Metal Gear Solid 4 post:#1067

Discussion in 'Console Gaming' started by Ben-Nice, Apr 1, 2008.

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  1. deepbrown

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    I think in this respect it's very valid to call Kojima the creator of MGS, doesn't mean we're ignoring everyone else.
     
  2. deepbrown

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    This makes sense - the Cell didn't allow this.
     
  3. Darkon

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    How so ? It's more of ram issue like I said above.


    Well lets hope we get document of mgs4 then or that one of junkerHQ/kojima worshippers interview one of his programmers and perhaps I'll and up being right after all .


     
  4. Shifty Geezer

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    I can see the point, but that specific example sounds like he's focussing his energies in the wrong direction. I'm a big fan of raytracing, having spent years loving the idea of simulating light properly. It's great to be able to create an object made of 'glass' and have it refract naturally. But at the end of the day, if a fake looks as good and is ten times faster, there's nowt wrong with it. Why have a living jungle simulated for a shooter if the player's experience in that jungle environment spans all of a few hours? The jungle doesn't need a growth model for that. Instead a fakery set is used. I mean, if they wanted movies could plant a jungle and film it after a hundred years, but there's good reason why they don't... ;)

    So if he really was trying to add realism beyond what was necessary for the actual game, that's a bad call. If, let's say, Kojima has implemented a true, natural weathering simulation where textures are affected by weather and can erode over hundreds of years, but the game itself takes place over only a few days, he'd have been better off not bothering. If, on the other hand, he's talking more about AI and battlefield simulation, then that's probably fair enough. Though in that point, the AI demonstrated so far isn't particularly advanced, or at least certainly isn't realistic. Which I think is good for the game, but it's more of a 'faked set' than 'real life' sort of design.
     
  5. deepbrown

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    How so? Creating a fully destructible world, and one that grows etc - is very CPU heavy. Of course Ram will be included, but saying the Cell didn't meet his expectations in this area is a valid interpretation.
     
  6. deepbrown

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    Perhaps this is the conclusion they met. But what I also think he's getting at is being able to create a set of rules etc that will build dynamic environments that stretch beyond linear gameplay. And an environment you can destroy, and will also grow back (MGS3 is incredibly linear, but gorgeous and exciting nonetheless) - this is somethig the Far Cry 2 team are doing and have achieved. I've yet to see what it really looks like on console platforms though. Far Cry 2 looks graphically great on the PC hardware they have set up, and though they say the console versions will have exactly the same gameplay and physics etc - they do say the graphics won't be as good.

    If Kojima was trying to achieve similar, but felt the environments had to be too small, or the graphics reduced too much, then he would go for your fake propped up world.

    Remember Kojima was thinking out of the box, and always has - hardware will always hold him back, as he said in reference to MGS3.
     
  7. Darkon

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  8. Darkon

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    oh please, both cell and Xecpu could handle it, one better then the other of course.

    MGS4 isn't a graphical showcase to begin with, and kojima wasn't aiming for mgs4 to be a graphical showcase what he wanted was, i quote myself yet again

    If ubi can achieve the world he was aiming for or close to it then he has no excuses and it certainly isn't cells fault, ram sure, cell no, frankly i highly doubt mgs4 is cpu or gpu demanding i mean look at it ......1280x1080 res and 60fps would somewhat redeem mgs4 though.


    Now i have to go give myself a whipping and 20 hail kojimas
     
    #108 Darkon, Apr 20, 2008
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  9. Neb

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    I am not sure if Far Cry 2 will implement the real-time vegetation regrow system (more offline sector?). I remember a video tech talk with a dev saying it wont be used ingame IIRC. Though that shouldn't be so hard on system or? I mean settlers 6 has visible accelerated 3D vegetation regrowth of quite high quality.

    But looking at the early MGS4 videos he Kojima and team aimed quite high, Snake with 6000 vertices for mustache and 60000 vertices for hair.
     
  10. Neb

    Neb Iron "BEAST" Man
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    It uses quite some post-processing effects aswell as shadowing, high polgyon amounts etc. that at (if really 60fps and true 720p) then it is quite some rendering to do.
     
  11. deepbrown

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    Well I was at a demonstration and they showed off the ingame growing and said all platforms will have it ingame. And it looks very impressive.
     
  12. deepbrown

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    I don't think Ubi has achieved the world he's looking for and I don't think anyone will for a long time.

    And I'm doubtful the console version will look as good as MGS4. MGS4 will be a graphical showpiece - I have no doubts that its varied locations will blow us away. I still don't understand how KP got a field of moving flowers, with particles and effected by character movements etc working on the PS2.
     
    #112 deepbrown, Apr 20, 2008
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  13. Shifty Geezer

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    Both these examples are referencing games not out yet! Might be worth holding back until PS3 Far Cry and MGS are running on the same hardware to see what devs have achieved with it ;)
     
  14. Darkon

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    Close enough minus the AI, but FC 2 isn't out yet as shifty pointed out, so forget it.

    Meh, zone of the enders battle at Aumaan Crevasse, now there is something to be impressed about.
     
    #114 Darkon, Apr 20, 2008
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  15. deepbrown

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    I've experienceed a 30 minute walkthrough of Far Cry 2 and it's not what Kojima was talking about.

    Meh? There's lots of impressive games out there. But, Meh for MGS3? I say Pft.
     
    #115 deepbrown, Apr 20, 2008
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  16. Darkon

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    No, it was more or less, don't make me dig up old interviews.


    mgs3 was somewhat impressive except for the part what you described
     
  17. deepbrown

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    OK. MGS3 is kind of impressive except for the ending with a huge field of flowers reacting to every movement, with petals flying everywhere. Ook. :shock:

    Replaying it now - it's not only impressive on PS2, it's giving "next-gen" games a run for their money in foliage interaction.
     
  18. Darkon

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    I’ll give you a point on the petals but vegetation reacting to your movement was throughout the fucking game, further more that environment was one of the tiniest in the game and only had 2 characters + wildlife.

    Now lets compare it to another area in the game, Syvatogornj East(sp?), that area is bigger then the flower field, the area itself is more varied/packed, has more wildlife , more characters (up to 7 guards on extreme ) and it rains there.

    Can you see why I’m not impressed with the flower field part …

    Seriosly play ZOE 2 now that was impressive
     
    #118 Darkon, Apr 21, 2008
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  19. deepbrown

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    http://www.next-gen.biz/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=9974&Itemid=59

    Exciting

    MGS was what? 8 hours? MGS2...12hours? MGS3...16hours? MGS4....possibly longer.

    This is certainly the best written preview I've read.

    Oh and don't remember seeing this before:

    [​IMG]
     
    #119 deepbrown, Apr 21, 2008
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  20. Nesh

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    That was from one of the cut scenes :)
    The final battle was still impressive in its own way. The amount of flowers/vegetation was unbelievably a lot more and reacted much more realistically to your movements than the other occasions. I was impressed more than the other environments by it
     
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