Metal Gear Solid 4 post:#1067

[Shifty Geezer]

This'll be an interesting game to analyse then. Kojima says graphics they're not where they want to be, using 100% of Cell, because it's not powerful enough. We'll have other titles to compare MGS4 with to see what other devs can achieve with less than 100% Cell utilization. Unless they were expecting procedural content creation en masse and don't have the CPU resources for it, I'm not seeing what the limits are that they have which other titles don't, especially going forwards.

 

[deepbrown]

This'll be an interesting game to analyse then. Kojima says graphics they're not where they want to be, using 100% of Cell, because it's not powerful enough. We'll have other titles to compare MGS4 with to see what other devs can achieve with less than 100% Cell utilization. Unless they were expecting procedural content creation en masse and don't have the CPU resources for it, I'm not seeing what the limits are that they have which other titles don't, especially going forwards.

Well I think he was pretty taken with the PS3 and Cell in the original TGS trailer...just watch until the end...you'll see that MKII runs on a Cell Processor and that "The Cell Processor is the key to winning the console war." (I was surprised he says "console" Even more surprising is the running of Killzone 2 footage and the duck demo. http://www.gametrailers.com/player/8346.html?type=

So yes, Kojima was caught by the hype - the hype that made him think his game would look like Killzone 2, perhaps?

 

[ShaidarHaran]

Well I think he was pretty taken with the PS3 and Cell in the original TGS trailer...just watch until the end...you'll see that MKII runs on a Cell Processor and that "The Cell Processor is the key to winning the console war." (I was surprised he says "console" Even more surprising is the running of Killzone 2 footage and the duck demo. http://www.gametrailers.com/player/8346.html?type=

So yes, Kojima was caught by the hype - the hype that made him think his game would look like Killzone 2, perhaps?

I don't think Kojima realizes (or can explain) that the technical limitations his team is running into is one of memory, not compute power.

 

[Darkon]

This'll be an interesting game to analyse then. Kojima says graphics they're not where they want to be, using 100% of Cell, because it's not powerful enough. We'll have other titles to compare MGS4 with to see what other devs can achieve with less than 100% Cell utilization. Unless they were expecting procedural content creation en masse and don't have the CPU resources for it, I'm not seeing what the limits are that they have which other titles don't, especially going forwards.

I don't think it's the graphics koji is disappointed with really.

Remember the interviews, kojima wanted the world to be ala Far Cry 2 and have complex artificial intelligence routines giving characters their own set of emotions and mood swings.

AI seems to be very, very good but not what he wanted, so far it seems the sound was the only thing where koji is pleased about.

I think the issue was more about amount of ram then cpu power.

I don't think Kojima realizes (or can explain) that the technical limitations his team is running into is one of memory, not compute power.

Or perhaps his team thought they could use cell for some heavy compression/decompression, although it doesn't matter what kind of compression cell is capable of if the RSX doesn't support it or am i wrong ?

 

[deepbrown]

I don't think Kojima realizes (or can explain) that the technical limitations his team is running into is one of memory, not compute power.

Depends thorougly on what he's talking about.

 

[Neb]

Hmm so this game takes full use of the Cell CPU. I assume then RSX is quite well utilized to. But even though the PS3 is being utilized to high levels itdoesn't mean the game underdelivers right?

I mean he might have aimed for 'Pluto' but "only" reached 'Mars' and though for him that is way below his goals and a disappointment. But then not many games reach or pass 'Mars'.

 

[deepbrown]

Hmm so this game takes full use of the Cell CPU. I assume then RSX is quite well utilized to. But even though the PS3 is being utilized to high levels itdoesn't mean the game underdelivers right?

I mean he might have aimed for 'Pluto' but "only" reached 'Mars' and though for him that is way below his goals and a disappointment. But then not many games reach or pass 'Mars'.

MGS4 will still be incredible. He shoots way beyond other developers in his vision, and it'll still be incredible despite limitations. He was heavily limited with the PS2 also. From the previews we've read, and the views of the journalists that have played it...it's going to be great.

 

[Cornsnake]

With all talk about the difficulty of making the most of cell, do we really believe he is using 100% of cell.? There may not be a lot that can improved upon, but even he will probably get more out of it next time.

 

[Bludd]

I think a PC version of MGS4 using mouse and keyboard will be much more playable than the older ones with the semi-fixed camera.

 

[Laa-Yosh]

Some people seem to forget the talk about how the first PS3 screenshots seemed to be inferior to the first demo... seems like it wasn't just empty talk, and the game's graphics really had to be scaled back a bit.

 

[Butta]

Imagine if this turns out to be true:

Originally Posted by Quaz51
for now my hypothesis is that MGO and MGS4 are perhaps in 1024x576, just hypotesis based on some clue and insight , not verified of course (MGS4 isn't available and MGO start only 21 april)

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I don't think it's the graphics koji is disappointed with really.

"Game-wise, it's pretty close to the original vision: you sneak into the battlefield and can choose whether to do a stealth game or interfere with the battle more directly. But the graphic, side things like motion-blending and the size of the map, totally was not accomplished to my original vision - to my satisfaction.

Map size being graphics? I dunno.

I think the issue was more about amount of ram then cpu power.

Possibly, but Kojima likely knows what he's talking about and he didn't say RAM.

I remember saying three years ago that we wanted to create something revolutionary, but in reality we couldn't really do that because of the CPU. We're using the Cell engine to its limit., actually. Please don't get me wrong, I'm not criticizing the PS3 machine, it's just that we weren't really aware of what the full-spec PS3 offered - we were creating something we couldn't entirely see.

I don't think anyone can accurately second-guess the man. Someone needs to hit him up with an interview. After the game's release! A postmortem would go down well in the industry though, I think.

 

[Nesh]

He wanted a completely destructible world. Hence "no where to hide"

 

[deepbrown]

With all talk about the difficulty of making the most of cell, do we really believe he is using 100% of cell.? There may not be a lot that can improved upon, but even he will probably get more out of it next time.

He's using a 100% of what they're able to get a hold of. I'm sure they were using a 100% of the PS2 with MGS2 - they then made MGS3 with jungle spaces, moving grass etc etc.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

The wording's open to interpretation, but we're also reading a translation from the native language which is going to colour things. I don't think we can really pin down what the problem was that Kojima hit against.

 

[deepbrown]

The wording's open to interpretation, but we're also reading a translation from the native language which is going to colour things. I don't think we can really pin down what the problem was that Kojima hit against.

I think what I'm saying is true no matter what Kojima has said.

 

[Neb]

He's using a 100% of what they're able to get a hold of. I'm sure they were using a 100% of the PS2 with MGS2 - they then made MGS3 with jungle spaces, moving grass etc etc.

But the a large difference was that MGS2 ran at 60fps and MGS3 at 30fps. That would allow them to do quite a bit more.

 

[Heinrich4]

My 2 cents about thoughts,opinions Kojima.

Kojima starts probably with sdk Alpha with cell 2.4GHz with 8 active SPUs and dual GPU SLI Geforce 6800Ultras or Geforce 7800GTX with 38.4GB/sec/16 ROPs bandwidth and believe in great improvement in sdk final with cell 3.2GHz + RSX...

But it seens some kind of desapointment with they believe to be possible at TGS05 with use first sdk alpha whem they want like 720P at 60fps with "some Killzone 2 CG sensation".

(i remenber at tgs5 at see MGS4 many peopple - include me - starts believing a full Killzone CG E305 graphics )

 

[patsu]

Kojima starts probably with sdk Alpha with cell 2.4GHz with 8 active SPUs and dual GPU SLI Geforce 6800Ultras or Geforce 7800GTX with 38.4GB/sec/16 ROPs bandwidth and believe in great improvement in sdk final with cell 3.2GHz + RSX...

On a scale of 1 to 10, he rated MGS4 a solid 1 (punt intended) versus his original vision.

I'd say he started with a vivid imagination of the MGS world first (See his comments on fully destructible environment). I can't help but think that even the prototype was an early warning to him but it took time to sink in.


This is the last episode of his twenty-year adventure. It is not unreasonable for him to do a post-mortem, critic his own work, and revisit his ambitions. It seems that his next interest is portable gaming (where the visual is not that great). I would love it if he leaves behind the visuals and focuses on gameplay. MGS: Portable Ops is one of my most favorite PSP games (second only to Patapon).

 

[inefficient]

New tidbits from the creator of MGS.

http://kotaku.com/381412/kojima-disappointed-with-metal-gear-solid-4

Even though he is the lead designer/director I don't like it when 1 person gets to be called the "creator" of a game.

I actually really dislike the way gamers and the media latch on to certain people while many many key people behind the scenes get totally ignored. I guess people just need their heros to put on a pedestal.