Matrix Revolutions blows - SPOILER WARNING
- Thread starter K.I.L.E.R
- Start date
Now seen it 2 times. Gets better for me and Im def gonna see it a 3rd. Very tight script. Almost nothing is said for no reason. I could mjch better feel the depth of manipulation going on now. I do think Smith's taking over of every inhabitant of the matrix, human or ai will def make things interesting in the next flick.
I still hope to be surprised tho. Talking with a bud we were discussing other purposes for the matrix than energy. Massively parallel processor using human minds came to the front. From the machines needing such a huge processor to figure out such esoteric things like awareness\emotions to maybe simply trying to figure out how to remove the black shield covering the earth. We quickly gave up on the idea of whether the real world is amtrix illusion or not. In either case its not an interesting denouement. Continuing to investigate the overall theme of choice and a possible other purpose for the matrix will be more interesting in the next flick we think...
We also thought about the machine ability to exploit ressources and energy to the max on the surface. We think it would be easily possible to cover the whole planet a km or more deep with machines with just geothermal alone... I hope we get a birds eye view of how things are on the surface in the film... Some very short bits on the revolutions trailer seemd to show some of that... can hardly wait ...
The soundtrack in the digital theater I saw it in the 2nd time was a LOT better than the 1st viewing (probly only analog or just bad setup in the other theater I went to)... my original missgivings with the music is virtually all gone... great soundtrack... Itll rock on dvd.
I still hope to be surprised tho. Talking with a bud we were discussing other purposes for the matrix than energy. Massively parallel processor using human minds came to the front. From the machines needing such a huge processor to figure out such esoteric things like awareness\emotions to maybe simply trying to figure out how to remove the black shield covering the earth. We quickly gave up on the idea of whether the real world is amtrix illusion or not. In either case its not an interesting denouement. Continuing to investigate the overall theme of choice and a possible other purpose for the matrix will be more interesting in the next flick we think...
We also thought about the machine ability to exploit ressources and energy to the max on the surface. We think it would be easily possible to cover the whole planet a km or more deep with machines with just geothermal alone... I hope we get a birds eye view of how things are on the surface in the film... Some very short bits on the revolutions trailer seemd to show some of that... can hardly wait ...
The soundtrack in the digital theater I saw it in the 2nd time was a LOT better than the 1st viewing (probly only analog or just bad setup in the other theater I went to)... my original missgivings with the music is virtually all gone... great soundtrack... Itll rock on dvd.
And be careful with your answer. I have seen plenty of people complain about "CG" that wasn't in fact CG. CG means images that were rendered from geometry. It does not mean bluescreen or composited images. I saw this with the "Trinity jumps from building'" scene in Reloaded (it was NOT CG, I saw the bluescreen filming they used for it) and ditto for Jurassic Park where people complained about some CG dinosaurs that were in fact, robots. And let's leave out the one obvious example: "bullet" time shows from the Agent Smith fight.
What did you think of Lord of the Rings (both films?) They relied HEAVILY on CG, CG in some areas that looked really bogus (Legolas on Cave Troll). Or Attack of the Clones for that matter. LOTR is even more of a "get from point A to point B" movie plot than Reloaded, so if Matrix is criticized for simply linear plot, ditto for all "chase" films.
I find it amazing that people criticize Reloaded for too much fighting, since other people are criticizing it (as they did the original matrix) for HALF the movie being devoid of action. (the "slow" real world scenes)
What did you think of Lord of the Rings (both films?) They relied HEAVILY on CG, CG in some areas that looked really bogus (Legolas on Cave Troll). Or Attack of the Clones for that matter. LOTR is even more of a "get from point A to point B" movie plot than Reloaded, so if Matrix is criticized for simply linear plot, ditto for all "chase" films.
I find it amazing that people criticize Reloaded for too much fighting, since other people are criticizing it (as they did the original matrix) for HALF the movie being devoid of action. (the "slow" real world scenes)
For what its worth, I thought it was really good, almost as good as the original (which is hard to do, since the wow feeling about the universe is already present). The fighting scenes have to go down as some of the best in history, particularily in the mansion, and against Jet Lee.
I like the little twists they put in the end with the architect, though I intuitively figured something like that was going to come into play (as an avid scifi reader, this stuff tends to be standard fare). Either way, great stuff. I love it when many different genres can be mixed in to a movie, and still have it come out as being acceptable. Anyone catch the King Lear overtones?
Only objections.
1) yes some of the fight scenes are a little too long (like 30 seconds too long). One's heart is pumping so fast, and it keeps going and going. The smith fight in particular.
2) Rave scene a little too long (like 20 seconds too long).
3) Commander Locks character is a little hoaky, and unidimensional.
4) Getting out of the ship. Whaaa? no spacesuits? Theres air under the surface of the earth?
I like the little twists they put in the end with the architect, though I intuitively figured something like that was going to come into play (as an avid scifi reader, this stuff tends to be standard fare). Either way, great stuff. I love it when many different genres can be mixed in to a movie, and still have it come out as being acceptable. Anyone catch the King Lear overtones?
Only objections.
1) yes some of the fight scenes are a little too long (like 30 seconds too long). One's heart is pumping so fast, and it keeps going and going. The smith fight in particular.
2) Rave scene a little too long (like 20 seconds too long).
3) Commander Locks character is a little hoaky, and unidimensional.
4) Getting out of the ship. Whaaa? no spacesuits? Theres air under the surface of the earth?
Fred said:
FYI, that wasn't Jet Li, it was Sing Ngai, as Seraph.
http://us.imdb.com/Name?Ngai, Sing
I have no problem with that. It's nice to see fight scenes that leave me satiated instead of wanting more, for a change. The Burly Brawl, the chateau scene, and the freeway chase did just that.
True.
That was already established at the end of the first movie, when the sentinels cut into the Nebudchanezzar. And why shouldn't there be air under the earth's surface?
DemoCoder said:
Legolas on cave troll and jumping down in TTT were both very noticeable scenes.
It wasn't that there was too much fighting, it's that the fighting wasn't eliciting any emotional involvement from me. For example, at the end of the first movie Neo stood his ground and I remember sitting there getting excited and feeling like a little kid at the theatre again (for the first time in quite a while). Nothing in Reloaded did that for me. And the fights were just arms and legs flying everywhere. The choreography felt like a step back compared to the first. The moves weren't as dramatic because the fights weren't as dramatic.
Moreover, Neo appears to have taken a step backwards in his strength. For a man who could disdainfully turn sideways and block everything Smith threw his way, he's suddenly forced to focus his attentions and fight hard against everything in this movie. I know they said the new agents were upgrades, but even the Merovingian's guards kept him quite busy while the fate of his entire world was running away down a long hall with two phantoms after him. Yes, he probably trusted Morpheus and Trinity to protect the Keymaker, but why risk it with soo much at stake? Oh, because the illogical makes for a better fight scene.
As for the bad CGI, every flying shot looked bad. The first one, with Neo spinning up to be vertical above the clouds was very noticeable as he turned his head. As he pulled Morpeus and the Keymaker above the exploding trucks was horrible, as was his flight out of the building at the end. And the entire Smith vs. Neo scene was ruined for me by the CGI. They looked like blow-up dolls fighting each other.
Perhaps my expectations were too high, but when the special effects team boast during pre-release interviews how a person will never be able to spot the real from the computer generated, I expect the truth to at least be somewhat close to such a claim. It wasn't.
John Reynolds said:
I think this is an underlying theme that you've just completely missed. Where at the first film had this certainty to it, the birth of a newfound rebellion under the aegis of an unwavering vision that is Morphius.
We're now confronted with doubt, uncertaintly. It's the Empire Strikes Back if you will, as we now see that Morphius is, infact, considered this almost theological mystic by many in the elite Zion hierarchy. Neo has lost faith even in the very prophesy that gave rise to him. Hope is lost, Morphius is wrong, Neo is wavering...
Neo can't just kick all forms of ass that easily (which he ultimatly did)... I think your missing alot.
Well, I for one didn't notice the diffrence. I was looking for it during the big brawl, but am hestitent because I think alot of what your saying is CGI isn't and that you'll ultimatly look like an idiot.
Vince said:
So you're saying we're confusing Keanu's wooden acting with CGI? Ba-da-doom!
Edit: bad quote! bad!
Vince said:
The Prophecy is the vision, not Morpheus.
Sophistry. Neo was not wavering or in doubt for 99% of that film. The fights were simply a result of the two brothers having written themselves into a corner with Neo's ascension to the status of the One at the first film's end. It's the Superman problem for the writer: you've made your character all-powerful, so how do you now write confrontations that challenge him without nullifying his powers. Moreover, Neo, at least while in the Matrix, doesn't have an Achilles Heel, no weakness to some form of virtual Kryptonite.
He took out a few 'upgraded' agents, failed to beat the Oracle's guardian, fled from the multiple Smiths, and did win against the Merovingian's guards. Whoop-dee-doo. His greatest Messianic manifestation of power was restoring Trinity to life. As a warrior, Neo has been pussified by the Wachowskis so they can have their protracted, illogical fight scenes. And I knew this would happen before I saw the film.
Yea, you're probably right. Those trucks exploding were probably a blue screen with the real Keanu on wires. That was the real Neo spinning like a top through the air with the pole in his hand. And the Agent smashing the hood of the car was just a really fat stuntman who was born with a low polygon count in his left shoulder and arm.
Matrix: Reloaded doesn't top the opening weekend charts.
http://www.cnn.com/2003/SHOWBIZ/Movies/05/18/leisure.boxoffice.reut/index.html
Strange how they can conclude this before the weekend is over.
http://www.cnn.com/2003/SHOWBIZ/Movies/05/18/leisure.boxoffice.reut/index.html
Strange how they can conclude this before the weekend is over.
RussSchultz said:
They're probably not counting Sunday, sticking instead to a 3-day max since it opened Thursday rather than the typical Friday release.
John Reynolds said:
I disagree. Choreography was way better this time around, especially with Neo fighting the goons in the mansion or the 3 agents in the beginning. Keanu looks much more natural doing the moves too (still not as natural as Seraph), but his kicks are way smoother. There are times in the "I know Kung Fu" scene of the original where Keanu's awkwardness looked kinda goofy.
The reason why the fights seemed less dramatic or emotional is in contradiction to your next point...
Now, if Neo was all powerful and could just swat people like flies, just how much emotional impact is this Deus Ex Machina gonna have? The reason for less emotional impact is really unavoidable - because of the plot, Neo isn't in much danger of being hurt (unless you significantly upgrade his enemies)
In the first movie, when Neo stood his ground, you were like "wow, that is brave" And every punch he took from Smith, you felt it, because you felt Neo was really getting hurt. In Reloaded, when Neo stands his ground you are like "wow, he is such a badass". There isn't much fear he is going to lose, and more or less, you want to see how much ass he is going to kick, not whether he might lose his ass.
The approach they took in Reloaded is not to upgrade the capabilities of single combants, but to increase the number of them he would simultaneously have to fight. Each enemy is weak, but the idea is to overwhelm him.
This is probably has less emotional impact than if they had simply dispensed with the multi-fighting and simply super-upgraded Smith so that he kicks serious ass as an individual.
And an all powerful Neo who can shrug off any fight makes for no movie at all.
I have the movie on VCD now and have watched this scene several times. 80% of the fight does not use CG rendered people. There are only 5 shots which use it. (Neo swirls around with poll in air, Neo leaps from head-to-head, Neo bats Smith with pole, Neo kicks around with pole on ground)
All of the other shots are standard matte techniques (same way any movie with "twins" of an actor is done) and some of the Smiths are look-alike body doubles, if you freeze frame, it's not even Hugo Weaving.
The initial agent fight in the beginning and the goon fight in the Chateau have ZERO Cg.
Really, the number of "bad" shots is a small percentage of the entire movie. (the Agent jumping on the car does look bad. If they had done the chase at nighttime, it would have looked much better. They could have left this shot out of the whole freeway scene)
Yes, that is the real problem. The Gaeta bragging, the over the top Wired story, the Joel Silver "there is no BAR".
SpiderMan had the same problems the Matrix had, but it didn't ruin it for me, ditto with LOTR. Just overlook the few places it annoyed me.
DemoCoder said:
I agree with what you wrote. I guess by choreography I meant the pattern of the fights themselves, the moves themselves and not the skill with which the actors performed them. For example, when Smith caught Neo's strike in the first film yet Neo then extended his fingers, jabbing them into Smith's throat. Very cool move, and memorable. The new movie lacked moves like that, moves that immediately stood out to me.
I agree, which is why I feel the Wachowskis wrote themselves into a corner at the end of the first film.
Neo still wasn't on the same level as we were shown at the end of the first film. He simply never moved with the speed and demonstrated the strength he showed previously. This isn't really a big deal to me, just one of those expected yet illogical consequences of making your protagonist into a ubermensch.
Unfortunately for me, those few, brief frames often ruined the scene. You walk into the theatre with a willing suspension of disbelief and, for me, bad CGI dispels it.
I thought I spotted stunt doubles at times. Same for Keanu, too.
Gollum remains my favorite example of CGI done 'right', and I say this without comparison to Reloaded because the standards for fooling the human eye with a creature from fantasy fiction are completely different from those required for a real person.
Yeah, Gollum looks great, of course, since we do not know what Gollums are supposed to look like, it's harder for us to register improper lighting or movements.
I have seen rendered human face still shots that look pretty real. The problem is always in movement. As soon as there is movement, we detect two things:
1) problems with the way light reflectance and shading changes
2) problems with the mechanics of human movement
#2 is the worst. Just look at scene with Peter Parker climbing the bulding in Spider Man and jumping. He "running" and movement looks really bogus. I suspect we will see the same thing in Hulk, but will forgive it more because we don't know how the mechanics of a super large strong human are supposed to look.
#2 is even worse if we consider facial animation. It's dirt easy for us to detect bogus facial movements.
They need to crunch alot more computer power on simulating not just the surface of human beings, and not even just the mechanics of movement, but the way in which we decide to move. After all, we can simultate walking or marching, but both would look "too artificial" or "stiff" if looped because no one walks so perfectly or so intentionally. Ragdoll physics look good in games, but humans aren't ragdolls.
Anywhere, here's how I would have "fixed" the corner the writers wrote themselves into in Matrix Reloaded
1) Introduce another "The One", an evil human, who works for the machines, perhaps because of the power they allow him (like Merovingian, he is super wealthy and controls a vast empire over human beings). This guy, unlike the software programs, has the same abilities as Neo, and can fight at the same speed, so Bullet Time doesn't help Neo.
2) Agent Smith was "freed" when Neo infected him at the end of the first. He can now control the Matrix just like Neo because he is detached from it (e.g. He is a "One" anomaly, but artificial). BTW, this looks like what happens in Revolutions where Smith fights Neo 1 on 1.
3) Matrix patches its bugs. The holes in the network code that Neo was using to do client-side cheating
have been fixed. His walll hacks, aimbots, and speedhacks no longer work. Valve has banned his WONID...oops, where was I? Anyway, Neo loses his powers and becomes ordinary again, but is still a good fighter, he just can be hurt and has to run, just like the first movie.
I have seen rendered human face still shots that look pretty real. The problem is always in movement. As soon as there is movement, we detect two things:
1) problems with the way light reflectance and shading changes
2) problems with the mechanics of human movement
#2 is the worst. Just look at scene with Peter Parker climbing the bulding in Spider Man and jumping. He "running" and movement looks really bogus. I suspect we will see the same thing in Hulk, but will forgive it more because we don't know how the mechanics of a super large strong human are supposed to look.
#2 is even worse if we consider facial animation. It's dirt easy for us to detect bogus facial movements.
They need to crunch alot more computer power on simulating not just the surface of human beings, and not even just the mechanics of movement, but the way in which we decide to move. After all, we can simultate walking or marching, but both would look "too artificial" or "stiff" if looped because no one walks so perfectly or so intentionally. Ragdoll physics look good in games, but humans aren't ragdolls.
Anywhere, here's how I would have "fixed" the corner the writers wrote themselves into in Matrix Reloaded
1) Introduce another "The One", an evil human, who works for the machines, perhaps because of the power they allow him (like Merovingian, he is super wealthy and controls a vast empire over human beings). This guy, unlike the software programs, has the same abilities as Neo, and can fight at the same speed, so Bullet Time doesn't help Neo.
2) Agent Smith was "freed" when Neo infected him at the end of the first. He can now control the Matrix just like Neo because he is detached from it (e.g. He is a "One" anomaly, but artificial). BTW, this looks like what happens in Revolutions where Smith fights Neo 1 on 1.
3) Matrix patches its bugs. The holes in the network code that Neo was using to do client-side cheating
have been fixed. His walll hacks, aimbots, and speedhacks no longer work. Valve has banned his WONID...oops, where was I? Anyway, Neo loses his powers and becomes ordinary again, but is still a good fighter, he just can be hurt and has to run, just like the first movie.crypto1300
Newcomer
***POSSIBLE SPOILER***
I believe that as in the LOTR trilogy you have view the The Matrix movies as one movie not three individual ones, especially 2 & 3. Imagine if you will that you just watched the first half of a movie and didn't get to see the last half.
That being said I believe that Reloaded was an incredible first half of a full movie. My theory is that the Zion is still part of a secondary Matrix that is purposely unplugged by the architect from the main Matrix. Several things have made me come to this conclusion.
1. The architect is looking for the perfect mathematical formula for the Matrix, thereby allowing Zion to be recreated over & over again he can further study the effect of The One on the general Matrix population & the secondary Matrix (Zion) population.
2. Neo was able to control the machines in the "so-called" real world. This is a problem that the architect will want to further study. The Zion Matrix should be separated from the main Matrix.
3. This also is where the 3rd installment gets its sub-title (Revolutions). I believe the "revolution" will be revealed that Neo & company are still plugged into the Matrix.
What do you guys think of my theory?
I believe that as in the LOTR trilogy you have view the The Matrix movies as one movie not three individual ones, especially 2 & 3. Imagine if you will that you just watched the first half of a movie and didn't get to see the last half.
That being said I believe that Reloaded was an incredible first half of a full movie. My theory is that the Zion is still part of a secondary Matrix that is purposely unplugged by the architect from the main Matrix. Several things have made me come to this conclusion.
1. The architect is looking for the perfect mathematical formula for the Matrix, thereby allowing Zion to be recreated over & over again he can further study the effect of The One on the general Matrix population & the secondary Matrix (Zion) population.
2. Neo was able to control the machines in the "so-called" real world. This is a problem that the architect will want to further study. The Zion Matrix should be separated from the main Matrix.
3. This also is where the 3rd installment gets its sub-title (Revolutions). I believe the "revolution" will be revealed that Neo & company are still plugged into the Matrix.
What do you guys think of my theory?
I don't see how you can say that. After the first film, all I wanted was to see Neo kick some more ass now that he is officially The One. And Reloaded has totally satisfied me in that respect. Neo fighting a hundred Agent Smiths and batting them into the sky was just powerful, exactly what I was hoping for. As for lack of memorable moves, I know I'll remember Neo swatting Smith into the sky and another into through the window, and stopping all hundred or so bullets that Merovingian's men fired at him, and also during his fight against Merovingian's men, when he stops a sword with the edge of his hand and gets a tiny cut from it. That was most paradoxical, wouldn't you say?
Matrix 1 was the origin story of Superman. Now, if Superman didn't have a weakness (kryptonite) or didn't do something stupid (give up powers for a woman) the Superman movies would have been immensely boring.
Superman's second weakness is that he's not very bright compared to Lex Luthor.
Superman's second weakness is that he's not very bright compared to Lex Luthor.
