*merged/spinoff* for the Neverending Killzone Discussion on Graphics

[KKRT]

Dont You think that those are two different textures? Because brown stripes are sharper in final version, so it could just be blurred in photoshop for artistic reasons.

 

[Gitaroo]

Those images actually do show softening in the mlaa version, in a way errily close to what I was mentioning with the sample image I had linked. Look at Kratos's chest, left side (his left), above his nipple area, basically above the big splotch of red and more to where the fine red lines are. Those are sharp in the demo, and blurred in the final version. Also, look at the head that he's holding near the neck area. A lot of the pockmark detail is there in the demo version but gone in the final version. That's the types of details that I'm talking about which can get softened up by mlaa, any high contrast details. Intestingly a depth only solution would not work on those particular areas in terms of trying to determine if it's an edge or not because the Z values would all be too close together to be able to know.

not really, most of those you mention has tone map, shadow, or even dof and other effects that can blur the screen. This chest is only part that is clear of post processing effects, looks just as sharp, even better with the subtle high frequency detail they have added.

 

[joker454]

not really, most of those you mention has tone map, shadow, or even dof and other effects that can blur the screen. This chest is only part that is clear of post processing effects, looks just as sharp, even better with the subtle high frequency detail they have added.

Tone mapping doesn't blur anything, dof wouldn't matter since Kratos and the head would be kept in focus range for that particular pic, shadows don't blur anything either. There could be other effects going on though, or maybe the camera was moving more on one pic compared to the other.

Dont You think that those are two different textures? Because brown stripes are sharper in final version, so it could just be blurred in photoshop for artistic reasons.

It could be multiple textures. Like his skin with the brown stripe might be the base texture that's always used, and the bloody parts are a detail texture that initially aren't there but maybe appears over time as he battles, or they enable it for cutscenes, etc, for dramatic effect. It's possible that the detail blood texture was dropped down a bit in resolution as well in the final game and it's blurriness has nothing to do with mlaa at all. That's less noticeable on his head where it occipies less pixels, but more on his chest area where it's stretched out more. I think the demo and final builds as well may have been many months apart come to think of it, which makes doing a comparison probably impossible on those two pics.

What we need is a dev kind enough to take a screen grab with mlaa disabled, and another with it enabled. Any takers?

 

[homerdog]

T.B., who is your employer if you don't mind me asking?

While we're on the subject of image quality, I was just playing TF2 with 16xQCSAA and it struck me how insanely awesome the IQ is, even at 1440x900. Meanwhile in other games (Crysis) MSAA is not nearly as effective. Goes to show that AA should really be handled on a case by case basis.

 

[Gitaroo]

Tone mapping doesn't blur anything, dof wouldn't matter since Kratos and the head would be kept in focus range for that particular pic, shadows don't blur anything either. There could be other effects going on though, or maybe the camera was moving more on one pic compared to the other.

the glow around the light does hide the detail, and the shadow doesn't, but the direction of the light source can effect the surface detail, like specular map etc. The final game does have some changes and additional effects after all even the texture.

here is a comparison between no AA and MLAA

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=22661479&postcount=29

mind you that the cloud shadow location is a little different but overall, I dont see any blur from MLAA that effect the overall IQ. If you say to zoom in like 200-300% to even see it, does that even matter?

 

[patsu]

T.B., who is your employer if you don't mind me asking?

He should be with Sony ATG. Was involved in the SPU MLAA effort:
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1419294&postcount=635

 

[Statix]

Going by that logic, you could make the argument that 2xMSAA or 4xMSAA makes a game "look less sharp" than no AA at all, due to the fact that edges are smoothened/softened by the fact that digital pixel aliasing/stairstepping is interpolated (intermediate/gray pixels on edges are inserted/simulated).

For the record, I've played through GOW3 multiple times, and I saw little-to-no crawling or motion artifacts, and the game has some of the sharpest image quality I've seen in any PS3 title.

You can see the GOW3 Aphrodite sex scene/minigame in HD at Gametrailers.com, and you can see just how well the Cell-based MLAA works in that game. It looks almost like prerendered or supersampled footage because of how there's not a hint of aliasing to be seen on any polygon edge. This is a really bright and colorful scene too, with a lot of high-contrast edges, so even 4xMSAA would still exhibit some noticeable aliasing in this instance. MLAA handles this scene almost flawlessly. I know Gametrailers vids aren't the best quality, but it's of a good enough quality in this instance.

 

[kagemaru]

I think that people like you have a problem with you negative to positive comment ratio, when it comes to PS3 exclusive games. These people know there are way more positive things to say about the game than negative. They still just accent the negative and glance over or ignore the positive. That's not the correct behavior you should exhibit, unless this is universally done across all games. That isn't the case with these people, at all.

I'm not paying attention to ratios. My comment was specifically directed to those having issues with the legit criticism towards KZ3.

I'm sure it goes both ways, most things do, but I've just found it on this board it's less accepted when flaws are found in PS3 exclusives by some members. Sony's cool-aid about how the ps3 is some powerhouse console still runs strong for some people IMO.

I have no issues seeing flaws in both 360 and ps3 games, neither console is held on a pedestal in my world.

I think another reason these people are having a tough time with KZ3 is because there were so many unused clock cycles in KZ2. Now, all those clock cycles are being used in KZ3. Sometimes, it's not always about resources being shifted around. Sometimes, there is just more resources to be used. It doesn't seem like that's been the case for 360 for quite some time (MS dev slides from 360 launch games show 85% clock cycle usage), so their fans need to lash out at recent PS3 exclusive games that drive the point home.

Also, I'm positive the criticism geared towards KZ3 has NOTHING to do with clock cycles at all. That's the silliest thing I've read in a long time.

Also, you need to post the MS dev slides showing stats about 360 launch games. I'm sure you won't or can't but even if you magically do find said slides, I can already tell you how you're interpreting them wrong. It's no different from the rumors that launch games were only using one core on the 360, which was also wrong.

It's not all about how much of the hardware you use, but how you use the hardware. I can develop a game that's horribly coded, but still uses "100%" of the 360's (or PS3's) CPU. Doesn't mean my code is good code for reference or my game is "maxing out" either system.

You see, reading comprehension is key, you might want to work on that.

 

[patsu]

I'm sure it goes both ways, most things do, but I've just found it on this board it's less accepted when flaws are found in PS3 exclusives by some members. Sony's cool-aid about how the ps3 is some powerhouse console still runs strong for some people IMO.

...

You see, reading comprehension is key, you might want to work on that.

I have seen people criticized PS3 titles with no repercussions on B3D.

I suspect it's two ways. Very often it's how the poster presented his observation/argument. Sometimes when things blow up, it's as if the poster wanted to invoke more reaction in the first place; and he will get the expected responses on any Internet fora, not just this one. Sometimes, you'll see people attacking the PS3 or 360 posters unnecessarily. Sometimes, you'll see people using outdated or wrong info. Other times, you can tell they haven't played the game. Often, people over-generalize. In many cases, it can be down to personal preferences, etc. etc. etc.

 

[kagemaru]

I have seen people criticized PS3 titles with no repercussions on B3D.

I suspect it's two ways. Very often it's how the poster presented his observation/argument. Sometimes when things blow up, it's as if the poster wanted to invoke more reaction in the first place; and he will get the expected responses on any Internet fora, not just this one. Sometimes, you'll see people attacking the PS3 or 360 posters unnecessarily. Sometimes, you'll see people using outdated or wrong info. Other times, you can tell they haven't played the game. Often, people over-generalize. In many cases, it can be down to personal preferences, etc. etc. etc.

Well I can only speak for my short time here and what few exclusive game specific threads I paid attention to.

What you're saying is true, but I kind of expect more here where I like to think the average poster here knows more or at least has more interest in the tech side of games than your average forum poster.

I saw nothing wrong with the criticism given to KZ3, but some people got defensive over it. No one said it was an ugly game, no one bashed it. Everything from MLAA to the lighting was covered, but only when people bring up the negative points of MLAA or the lighting do people start having issues.

I have no issue with preferences, it's human nature and we all have them. However, there is a major difference between preference and flat out ignorance. The very post I replied to in your quote demonstrates this very clearly IMO. When someone expresses their opinion with sound logic for said opinion, I have issues when people jump on these people in order to defend their console of choice.

 

[betan]

If a guys says Uncharted 2 wasn't good looking or TAA can be better than MLAA, you have to think he comes with a special objective in mind, other than an objective technical discussion.

 

[kagemaru]

If a guys says Uncharted 2 wasn't good looking or TAA can be better than MLAA, you have to think he comes with a special objective in mind, other than an objective technical discussion.

I don't remember reading either of these comments, though I haven't paid attention to the thread since my earlier post a few days ago.

If someone actually said Uncharted 2 doesn't look good, depending on the context, then yeah I'd agree he has an agenda. As for MLAA vs TAA and all that crap, again I'd have to see how they applied their opinion before making claims. Someone's opinion on either AA technique can just come down to their preference and it also matter on what game is being discussed. I've expressed that I like the QAA and it's effect in KZ2 better than MLAA in KZ3. I honestly think this and I HATE QAA lol Just one example to how different factors can influence what someone thinks or sees.

 

[patsu]

I saw nothing wrong with the criticism given to KZ3, ...

That's your assessment as a reader but it doesn't necessarily mean the posters are right/wrong though. Need to look at the specific point. In fact, that's why some people responded because they may think the posts are misleading to casual readers.

EDIT:

I don't remember reading either of these comments, though I haven't paid attention to the thread since my earlier post a few days ago.

… then you may not want to criticize other posters because it's possible that you missed their points.

If someone actually said Uncharted 2 doesn't look good, depending on the context, then yeah I'd agree he has an agenda. As for MLAA vs TAA and all that crap, again I'd have to see how they applied their opinion before making claims. Someone's opinion on either AA technique can just come down to their preference and it also matter on what game is being discussed. I've expressed that I like the QAA and it's effect in KZ2 better than MLAA in KZ3. I honestly think this and I HATE QAA lol Just one example to how different factors can influence what someone thinks or sees.

For MLAA vs TAA debate, I think you'll need to read up on them before renegading the discussion to just pure opinions.

 

[T.B.]

He should be with Sony ATG. Was involved in the SPU MLAA effort

SCE WWS ATG, or so they keep telling me.
But yes, that would be me. I'm the designated nurse of our MLAA algorithm.

 

[patsu]

Male nurse ! Eeeewwww !

Btw, I have an uneducated guess on how you did MLAA without messing up the textures.

 

[kagemaru]

That's your assessment as a reader but it doesn't necessarily mean the posters are right/wrong though. Need to look at the specific point. In fact, that's why some people responded because they may think the posts are misleading to casual readers.

EDIT:


… then you may not want to criticize other posters because it's possible that you missed their points.



For MLAA vs TAA debate, I think you'll need to read up on them before renegading the discussion to just pure opinions.

You see though, my original post that Lucid Dream quoted and replied to, had nothing to do with the posts moved to this new thread here. I'm not really commenting on any current points made, just those I've seen at the time of my original post. Also I think I know enough about MLAA and TAA to form an informed opinion

I'm not really in the discussion of this thread, I've grown tired of all the debates in KZ3 and Crysis 2. I was just posting in response to Lucid's ridiculous claims/points, nothing more.

 

[patsu]

Yap, there was a run-away train wreck debate on KZ3 flaws that got spun off to this thread. ^_^
It's mostly reactions and emotions provoked from a few posts earlier. No point carrying it further.

 

[Lucid_Dreamer]

I'm not paying attention to ratios. My comment was specifically directed to those having issues with the legit criticism towards KZ3.

I'm sure it goes both ways, most things do, but I've just found it on this board it's less accepted when flaws are found in PS3 exclusives by some members. Sony's cool-aid about how the ps3 is some powerhouse console still runs strong for some people IMO.

I have no issues seeing flaws in both 360 and ps3 games, neither console is held on a pedestal in my world.

Actions speak louder than words. And, that's what we have been seeing. It's not about "cool-aid" when the visual and technical evidence is all over the place. It's "cool-aid" when people try for ignore/explain away all the visual and technical evidence. Ignore 1080p, 7.1 LPCM, DTS, true S3D, Sony's MLAA, more techniques happening at the same time, more high rez textures, etc. Geez! I'm not so gullible. If you want to notice "flaws" in PS3, notice that all these things are missing from the games you are, usually, trying to praise. Can you do that for me?

Accurate flaws are welcome. Lodge your take on the complaint in the thread and move on. Trying to push and drill the same point over and over is annoying. Not mention that flaw, if it's actually a flaw to begin with, is probably worse (or missing altogether) in a game you are trying to praise! It's over the top and utterly ridiculous.

Also, I'm positive the criticism geared towards KZ3 has NOTHING to do with clock cycles at all. That's the silliest thing I've read in a long time.

You should read some of your own posts, sometimes. I see you like to take things out of context and fabricate your own point from misinformation (like you did with my post about the "virtual particle collisions" in another thread). My post about clock cycles was to back up my point about sometimes just having more cycles to use appose to always having to compromise on features. However, clock cycles can effect the direct criticism (insinuating that it's false and trying to downplay the technical information) of the "3x polygons of KZ2" in KZ3 made by Ranger.

Also, you need to post the MS dev slides showing stats about 360 launch games. I'm sure you won't or can't but even if you magically do find said slides, I can already tell you how you're interpreting them wrong. It's no different from the rumors that launch games were only using one core on the 360, which was also wrong.

It's not all about how much of the hardware you use, but how you use the hardware. I can develop a game that's horribly coded, but still uses "100%" of the 360's (or PS3's) CPU. Doesn't mean my code is good code for reference or my game is "maxing out" either system.

You see, reading comprehension is key, you might want to work on that.

I saved that presentation years ago, because I figured it would disappear from the search engine one day. Always be prepared. I just think you will find a way to try and sidestep it, though. You are already preparing for it, with your statement about horribly coded and still use 100% of the 360's CPU. This would mean that you believe the developers that have been accredited with creating some of the best visuals, on the 360, were writing horrible code. That would be a bit of an oxymoron. Not to mention Kameo and PGR3 were, supposedly, best case studies of multi-threading for the 360!

Here are the case studies for you to look over. It's not the complete presentation, but most of the important parts are there. I found it in a Georgia Tech lecture.

http://users.ece.gatech.edu/lanterma/mpg08/mpglecture20f08_4up.pdf

EDIT: I found the full presentation.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...VRRLSfelQ&sig2=uH2dtCBA5yQPlrGXNgEUnw&cad=rja

I have seen people criticized PS3 titles with no repercussions on B3D.

Absolutely true! A lot of times, it's not even accurate! Insinuations that Sony's MLAA blurs textures when it doesn't was just of the latest misinformation. Thank goodness T.B. corrected that, but that misinformation will still propagate. Another one is that TAA is about the same as Sony's MLAA and far worse than MSAA. I digress. It's just interesting, to say the least.

 

[ct03]

Insinuations that Sony's MLAA blurs textures when it doesn't was just of the latest misinformation. Thank goodness T.B. corrected that, but that misinformation will still propagate.

I don't believe he ever said that textures don't get blurred at all. And frankly, he could tell us a lot of things under the guise of not being allowed to talk about the implementation.

 

[kagemaru]

^ yeah it's this level of ignorance that I'm talking about. Has no place in these forums.

Edit:

Oops sorry, thought I was posting directly under Lucid, he's the one I'm referring to.

Also, reading his post again and I don't know where he got most of his.........delusional comments from. His claims about me are unfounded and flat out retarded.