Metal Gear Solid 4 post:#1067

[Shifty Geezer]

I did not like the controls at first until I got used to them now I think they are great, I felt the same way about Warhawk now I can't stop playing it : )

That's true for a lot of games, or indeed other activities. The trick to extending your reach is to make the learning process simple enough that no-one gets scared off. Put MGS4 in a 'casuals' hands and they'll give up in a wink, whereas something with simple controls they'll actually try the game before forming an opinion. The balancing act is in game complexity versus ease of use. Clearly more functionality and options means more complex controls, but in those cases the ideal would be to stratified the controls into basic and advanced actions. Keep the basics ready to hand, and only include complex controls for less-used behaviours. That said, there's a good argument that MGS4's developers fairly couldn't give a rat's arse about casual gamers and are happy to produce something with a view to 'well learn to play it properly you lazy bum!'

 

[Cheezdoodles]

I'm all for finding fault in a game where it's due, no game is perfect after all, but repetitive fault finding in every aspect of what is widely regarded to be a pretty decent game? If you dislike the game so much, why not just stop playing it?!!

This happends with all games where people keep saying stuff like "The AI is super complex and great", if the AI isn't particularly great, somebody is going to call you out on it.

In 99% of all other games, its normal to complain about the AI not being adequate or something else, but with this particular game it seems that your not allowed to say anything that can be considered a negative.

Apparently if the AI is stupid, im playing the game wrong.

Im just giving my opinions of the game, as i play the game, i can say that if i want. Its not like i present my statements as facts, they are just my impressions of the game. Just like you can state your opinions. You can even discuss my statements, and we can present arguments on both sides.

Selective quouting out of context with one liners is not a particularly intellectual way to go about things..

 

[catisfit]

Mod Note: It appears you've found fault in every aspect as well! Anyways, if you disagree and would like to discuss it please do so. The repetitive one-liner comments just aren't healthy for continued discussion of the topic. -AlS

Fair enough, I was just using the repetition for emphasis of the point

This happends with all games where people keep saying stuff like "The AI is super complex and great", if the AI isn't particularly great, somebody is going to call you out on it.

In 99% of all other games, its normal to complain about the AI not being adequate or something else, but with this particular game it seems that your not allowed to say anything that can be considered a negative.

Apparently if the AI is stupid, im playing the game wrong.

Im just giving my opinions of the game, as i play the game, i can say that if i want. Its not like i present my statements as facts, they are just my impressions of the game. Just like you can state your opinions. You can even discuss my statements, and we can present arguments on both sides.

I don't wish to start a discussion about it, you're more than welcome to post your opinions of course, and I agree that some people are perhaps too praiseworthy of the game - as I said, no game is perfect.

It just stood out to me that a healthy proportion of the negative comments covered pretty much every single aspect of the game, and came from the same person, so I wondered what your reason for continuing to play it was if it was as bad as you make out

 

[Scott_Arm]

It just stood out to me that a healthy proportion of the negative comments covered pretty much every single aspect of the game, and came from the same person, so I wondered what your reason for continuing to play it was if it was as bad as you make out

He's obviously a masochist

I do and don't understand the praise for this game. I really think it depends on whether you grew up with the series. For me, coming from an outsiders perspective, I can appreciate the outstandingly high production values and the attention to detail, but the gameplay, though solid, does not feel nearly as deep as it was made out to be. The quality of the writing is atrocious; The first 40 to 50 minutes of cut scenes and radio comms are terrible, which doesn't make me very excited for the next fifteen hours, or whatever it is. I can see how someone who played the series from the beginning and has some investment and sentimentality towards the characters could really enjoy it, but looking at it from an outsiders view, it's pretty bad.


One other thing about the gameplay ... It's pretty hard to tell how well hidden you are. To me, it never really looks like I'm hidinig. The camo thing kind of disguises the fact that it pretty much looks like you're standing right in the open all the time. Even when you press up against a wall, it doesn't really look like you blend in that well, and the visual difference between just standing beside a wall and pressing against the wall is very small. To me, that made it very hard to tell if I was actually hiding or not when maneuvering through some of the battles. If the game relied more on disguises, and maybe it does later, or moving between shadows, I'd feel like I knew if I was actually being stealthy or not. I understand the difficulty in making the camo blend too much, because you actually have to be able to see where you are on screen. Maybe part of this is not having a lot of experience with the previous games, and having a more natural understanding of what is hidden and what is not, and how well the guards can detect you - kind of a learned behaviour from playing through the series. I don't want a meter of some sort to show me how detectable I am, because you should never truly know, but you should be able to guess from looking at the conditions you're hiding in. It was much easier in a game like Splinter Cell, because if you stood in a shadow, you could barely see yourself. They gave you those little lights on your goggles so you could see yourself, which did sort of spoil the illusion because they should have been obvious to anyone.

Any other new players find the stealth unconvincing or difficult to navigate like I am? I mean, I actually did a lot of sneaking around, and only really used the tranq gun, but a lot of the times I questioned why I wasn't spotted, and I was just sort of guessing my way through. The only time I knew I was well hidden was if I stepped around a corner. The barrel is unconvincing, but it gets a free pass because it's obviously meant to be humorous and it kind of works for me.

 

[obonicus]

That's true for a lot of games, or indeed other activities. The trick to extending your reach is to make the learning process simple enough that no-one gets scared off. Put MGS4 in a 'casuals' hands and they'll give up in a wink, whereas something with simple controls they'll actually try the game before forming an opinion. The balancing act is in game complexity versus ease of use. Clearly more functionality and options means more complex controls, but in those cases the ideal would be to stratified the controls into basic and advanced actions. Keep the basics ready to hand, and only include complex controls for less-used behaviours. That said, there's a good argument that MGS4's developers fairly couldn't give a rat's arse about casual gamers and are happy to produce something with a view to 'well learn to play it properly you lazy bum!'

I don't think it was ever intended to be a casual game. It's in a particularly unfriendly genre (stealth) though the improved shooting mechanics make it much easier than those (again, a comparison with Hitman is IMO appropriate). MGS4 might even be the one of the least casual games this gen: it's loaded with fanservice and series conventions that will appeal to people who enjoy the series, but not necessarily anyone else, while the rest of the gameplay is shooter-fare which isn't particularly casual to begin with.

No doubt lacking a 'fire from the hip' button was a design decision rather than an accidental omission. Previous games had it, even if it was hard to use, but part of it is the Splinter Cell factor: being able to react to a situation with deadly force means having your weapon readied, which restricts your motion and restricts the amount of stealth-actions you can take. MGS4 has a smoother transition between combat and non-combat than SC, but it's still there. I believe again, they do it this way for the same reason that SC gives you a handful of bullets, a fairly weak gun and poor accuracy: combat is an option, but it's not the optimal solution. MGS4's 'mistake', perhaps, was making combat so easy. When stealth fails, enemies break into your typical sneaker AI, which is really pretty stupid.

Which would account to many reviewer's complaints about AI: if you play MGS4 as a shooter you'll find the AI poor, and since you'll typically face fewer enemies at a time than in say, COD4, you'll feel the 'respawn balancing' a lot more. If you play it on pure stealth, the MGS4 AI is better than most, if not all other stealth titles out there (the only one I'm sure it's better is the Thief series, I haven't played those in a while). Not because they're smart per se (all stealth AI is pretty simple), but because they have a lot more tools to deal with you sneaking around, and that adds depth to the gameplay.

 

[obonicus]

snip

The camouflage indicator is essentially the 'light indicator' of MGS4. 85% is pretty safe up until an enemy comes very very close. With 99% (from the facecamo) I've had enemies practically step on me. I've been able to hide with 45% in the middle of a firefight, because the enemy was otherwise distracted.

With robots I think all camo is ineffectual, but if you don't get laserbeamed you're fine. Most of the time I faced those little robots though, I was going crazy with the M60.

 

[Scott_Arm]

The camouflage indicator is essentially the 'light indicator' of MGS4. 85% is pretty safe up until an enemy comes very very close. With 99% (from the facecamo) I've had enemies practically step on me. I've been able to hide with 45% in the middle of a firefight, because the enemy was otherwise distracted.

With robots I think all camo is ineffectual, but if you don't get laserbeamed you're fine. Most of the time I faced those little robots though, I was going crazy with the M60.

There's a camo indicator? I didn't even notice it. I'd just crawl around everywhere and seemed to do ok, quickly tranq gunning anyone that spotted me, which wasn't too often. I'd prefer if hiding was more contextual than based on an indicator.

 

[Cornsnake]

Playing through it for the second time I do find that some cutscenes start to drag on a bit. But there are a lot more layers to the story then newcomers can tell.

 

[obonicus]

There's a camo indicator? I didn't even notice it. I'd just crawl around everywhere and seemed to do ok, quickly tranq gunning anyone that spotted me, which wasn't too often. I'd prefer if hiding was more contextual than based on an indicator.

Upper right corner. If the solid eye is on, it's just above the radar, otherwise it's just above the wind indicator.

The earlier MGS games were more like that; with the radar up you actually saw the enemy's FOV, and if you stayed out of it you were okay. They got glasses for MGS3, which is a fortunate coincidence since you discover camouflage around that time too. But otherwise, it's another one of those genre conventions: SC had the light indicator (like Thief) in the first 3 games and the red-yellow-green indicator in Double Agent. Hitman had the suspicion meter.

 

[patsu]

Done with act 3. Another lame boss (found a spot of invulnerability in the building that let me heal as much as I wanted) and somehow a worse backstory than the laughing boss. I was cringing at the dialouge/story/voice in this whole sequence. Talk about terrible. What's great is that some scenes are very well done and yet you have these 2 that are utter shit and if you found this in any other game, it'd be a laughing stock.

Yeah, I know which spot you're refering to. I was hiding under the staircase desparately during that fight because I only had 1 ration left before the boss fight started. I wouldn't have made it without that spot. I think there are more than 1 location for quick health recovery though.

For most boss fights in MGS4, there is always an easy way out (for noobs like me).

If you have enough health, you can also go up the building and enjoy the rooftop view of the city. The building will be torn apart slowly (scripted) like in the lower floor. You will also find out what Raging Raven is doing when you take cover. ;-)

I like Act 3 because the resistance member tracking and the bike chase stages gave more variety to the game. I also love the art direction there.

Once they discover you, they should surely act like good AI found on FPS! Instead, you can easily pick a choke point, shit there and head shot away until they stop coming. How about using flash/stun/nade? taking cover and flushing me out? flanking me? If I'm in a choke point they won't use a nade but if I'm standing in the middle of an open area with lots of room to dodge, they throw one out on occasion.

In the old MGS, the soldiers were quick to report your location to their HQ. This strikes fear more than any FPSes. In MGS4, they delayed the reporting, and you have unlimited ammo (because of Drebin) -- probably to simplify the game for casuals. These are the 2 breaking points for me.

For close combat, the MGS4 soldiers do use grenades aggressively, especially the FROGs. I have been 'naded and stunned countless times. If they don't do it to you, you may be out of range, undiscovered (they don't know your exact location and are busy fighting the NPCs), or the game limited it (perhaps to make it easier for people to cross the choke point).

There should be a FEAR of getting spotted. Right now it's more of a "oops, my stealth tactic didn't work out. Oh well, time to bust out the G3 and lay em out."

Again, it's very clear that this game had been adapted so it caters towards the shooter fans as much as anything else. However, it's shooting and AI fall well short of top FPS. The best thing it's got going is the production value which outside of the B&B backstories, is quite amazing. That alone is worth a play through.

The combat system is designed such that you could crawl away at any point in time to get back to stealth (Wait for enemy to quiet down). It is not a FPS game for sure. FPS lovers can always go to MGO to enjoy heavy shooting (or being shot it) to their hearts' content. Even then, it is very similar to the "top shooter" CoD4 (scripted, unlimited spawn, no smart AI flanking). It looks to me that Konami wants this game to focus more on battlefield control/management instead of gunslinging.

To complement that goal, it is more difficult/dangerous than regular FPSes when you are flanked in MGS4. The control and control speed are less suitable for quick targeting, the grenades and CQC will knock Snake off his feet, he might lose stamina and faint. Like PMC soldiers, Snake's recovery is slow too. When his stamina gets too low, it can also be difficult to control his aim. If you kill too many enemies, Snake will start to vomit.

If the enemies are as fast and blood thirsty as FPS opponents in Halo and RFOM, Konami may have to redesign the game. Most people would not have time to get back into stealth mid-game. Many will also "die" frequently in the process. I think separating die hard FPS fans into a different game like MGO is a good move. MGO does not have the above design limitations. It also adds customizable skills to suit different people's play style.

 

[Nesh]

I have one question.

Can I play music on the iPod that are stored on my PS3? If yes how?

Anyone answer my question?

 

[patsu]

Anyone answer my question?

It only plays the tracks you picked up in MSG4.

 

[deepbrown]

Why did they bother to spend so much time making some of the cutscenes realtime? The most impressive cutscenes are not rendered in realtime, so why bother doing any? Its not like the cutscenes are made 10 times better because you have the ability to zoom or make pictures appear in front of you for every second cutscene..

And why didn't someone edit all the repeating parts. The dialoge so far (ive just killed cryingwolf), has been terrible.

The dialogue isn't terrible throughout. The delivery is sometimes terrible (Otacon's whimpering disturbs me, Drebin isn't great) but most of the dialogue itself is well written and goes in depth into what fans want to know. There's a massive amount of depth in the story, characters backstory etc.

Why make cutscenes realtime? Are you joking? Because that's the Metal Gear tradition, you can interact with the cutscenes to show they are realtime, and they all look gorgeous. There aren't any non-realtime cutscenes that look "more impressive". Tell me, which aren't realtime and why do they look more impressive?

The game does have the best story in games for many years when taking into consideration the past stories, and they way MGS4 ties it altogether. Some revelations are staggering (Act 3's comes to mind).

It only plays the tracks you picked up in MSG4.

So far.

I cant see really anything amazing with this playthrough.

Hes just taking his time tranquilizing everybody... The game would play exactly the same if you decided to kill everybody with silenced weapons and CQC. (I play like that, but i dont go out to kill everybody, i kill if im tempted to or if i get spotted).

The whole no kills thing ended for me in the first frogg encounter, as it feels stupid for me to shoot at people with darts when they run at me with P90's actually trying to kill me. (I dont think that should count as interfering in the war, as they planned to attack you and that squad, thus they where bound to end up killing or getting killed there anyway)

I also dont see how tranqulizing everyone is not interfering with the war, as im sure tranqulizing a whole battlion in a warfare situation would have a big impact on the outcome of this war anyway

You can't see anything amazing in that play through? Ok Ostepop, now you're being a kill joy for the sake of it. The ease with which he dispatches enemies without being noticed in that area, while performing CQC on them throughout shows real skill - and above all, variety in the gameplay. Variety you don't find in an action game. My point is - playing that way gives you more variety, more skill, and more fun than playing it running and gunning. Moreover, he's not taking his time - he's playing it very quickly in a stealth manner.

I don't care whether you can do all this - that's great - my point is, playing the game stealthfully shows off how much variety there is in the gameplay.

He's obviously a masochist

I do and don't understand the praise for this game. I really think it depends on whether you grew up with the series. For me, coming from an outsiders perspective, I can appreciate the outstandingly high production values and the attention to detail, but the gameplay, though solid, does not feel nearly as deep as it was made out to be. .

There is depth in the gameplay as shown in the video I offered...you just need to read all of the instructions and briefings in the pause menu to discover it all.

 

[Nesh]

I have one more question. I finished the game once and now I have screaming mantis' dolls and the solar gun. I am trying to get the big boss emblem and I was wondering if these weapons count as special items used.

If I use special items I lose the big boss emblem. So am I allowed to use them?

 

[Cornsnake]

That youtube video isn't what I would call stealth or fun. You might just as well start killing everyone then.

 

[deepbrown]

That youtube video isn't what I would call stealth or fun. You might just as well start killing everyone then.

Did you see the CQC moves he used...punching the gun out of the enemies arms. Holding a PMC guy up - the crotch grab? The porno mag? Using an enemy as a shield to tranq the others? How doesn't that show variety. How doesn't it show stealth? He's not spotted once. For me...variety = fun. Moreover, my point was it was more fun than running through with a P90 shooting everyone.

Another example. Remember he's playing on Big Boss hard, no kills, no alerts. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfBtJX2dw_Y

 

[Cheezdoodles]

Why make cutscenes realtime? Are you joking? Because that's the Metal Gear tradition, you can interact with the cutscenes to show they are realtime, and they all look gorgeous. There aren't any non-realtime cutscenes that look "more impressive". Tell me, which aren't realtime and why do they look more impressive?

Um the non-realtime cutscenes are the most impressive ones, (why do you think they aren't done in realtime).

You can't see anything amazing in that play through? Ok Ostepop, now you're being a kill joy for the sake of it. The ease with which he dispatches enemies without being noticed in that area, while performing CQC on them throughout shows real skill - and above all, variety in the gameplay. Variety you don't find in an action game. My point is - playing that way gives you more variety, more skill, and more fun than playing it running and gunning. Moreover, he's not taking his time - he's playing it very quickly in a stealth manner.

Im not being a kill joy. All hes doing is running around with a tranqulizer and putting everyone to sleep without detection. Which to me is pretty much the same as just killing everybody. Performing CQC isnt particularly hard in this game, just a matter of balls and pressing R1 at the right time.

It doesn't look any more fun to me than when i play, i do all the same moves, but i dont shoot people with darts and i try not killing people if thats an option. Tranqulizing everyone is not particularly hard, the targets in this game are very stationary so picking headshot is not particularly hard.

 

[el_rika]

Um the non-realtime cutscenes are the most impressive ones, (why do you think they aren't done in realtime).
.

ok, so which exactly are those cutscenes you are refering to ?

I'm just asking because every single cutscene in the game uses the exact same assets.

 

[xatnys]

Are the egg frying scenes real time? I've only ever seen (downsized) video clips so I couldn't tell due to the video size.

 

[Cornsnake]

My idea of stealth is not letting anyone know you were there in the first place. Leaving everything as it was as when you got there. Only achieving your goals.

What he did is easy and he got spotted several times.