Metal Gear Solid 4 post:#1067

[Cheezdoodles]

My idea of stealth is not letting anyone know you were there in the first place. Leaving everything as it was as when you got there. Only achieving your goals.

What he did is easy and he got spotted several times.

Exactly. Playing stealthy action like that is not particularly hard, and its close to what im playing (but i play with real guns, as darts dont appeal to me, and some of the guns are sweet with custumization.)

 

[Cheezdoodles]

ok, so which exactly are those cutscenes you are refering to ?

The ones where you cannot zoom or do anything are not realtime i reckon. Dont get me wrong, some of the realtime cutscenes are amazing, and it really makes me believe the PS3 future games are going to be amazing. Some of the realtime scenes are breathtaking, the lighting is sometimes perfect, (shadow res isn't perfect thought but i dont care about that), and i cannot wait til games will look like this in realtime.

 

[deepbrown]

My idea of stealth is not letting anyone know you were there in the first place. Leaving everything as it was as when you got there. Only achieving your goals.

What he did is easy and he got spotted several times.

He didn't get spotted once - if you are spotted there's a call to fellows and a caution countdown (note, i don't say an alert, I said caution). What he did is not easy, it's frigging hard - just you try to do all of that with as much style as him. I only wish I could, because it looks like so much fun. I find it very hard to get through areas without an alert, but that is my goal - he shows how to do it....with style. I wish I could play through the game like that.

He leaves everything as it was, as everyone wakes up not knowing what the hell went on.

You're making up your own rules of stealth - he is playing through stealthfully in accordance to the rules of MGS4.

And how is holding two people up at the same time without being spotted easy? Make your video of you doing it now please.

 

[obonicus]

The ones where you cannot zoom or do anything are not realtime i reckon. Dont get me wrong, some of the realtime cutscenes are amazing, and it really makes me believe the PS3 future games are going to be amazing. Some of the realtime scenes are breathtaking, the lighting is sometimes perfect, (shadow res isn't perfect thought but i dont care about that), and i cannot wait til games will look like this in realtime.

But which ones, exactly? We're having a hard time understanding which cutscenes look much better than others. I only noticed one non-interactive cutscene, though I'm sure there are more, and I only noticed because I tried to zoom near the end and noticed I couldn't.

 

[deepbrown]

The ones where you cannot zoom or do anything are not realtime i reckon. Dont get me wrong, some of the realtime cutscenes are amazing, and it really makes me believe the PS3 future games are going to be amazing. Some of the realtime scenes are breathtaking, the lighting is sometimes perfect, (shadow res isn't perfect thought but i dont care about that), and i cannot wait til games will look like this in realtime.

There's ONE that I know of that isn't realtime - the one at the end of Act 3. Name the others. And it doesn't look any different to the others - in fact the best graphics in the game are realtime (happens in Act 5). The only reason that cutscene isn't realtime is most likely due to them not hitting a solid framerate with all the water - everything else looks exactly the same.

 

[Cornsnake]

I'm disappointed the game even allows you to play this way on the highest difficulty settings. In previous MGS's you wouldn't have a tranquilliser gun or enough ammo, and being spotted was gameover immediately without taking their sweet time to radio anyone. But this is MGS for the mainstream. An option for the fans the previous hard settings would have been nice. But MGS4 probably wasn't designed with this in mind.

 

[Cheezdoodles]

There's ONE that I know of that isn't realtime - the one at the end of Act 3. Name the others. And it doesn't look any different to the others

Thats the most impressive scene thought, with the amount of soliders and water and crap going on atleast so far (im at the beginning of act5 now, goddamn that act is by far the hardest one so far. Much harder than the others so far.)

Im not talking graphical fidelity in the cutscenes, i was more talking about how much was going on the scale of the thing. That one would have been impressive to me to be in real time.

I love how they render certain vechicles (if not all) they look very "real". The realtime cutscenes are sometimes very impressive, but then again, tech demo and gameplay are to different beasts alltogether.

 

[betan]

I have no real complaints about the graphics, audio, gameplay or even the loading. Does the loading get worse later in the game? What I played had some loading, but it seemed acceptable.

Loading is pretty fast in the game which makes me love HDD. Streaming would be much better of course.

Overall, I wouldn't say the game differs greatly from my experience with the previous games

Much easier sneaking, much easier shooting, I don't know how anybody can say that. :/

I feel like the cut scenes and radio coms take me out of the experience because they're way too long. I'd like to skip them, but then I feel I'd have no idea what was going on.

The game provides three buttons to fast forward codecs.

And the cutscene haters here all have valid points regarding them.
Let me ask another simple question then.

Would you guys prefer GTA4 like cutscenes, poor main story, unrelated time wasters, unimaginative and repetitive settings, poor camera, bad models, bad animation?

I haven't seen anybody complain about GTA4 cutscenes.
Again I'm not asking how you would shape MGS4 cutscenes to your liking (we got it, you would make them shorter, I would too, at least get rid of the stalls), I'm asking would you want them to be more like any other game?

And to be honest if your knowledge of MGS story is limited to the fact that there is scientist and a soldier, I really recommend not bothering with the cutscenes at all. The action packed stuff is online anyway.

 

[Neb]

Um the non-realtime cutscenes are the most impressive ones, (why do you think they aren't done in realtime).

That should be quite clear to anyone!

 

[deepbrown]

Thats the most impressive scene thought, with the amount of soliders and water and crap going on atleast so far (im at the beginning of act5 now, goddamn that act is by far the hardest one so far. Much harder than the others so far.)

Im not talking graphical fidelity in the cutscenes, i was more talking about how much was going on the scale of the thing. That one would have been impressive to me to be in real time.

I love how they render certain vechicles (if not all) they look very "real". The realtime cutscenes are sometimes very impressive, but then again, tech demo and gameplay are to different beasts alltogether.

There's more going on in the chase just before that cutscene

Any other non-realtime cutscenes?

 

[Scott_Arm]

Much easier sneaking, much easier shooting, I don't know how anybody can say that. :/

Do you mean you don't know how anybody can say they're the same, or say that those things are easier?

And the cutscene haters here all have valid points regarding them.
Let me ask another simple question then.

Would you guys prefer GTA4 like cutscenes, poor main story, unrelated time wasters, unimaginative and repetitive settings, poor camera, bad models, bad animation?

Are cutscenes, time wasters, repetitive settings, poor camera, bad models and bad animation related somehow?

The GTA cutscenes are pretty mediocre, but at least they're more concise. At least early on the Niko is somewhat interesting, and the story seems to build and move quickly. Once you get relocated to the second safe house, the story goes downhill quick and never recovers. But the cutscenes are mostly pretty brief. I could have done without quite a few of them though, because they story, or non-existant story, was largely irrelevant. The cutscenes kind of turned into mission briefings by that point.

I haven't seen anybody complain about GTA4 cutscenes.
Again I'm not asking how you would shape MGS4 cutscenes to your liking (we got it, you would make them shorter, I would too, at least get rid of the stalls), I'm asking would you want them to be more like any other game?

And to be honest if your knowledge of MGS story is limited to the fact that there is scientist and a soldier, I really recommend not bothering with the cutscenes at all. The action packed stuff is online anyway.

I don't think there's a particular game that has exceptionally well done cutscenes that could be used as a model for any other game. I'd prefer if games moved away from them and found ways to integrated the story into the game. But if you're going to do them, have some creative directing, high production values, some good writing and keep things concise. I'd say MGS4 succeeds at the production values, is probably hit and miss with directing (my experience was miss) and fails at the other two.

My lack of knowledge of the previous games really does hinder my experience quite a bit. I can follow the story, but I don't have any investment in the characters. I've missed how the characters were fleshed out, if they ever were, so I don't really care about any of them. And that little kid is annoying. I was tempted to skip over that scene, but I suffered through.

 

[deepbrown]

My lack of knowledge of the previous games really does hinder my experience quite a bit. I can follow the story, but I don't have any investment in the characters. I've missed how the characters were fleshed out, if they ever were, so I don't really care about any of them. And that little kid is annoying. I was tempted to skip over that scene, but I suffered through.

You really are missing out. MGS4 is the last game of a series...it's tying everything together. Without this, it would just seem like lots (too many) random characters just jumping in on the action, with inexplicable decision making.

 

[Cheezdoodles]

The dialogue isn't terrible throughout. The delivery is sometimes terrible (Otacon's whimpering disturbs me, Drebin isn't great) but most of the dialogue itself is well written and goes in depth into what fans want to know. There's a massive amount of depth in the story, characters backstory etc.

Well written dialoge???

How is repeating the exact same information 3 times in one 15 minute cutscene good dialoge? (first encounter with drebin?)

I understand that you may be the fan of the series, having played all the games and being up to date with the story, im not, however the stories that are told in this game are atleast for me to poorly written \ uninteresting that i cannot understand how this can be considered good dialoge?

I understand that it gives you alot of closure etc which may be interesting, for me so many conversations where just unnencessary. Like the 5 mantis. They all got pretty much the same story, couldn't they atleast be a tad more creative? The pacing of the conversations feels kinda slow for me, dunno why.

They also tend to repeat themselves, or try to elaborate the same topic over and over which makes it boring for us new MGS4 players (but i understand that this can be rewarding to get full closure for fans of the series)

 

[patsu]

My lack of knowledge of the previous games really does hinder my experience quite a bit. I can follow the story, but I don't have any investment in the characters. I've missed how the characters were fleshed out, if they ever were, so I don't really care about any of them. And that little kid is annoying. I was tempted to skip over that scene, but I suffered through.

You can do what I did
Take control of Mk II during the cutscene and scavenge for goodies in Nomad.

I don't care for the cutscenes too except for brief moments here and there. The rest of the game still hold up extremely well even if you skip them (Which Act are you in now ?).

 

[DrJay24]

Well written dialoge???

I'm new to the series, I'm no a fan and I think most of the dialogue is pretty good for a game, though long winded at times. What games have such good writing that your standards are so high? Gears of War? Ninja Gaiden? 90% of games have almost no story and grunting that is passed for dialogue, so MGS4 is refreshing.

I filled in the backstory with the Game Trailers retrospective and Wikipedia, that helps some with the confusion.

 

[Cheezdoodles]

Some roleplaying games come into mind... why do people here allways try to find the worst possible comparison to make their points? GeoW story is just an excuse to kill people, it has like 5 minutes of dialoge?

 

[RobertR1]

I'm new to the series, I'm no a fan and I think most of the dialogue is pretty good for a game, though long winded at times. What games have such good writing that your standards are so high? Gears of War? Ninja Gaiden? 90% of games have almost no story and grunting that is passed for dialogue, so MGS4 is refreshing.

I filled in the backstory with the Game Trailers retrospective and Wikipedia, that helps some with the confusion.

Different genre's and objective. Story is a big deal and a large appeal of MGS. If that wasn't the case you would not see super long cutscenes and tons of communication. By my account, I have likely spent atleast as much time in cutscenes and communicaton vs actual game play during the first 3 acts. Do you seriously think the dialogue/acting/backstory by the B&B crew is even passable for decent? The really awesome cut scenes have been the Raiden fight, Beginning of game, End of act 3. That's briliant stuff but the B&B is more laughable than Ninja Gaiden story/dialouge/acting.

No one is buying NG2 for story. Gears is the same way but I find the Gears dialogue fun and amsuing.

 

[patsu]

The cutscenes can use some serious editing.

I like all the BnB fights and their "inner" beauty. I was hoping to be able to control them though... say, if one of them turn against Liquid (*sigh* may be in MGO then).

RobertR1, there are other interesting moments in Act 4 and 5. My personal favorite fights are there. I think the "long windedness" became worse in Act 5 (even more backstories I don't care for ;-) ).

EDIT: Btw, is there any way to get hold of the "Making ..." video without buying the Limited Edition ?

 

[Dr. Meaty]

Sorry if this has been discussed somewhere already, but now that a lot of you guys have played through MGS4, does anybody have a good idea as to exactly why this game is so huge that DVD9 would be totally out of the question? I'm not trying to instigate, I'm just curious because I haven't played it. I thought that maybe there were a lot of HD cinematics, but judging by this thread, (and every other game in the series) that doesn't seem to be the case.
Are there really THAT many unique art assets/textures/dialogue in this game or is it something else? Inogeddit.

 

[betan]

Do you mean you don't know how anybody can say they're the same, or say that those things are easier?

"the same".

Are cutscenes, time wasters, repetitive settings, poor camera, bad models and bad animation related somehow?

In case of GTA4 cutscenes yes, in other words I'm not talking about gameplay if that was the confusion.

The GTA cutscenes are pretty mediocre, but at least they're more concise.

Since there is fairly long cutscenes before each mission, I wouldn't really say concise.
Most of them felt like made only because it is a "next-gen" GTA now.

At least early on the Niko is somewhat interesting,

Yes he was, too bad only very early on though.

and the story seems to build and move quickly. Once you get relocated to the second safe house, the story goes downhill quick and never recovers. But the cutscenes are mostly pretty brief.

It wasn't brief, I didn't time it or anything but some felt like really "long" which I assume MGS4 feels like to people who don't care.

I could have done without quite a few of them though,

most I would say, save for a couple of smart dialogs here and there

because they story, or non-existant story, was largely irrelevant. The cutscenes kind of turned into mission briefings by that point.

That would be generous

I don't think there's a particular game that has exceptionally well done cutscenes that could be used as a model for any other game. I'd prefer if games moved away from them and found ways to integrated the story into the game.

Perfectly valid opinion, but even if everyone agrees with you (which I doubt, especially after MGS4), it's not trivial.
But then the question is, for someone who don't like cutscenes, how objectively can you rate them?
I clearly remember you complaining about long cutscenes before the game came out.

But if you're going to do them, have some creative directing, high production values, some good writing and keep things concise. I'd say MGS4 succeeds at the production values, is probably hit and miss with directing (my experience was miss) and fails at the other two.

My experience is that MGS4 has some excellent writing and directing, despite poor story, poor dialogs (lost in translation maybe? Or Japanese way of doing things? Possibly, I donno, maybe not). The term "production value" doesn't mean a thing by itself.
And yes, it's creative, not only the directing from a game story telling point of view, but also Kojima's whole approach to gaming is the most creative piece of work I have seen in recent memory. I only wish his approach to cinematic directing didn't emulate silver screen so much, it wasn't bad at all (best in business indeed), but considering he has more freedom with invisible flying cameras I would have expected more.

My lack of knowledge of the previous games really does hinder my experience quite a bit. I can follow the story, but I don't have any investment in the characters. I've missed how the characters were fleshed out, if they ever were, so I don't really care about any of them.

It's not just about character development (for most I don't really care either), not even about story, it's about all the smart and subtle references you people are missing (in addition to the obvious but still creative ones).
You may not like any previous MGSs, but MGS4 rewards people who played (or endured) them really generously.

And that little kid is annoying. I was tempted to skip over that scene, but I suffered through.

For me, Naomi is one of the most annoying characters ever, Sunny is pretty good, except for the ending.

Different genre's and objective. Story is a big deal and a large appeal of MGS. If that wasn't the case you would not see super long cutscenes and tons of communication.

We went to a movie last weekend, Jack Black's Kung Fu Panda. It has one of those most unimaginative stories, yet we loved every minute of the movie. I don't remember any gameplay though.
Just felt like sharing.

No one is buying NG2 for story. Gears is the same way but I find the Gears dialogue fun and amsuing.

Sure you do.

The cutscenes can use some serious editing.

I think fast forward and rewind would solve a lot of problems.