (is that a word? :)) games. But the problem was, they didn't really push it whole heartedly or put a significant push behind it to make it a viable alternate control method.

From the sounds of things, it doesn't appear that MS is going to make that mistake. So if the product ends up going nowhere (like Eye Toy for the most part since it came out) then we won't be able to blame it on a lack of effort.

Succeed or fail, MS is putting their entire company effort (including first parties) behind it.

Now MS just has to hope that what they come up with is compelling enough to move significant numbers and compelling enough to make this an everyday controller.

Makes it interesting to wonder. Was Bungie allowed to go partially due to a lack of interest in doing a Natal focused game? I mean if MS truly is pushing all first party devs to include Natal into existing games or develope Natal centric games, I can see where a primarily FPS oriented company might not feel comfortable with doing that.

Regards,
SB
 
Yup no doubt they were first with the attempt to do controllerless (is that a word? :)) games. But the problem was, they didn't really push it whole heartedly or put a significant push behind it to make it a viable alternate control method.

Err... it is a viable venture for them. The EyeToy camera and games sold millions and made lot's of money for Sony.
Again, it's a product that's out on the market for 5 years. Introducing a better model doesn't mean they suddenly become first on the market. :)

MS's large war chest will most certainly popularize the natural UI and augmented reality space even more.
 
Err... it is a viable venture for them. The EyeToy camera and games sold millions and made lot's of money for Sony.
Again, it's a product that's out on the market for 5 years. Introducing a better model doesn't mean they suddenly become first :)

That wasn't the point I was trying to make. it's been out for 5 years and yet after 5 years, how often do you see it as a main form of control for someone using a PS2 or PS3?

How many games have come out for it in the past 5 years?

That's what I meant by lack of a push to make it a viable alternate controller. Rather than a somewhat niche controller.

I guess I should come up with better terminology for what I mean. :)

Regards,
SB
 
That wasn't the point I was trying to make. it's been out for 5 years and yet after 5 years, how often do you see it as a main form of control for someone using a PS2 or PS3?

How many games have come out for it in the past 5 years?

And how many Natal apps and games are out there today, working for everyone ?

That's what I meant by lack of a push to make it a viable alternate controller. Rather than a somewhat niche controller.

I guess I should come up with better terminology for what I mean. :)

Sure, but the "no controller" concept and product are out today. Sony chose not to expand the business and only focus on their existing (but admittedly huge PS2) gamer market. Some dreamer in Sony dreamt up (or caught on to) the concept and sold it to consumers.
 
And how many Natal apps and games are out there today, working for everyone ?



Sure, but the "no controller" concept and product are out today. Sony chose not to expand the business and only focus on their existing (but admittedly huge PS2) gamer market.

The only comparison that can be made to the Eye Toy would be the Wii controller as those are the only two out on the market. And the Eye Toy doesn't fare too favorably there. But then again that's two somewhat different types of motion control.

Once Natal is out we'll be able to more properly compare how they do...which is why I said...

It appears that MS at least will be putting much more effort behind Natal to push it into being a viable alternate control scheme...

Something that Sony so far hasn't done with the Eye Toy. Although with the PS3 wands, maybe we'll see a huge push with Sony having all their first party devs putting in Eye Toy + Wand related controls?

And as well, Succeed or Fail, MS is putting everything behind Natal. It's a huge gamble, and apparently a gamble Sony wasn't prepared or willing to make when it launched the Eye Toy.

IE - when Eye Toy launched I don't remember Sony stating that all first party devs will be including Eye Toy controls into games starting developement and trying to include controls for it in games currently in developement.

And probably rightfully so, as the the technology was even more in its infancy back around that time.

Regards,
SB
 
The only comparison that can be made to the Eye Toy would be the Wii controller as those are the only two out on the market. And the Eye Toy doesn't fare too favorably there. But then again that's two somewhat different types of motion control.

The Mac doesn't sell as well compared to the PCs. Doesn't mean the desktop interface is sold to consumers by Microsoft first.

EyeToy is a hands free motion sensing scheme. Wiimote is a controller based scheme. They each have their strength. Sony chose to evolve PS Eye by incorporating a controller. Allegedly, this allows them to track fast movement precisely. Sony also continues to invest in new PS Eye technologies. e.g., speech and sketch recognition are recent additions. I have no idea where they want to take the family next. Perhaps their patent pool will have some indication (3D camera is amongst one of them).

EyeToy and Wii's parents chose to market them differently. Still doesn't change the fact that they are both out now, with working titles and sold to millions.

Once Natal is out we'll be able to more properly compare how they do...which is why I said...

It appears that MS at least will be putting much more effort behind Natal to push it into being a viable alternate control scheme...

Something that Sony so far hasn't done with the Eye Toy. Although with the PS3 wands, maybe we'll see a huge push with Sony having all their first party devs putting in Eye Toy + Wand related controls?

According to Tretton's and Kaz's interviews, the developers have started months ago. It's just that all 3 are interested in the same area this time round, but they offer different approaches. Wouldn't be the first time they do that. :)

And as well, Succeed or Fail, MS is putting everything behind Natal. It's a huge gamble, and apparently a gamble Sony wasn't prepared or willing to make when it launched the Eye Toy.

IE - when Eye Toy launched I don't remember Sony stating that all first party devs will be including Eye Toy controls into games starting developement and trying to include controls for it in games currently in developement.

And probably rightfully so, as the the technology was even more in its infancy back around that time.

None of this answer the question who's here first though. That was my only statement earlier. Sony was on the market first with a "no controller" concept.
 
The Mac doesn't sell as well compared to the PCs. Doesn't mean the desktop interface is sold to consumers by Microsoft first.

EyeToy is a hands free motion sensing scheme. Wiimote is a controller based scheme. They each have their strength. Sony chose to evolve PS Eye by incorporating a controller. Allegedly, this allows them to track fast movements precisely. Sony also continues to invest in new PS Eye technologies. e.g., speech and sketch recognition are recent additions. I have no idea where they want to take the family next. Perhaps their patent pool will have some indication (3D camera is amongst one of them).

EyeToy and Wii's parents chose to market them differently. Still doesn't change the fact that they are both out now, with working titles and sold to millions.



According to Tretton's and Kaz's interviews, the developers have started months ago. It's just that all 3 are interested in the same area this time round, but they offer different approaches. Wouldn't be the first time they do that. :)



None of this answer the question who's here first though. That was my only statement earlier. Sony was here first with a "no controller" concept.

Wait a minute has this whole sub thread been about who was first? :D

LoL, sorry couldn't help laughing in real life here.

OK, for the record. My opinion on the first thing...

Between the 3 console makers, yes Sony was most certainly and unconditionally first with a 2 dimensional motion controller that doesn't actually use a physical controller. Additionally it has voice control capabilities.

Nintendo was the first with a 3 dimensional motion control device.

And between those that have launched so far. Nintendo's has been the far more successful because the whole weight of the company was put behind it, as well as the fact it was the only controller.

And while certainly not out yet. At this point it "appears" that MS will be first with a 3 dimensional motion controller that doesn't use a physical controller that also includes voice capabilities and facial recognition.

And the biggest piece of opinion, is that I believe MS will be the first to have a camera based 3d motion controller that can replace the regular controller in more than just a few niche games.

Sure there's all the possibility in the world that they could fail at doing that. However, they are putting a large amount of resources into pushing it to be a mainstream controller that can easily replace the regular controller in many types of applications...

Regards,
SB
 
Yes, marketing using qualifiers :)

And the biggest piece of opinion, is that I believe MS will be the first to have a camera based 3d motion controller that can replace the regular controller in more than just a few niche games.

This is where Microsoft itself is also unsure. Earlier on, they mentioned that Natal does not preclude having a physical controller. For fast-pace and precision-based gaming, it is likely that they will need a physical controller (no matter how simple).

If they are going for a big bang approach, the thing they have to establish here is content. They need a critical mass of content to jump start the experience. If they are going for a slow burn approach (like Sony), then they pick a niche and start from there. In the end, if the concept is viable, both approaches can lead to general adoption. The big bang approach will have bigger expense and risk though. You'll see result (positive or negative) faster consequently.

Sure there's all the possibility in the world that they could fail at doing that. However, they are putting a large amount of resources into pushing it to be a mainstream controller that can easily replace the regular controller in many types of applications...

Again, it depends on the applications. For many tasks, you'll need a controller. For many others, you don't.
 
Again, it depends on the applications. For many tasks, you'll need a controller. For many others, you don't.

Agreed. I don't see steering wheels disappearing from racing games or thumbsticks from first or third person shooters for example. It doesn't preclude a camera system from being an "enhancement" to the normal controls.

I should have cleared that up as to not meaning a replacement for the majority of traditional "core" games you usually see on PS3 and X360, but as a replacement for new types of games or certain types of current games.

Eye Toy has had potential, but Sony haven't really done anything with it other than a niche game here and there. Hopefully that changes with the release of the PS3 wand.

Regards,
SB
 
Agreed. I don't see steering wheels disappearing from racing games or thumbsticks from first or third person shooters for example. It doesn't preclude a camera system from being an "enhancement" to the normal controls.

I should have cleared that up as to not meaning a replacement for the majority of traditional "core" games you usually see on PS3 and X360, but as a replacement for new types of games or certain types of current games.

Their use cases are pretty similar where existing gaming content are concerned. What you mentioned is already here today. That's why I said EyeToy is here first, not because of some meaningless "I'm here first 2D/3D" claim. e.g., In SingStar, you can use voice control or the DS3 to pick song. It makes sense because the players have a mic on hand. In MLB 2009, you use your voice to "teach" the crowd cheers. In EyeToy mini games, you flail around. In Eye of Judgment, the PS Eye recognizes playing cards. In EyePet, you draw objects for Milo^H^H^H^Hyour pet to play. Then in Eyedentify, err... it's like Milo. Many of these don't require accurate 3D positioning. But it's more usable if it does not rely on good lighting (though some applications will require reasonable lighting like color and handwriting recognition).

Traditionally, a key difference between MS's and Sony's approach is consistency. Even if natural interface/augmented reality is added to games "here and there" like Sony, MS will probably make the experience more common and consistent (e.g., integrated into the Blade and XBL UI). This gives the impression that the technology is implemented "everywhere". Since the same gestures can be used in isolated apps, it also simplifies the user experiences and makes it more seamless/pleasant. I think this is the key advantage for MS (Sony is pretty much helpless here).

In any case, a camera based solution is much much more than motion sensing. In fact, Milo -- which does not use 3D motion sensing -- generates more hype and appeals to more people than the flailing body mini-game. If you read the interesting papers in the PS3 controller thread, you'll find advanced image processing techniques to interpret a video too (e.g., deciding whether a burglary is going on in a gas station using a regular security camera). Personally, I am more interested in Natal's 3D imaging capability (even without the generated skeleton).

Eye Toy has had potential, but Sony haven't really done anything with it other than a niche game here and there. Hopefully that changes with the release of the PS3 wand.

PS Eye/EyeToy's potential is still being realized. :)

For broad use, some of the applications are actually filed under Cell programming rather than EyeToy games. The magic is done by the CPU. Unfortunately, for fast, precise, straining, or time consuming activities, the controllers have their advantages (Wii wins). This is probably why Sony chose to extend and integrate the controller experience better with PS Eye here. Their eyes are on gaming.

I actually think that Natal and PS Eye have more interesting applications elsewhere. I am sure we will see very interesting use cases in the near future. Some will be further out. I'm still waiting for Magic Mirror and Eyedentify for example. In particular, Magic Mirror is the perfect app for a 3D camera. I suspect this will be one of the launch apps targeting female non-gamers for Natal.


As for marketing, price point and focus are critical. I have no idea what Sony's plan is (other than trying to make existing and new games work with the new control scheme). Microsoft is going to push for one umbrella and concerted Natal concept to the masses, and that is its strongest card by far. As some pointed out earlier, marketing and software will be the key to winning.
 
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