Microsoft announces external HD-DVD drive for Xbox 360

[ihamoitc2005]

Will

can can can can can.

That's all I hear you say.

The important question is will.

will will will will will. Will some BR content use 32mbps for shorter films? Or will everything default to 20mbps, as seems likely?

Truth be told, I think both formats will likely produce the same quality with roughly the same effective storage (length). I just want one to win quickly so we don't have another DVD-A/SACD mess.

I am not employee at any movie publisher company my friend so I cannot know what "will" (also this always changes) only what "can".

Also, why do you feel "everything default to 20mbps"?

If you had a movie studio and you understood that both Blu-ray and HD-DVD had support for vc-1 and mpeg2, and you had 3 hour film with extra content which format and codec will you choose? One that can have a codec at high bit-rate or one that can only have same codec at low-bit rate? Every studio has this choice.

There are many studios. I think you will see much variations.

 

[AlphaWolf]

There are many studios. I think you will see much variations.

And I think that is a problem. We shall see how it works out. I'd rather have a required minimum standard for quality.

 

[scooby_dooby]

So in situations where low-bit-rate is needed, then codec with better low-bit-rate performance will be used, no? I think this is quite logical.

No. Because low bit-rate is always needed. These disc are not of infinite space, they have very real limits, therefore ALL situations requires a reasonable bit-rate. That's why we haven't seen a single movie encoded at 32mbps or some other very high bit-rate.

Talk of unrealistically high bit-rates is pointless.

 

[randycat99]

You didn't even address the point he was making in what you quoted. Did you even understand his point?

HD-DVD, you are stuck with 16 Mb/s (to fit a typical movie length), so mpeg4 makes a lot of sense, and can do a lot of good.

BR, you have the choice for as much as twice that bitrate (to fit that same typical movie length). Mpeg2 or 4 will do fine there and the video will be higher quality as a direct result of the higher bitrate. The extra capacity and bitrate is an advantage, looking ahead at things that can be done on BR.

 

[inefficient]

can can can can can.

That's all I hear you say.

The important question is will.

will will will will will. Will some BR content use 32mbps for shorter films? Or will everything default to 20mbps, as seems likely?

We are talking about VBR encoders here right?

If so, when they say 20mbps I beleive they mean 20mbps on average - and peak constrained to 36mbps. This seems very reasonable.

Your going to get some high motion scenes which are encoded at 36mbps, and then your still shots or talking head scenes at a much lower bit rate. So on average you would hit 20 something.

The only reason to cap the bitrate is to not exceed the rate it can be read from the disc by a 1x BD or HD-DVD player.

 

[aaronspink]

Truth be told, I think both formats will likely produce the same quality with roughly the same effective storage (length). I just want one to win quickly so we don't have another DVD-A/SACD mess.

We had a DVD-A/SACD mess because the marginal utility of the new formats was judged by the marketplace to be zero. No one bought DVD-A/SACD, it never was given any shelf space. It was a market failure. The real question is can BR/HD-DVD actually get market penetration and more importantly, shelf space.

Aaron Spink
speaking for myself inc.

 

[one]

The real question is can BR/HD-DVD actually get market penetration and more importantly, shelf space.

BD will get larger shelf space than UMD. No, I'm not only referring to the smaller size of a UMD case.

 

[Hardknock]

BD will get larger shelf space than UMD. No, I'm not only referring to the smaller size of a UMD case.

And why is that? Every PSP can take advantage of UMD movies. Not every PS3 owner will be able to take advantage of Blu-Ray movies. And even if they do have an HDTV, they may not have HDMI. It's an unproven market.

 

[Titanio]

And why is that? Every PSP can take advantage of UMD movies. Not every PS3 owner will be able to take advantage of Blu-Ray movies. And even if they do have an HDTV, they may not have HDMI. It's an unproven market.

I think a lot of early adopters of PS3, at least, will have HDTVs (as was the case with X360). Some people may buy Blu-ray regardless of their setup at home anyway, simply thinking it's better quality (not to beat around the bush - there are unquestioning consumers out there, call them dumb if you like).

On the HDMI issue, we still don't know what the story is with that on Blu-ray.

And finally, more than all that, on the flipside to your points - while UMD is a format confined to one machine, Blu-ray isn't just about PS3, it's much broader than that. It's also an extension to a market that is very much proven indeed - home video in general - whereas portable video was really starting from scratch.

And finally, the BDA as a whole will push this a lot harder with retailers than UMD was (which "just" had Sony behind it - which isn't to diminish that influence, and Sony will be to the fore in terms of Blu-ray marketing I'm sure, but there are a lot more companies involved with Blu-ray).

 

[one]

And why is that? Every PSP can take advantage of UMD movies. Not every PS3 owner will be able to take advantage of Blu-Ray movies. And even if they do have an HDTV, they may not have HDMI. It's an unproven market.

Why you limit Blu-ray viewers to PS3 owners is beyond me. As for the advantage of BD, if you prefer VHS to DVD because a crappy TV set can't appreciate the full merit of DVD, then fine.

 

[mckmas8808]

And why is that? Every PSP can take advantage of UMD movies. Not every PS3 owner will be able to take advantage of Blu-Ray movies. And even if they do have an HDTV, they may not have HDMI. It's an unproven market.

You must not have an HDTV with HD content I see. Nobody in their right mind with HD content will say it's an unproven market.

 

[Bigus Dickus]

Unproven seems a bad choice of words. Small is more fitting. Hopefully we are finally in a phase of decent growth rate, but we have been told that HDTV was near its "taking off point" for, what, the better part of a decade now?

 

[Sis]

Unproven seems a bad choice of words. Small is more fitting. Hopefully we are finally in a phase of decent growth rate, but we have been told that HDTV was near its "taking off point" for, what, the better part of a decade now?

I would suggest that the HDTV market is not unproven but an HD disc format is.

.Sis

 

[DeathKnight]

As for the advantage of BD, if you prefer VHS to DVD because a crappy TV set can't appreciate the full merit of DVD, then fine.

Even with a "crappy" TV set there's still a very noticeable difference between DVD and VHS. DVD's a digital format and it completely flexed the capabilities of standard definition (unlike VHS). Now, if you have a Blue-ray disc player (or even HD-DVD) downscaling the high definition resolution to standard definition the difference between it and regular DVD's will be very small to negligible. You're basically negating the entire reason these two new competing formats were created.

You really can't compare BD/HD-DVD to DVD with standard definition the same way you can compare DVD to VHS.

 

[mckmas8808]

I would suggest that the HDTV market is not unproven but an HD disc format is.

.Sis

Well I guess those millions of people (like me) that have a HDTV don't want HD movies even though we paid thousands of dollars for the TV.

Point being we didn't buy these TV's for nothing.

 

[Hardknock]

You must not have an HDTV with HD content I see. Nobody in their right mind with HD content will say it's an unproven market.

See this post:

I would suggest that the HDTV market is not unproven but an HD disc format is.

.Sis

Thanks Sis

We were talking about shelf space for Blu-Ray Vs. UMDs.. I have no idea what mckmas is talking about..

 

[mckmas8808]

See this post:

Again I and many other HDTV owner are not going to buy a HDTV and not want to look at HD movies. If you are referring to downloading or streaming HD movie content over the internet to your HDTV set that's is what's not proven. Physical discs are proven.

 

[Hardknock]

Again I and many other HDTV owner are not going to buy a HDTV and not want to look at HD movies. If you are referring to downloading or streaming HD movie content over the internet to your HDTV set that's is what's not proven. Physical discs are proven.

Who was arguing otherwise? You seem confused.

 

[Sis]

Well I guess those millions of people (like me) that have a HDTV don't want HD movies even though we paid thousands of dollars for the TV.

Point being we didn't buy these TV's for nothing.

No, I do see this side (and in fact, if you remember my earlier discussions, I really believed both formats would be complete flops for lack of consumer interest). I've come around to seeing that there may be potential for this market. But I'm still not sure how you convince someone that 1080p HD content is vastly superior to 480p widescreen without showing them side by side--and maybe that is "how". And if you get it free in the PS3 then I'm sure that'll allow people to sample it...

But I stand by the point, and regardless of that I would add that since both formats are not yet released, it is the definition of an unproven market.

.Sis

 

[Hardknock]

Unproven seems a bad choice of words. Small is more fitting. Hopefully we are finally in a phase of decent growth rate, but we have been told that HDTV was near its "taking off point" for, what, the better part of a decade now?

HDTVs aren't a "small" market in the U.S. anymore. It's quite large actually. But when I say "market" I am refering to:

1. How many PS3 owners will own an HDTV?
2. How many of those owners will have HDMI?
3. How many are dissatisfied with the quality of DVDs on their HDTVs?
4. And of those that meet the first 3 qualifications, how many want to invest in a format that has no guarantee of being the victor in the format war?


When it all comes down to it, there's no way of foreseeing what percentage of PS3 buyers are going to want (or even have the capabilities) to play Blu-Ray movies. Thus unproven. I strongly doubt retailers are going to allocate large amounts of shelf space for an "unproven" disc format on an unproven market (we all know the PS3 is the trojan horse). They'll test the waters first....