Matrix Revolutions blows - SPOILER WARNING

[Natoma]

Yes, I know you said that. Here's my "translation":

"I really wanted this to be a good film. So despite any of the negative crap I've been hearing about it, I went into the movie looking for ways to "discard" or ignore such criticism. And that's just what I did. "

Yea....... :?

Sorry to say, but your "translation" as it were, is wrong. But whatever. Believe what you will.

 

[Dave Baumann]

No, he's out of the Matrix. In first movie, we learn that Neo can sense the unreality of the Matrix, even before he is unplugged. Morpheus puts it into words when he explains, "it's like a splinter in your mind, driving you mad." So if Neo can sense when he is in a Matrix, and he does not apparently sense it when he's in Zion or the real world, then the real world is not another Matrix.

Yes, but the Matrix is a program - how do we know that another program hasn't been written that makes him think he's escaped from the Matrix into the 'real world' of Zion, but in fact that 'real world' is constructed of a more elaborate program (or a "Matrix within a Matrix")?

 

[Tim Murray]

Because of Godel's Incompleteness Theorem. The same problem would show up in the Zion Matrix that showed up in the Matrix Matrix. So it's not a Matrix within a Matrix. Neener.

--edit--for the record, I HATE the Matrix within a Matrix theory. It seems like such a stupid hacked way to end it. And apparently, the Wachowskis (or Keanu) said that it's not a Matrix within a Matrix in some interview... looking for it now.--

 

[Dave Baumann]

No, thats the point the 'Zion' matrix may have been another construction purposely built for those that feel there is something wrong with the Matrix - give them something to fool them into thinking they've escaped the Matrix! The same This doesn't have to be the same program as the Matrix.

 

[Tim Murray]

But it would all come back to the same thing--contradictions in the system would arise and a One would be created. Then the process where the code contained within the One (I still haven't figured that out exactly) is reintegrated with the Matrix would have to be repeated.

More than that, I don't think they NEED to have a Matrix within a Matrix. The "real world" is at least as oppressive as the Matrix with the machines and all that. They fight, sure, but they're still controlled by the Oracle.

--edit--oh, and Natoma, did you post a huge explanation of Reloaded on another board? been reading this, and if it is you, it's definitely one of the best Reloaded posts I've read.--/edit--

 

[fbg1]

Yes, but the Matrix is a program - how do we know that another program hasn't been written that makes him think he's escaped from the Matrix into the 'real world' of Zion, but in fact that 'real world' is constructed of a more elaborate program (or a "Matrix within a Matrix")?

If the machines could write a second Matrix that tricks even The One, then why didn't they incorporate such code into the first Matrix, solving the entire problem and negating the raison d'etre of the movies? The simplest explanation is that they can't write such code, they are simply unable to create a Matrix that convinces all 100% of humanity it is real, and that there is only one Matrix. That's basically what the Architect explains, so assuming he didn't lie to Neo about that, the real world is truly real.

 

[pax]

Yeah Id have to say the lawnmower man and matrix in a matrix idea are both weak. I want to be surprised in the 3rd movie as to how neo saves the world but somehow I think the only way that I will be surprised is if someone other than neo does the actual saving... I think neo's shorting out the sentinels will be one of few real live things he can do... If his real world powers go into overdrive and he saves zion that way Ill be dissapointed (unless the kung-fu and action blow me away ;D but even then story would be dissapointing)...

and other than smith which is already a recurring theme among many...

The overwhelming theme of reloaded however is that of interdependance between man and machines... the resolution is likely to be a variant of that.

 

[Vince]

I HATE the Matrix within a Matrix theory. It seems like such a stupid hacked way to end it. And apparently, the Wachowskis (or Keanu) said that it's not a Matrix within a Matrix in some interview... looking for it now.--

Agreed! The Matrix is just too brilliantly constructed, from it's borrowing from classical to contemporary thinking in the realms of the physical, metaphysical, philisophical, and beyond. I'm still taken back from the though that's gone into this series in little ways that most people will undoubtedly pass over, yet have a long history and basis in human knowledge.

For example, I stated it in this thread before, but I still think the scene with the architect where there were a plathora of TV's surrounding them following the Ergodicity Principle that's deeply rooted in post-Everett Quantum Mechanics. Hell, the entire series and it's questioning of Causuality...

So, when a friend of mine (very offbeat for him) stated and then argued that it's something as simplistic as a Matrix-in-Matrix; I hit the roof

 

[fbg1]

Ergodicity Principle that's deeply rooted in post-Everett Quantum Mechanics.

I'm unfamiliar with that Principle; does it have to do with the Multiverse, perchance? That was my first thought upon seeing Neo's different reactions in the TVs.

 

[Tim Murray]

I never thought the TV screens really had anything to do with Schrodinger's Cat or the many-worlds theory.. it seemed that the Architect, who had studied humanity and had a better understanding of them than anyone else in the universe, was trying to point out to Neo that he doesn't matter in the long run, and that nothing he does can really change anything. The TV screens were just a tool to manipulate Neo into believing that.

Or so I thought...

 

[Vince]

Ergodicity Principle that's deeply rooted in post-Everett Quantum Mechanics.

I'm unfamiliar with that Principle; does it have to do with the Multiverse, perchance? That was my first thought upon seeing Neo's different reactions in the TVs.

Very Nice, you got it. The Ergodicity Principle is a way of showing in the quantum world the behaviour of a temporal series as judged analagously with a spatial one. So, basically, take the hierarchy of possible worlds (multiverses) that exist and grow threw the temporal dimension and show them as parralled dimensions in space.

So, you were thinking the same thing. Multiverse, Level 3 IIRC.

 

[Vince]

error

 

[Vince]

Your explanation of his character would certainly fulfill half of the duality of the purpose/existence of The Merovingian.

I think you're trying to find meaning in a cigar, personally.

Actually Russ, you would appear to be wrong.

According to the prevailing legend - the Merovingians relinquished control of the Holy Grain to a group by the name of Prieure du Notre Dame du Sion, better know as the Order/Priory of Zion.

They were an order who emerged from Mt. Sion (also known as Mt. Zion in the OT) which is located in Jerusalem and is where Jesus had his infamous Last Supper.

EDIT: Does any religious fanatic (or those so enlightened) know how many times the Temple on Mt. (S)Zion was destroyed and rebuilt?

 

[Tim Murray]

On a semi-Matrix-related note, has anyone here seen Bound, the Wachowskis' first movie?

 

[Bambers]

Personally I thought the TV screens were a way to exploit on the whole philosophy rubbish, by the looks of things it worked well

 

[RussSchultz]

Not that I'm a religious fanatic, but the temple on the mount has been destroyed a couple/few times and at the moment is not rebuilt. The one website I looked at mentions it being repaired, etc., so its tough to count exactly how many times it was "rebuilt". You might be able to stretch it to 5 or 6, but again, I think you'd be stretching the facts to marginally fit what you want it to be when analyzing the movie.

But to fuel on your speculation:
Its part of the Jewish prophecy that the messiah will return, restore the kingdom of Israel and rebuild the temple. This prophecy is what guides the (relatively fringe) ultra orthadox jews that all the leftists refer to as "jews who feel israel should not exist" and therefor support their anti-israel/pro-palestinian agenda.

So, if you equate Neo with the messiah and zion with the temple mount, perhaps he'll finally restore zion to the way God intended it.

 

[Joe DeFuria]

According to the prevailing legend - the Merovingians relinquished control of the Holy Grain...

Wheat? Barley?

 

[John Reynolds]

According to the prevailing legend - the Merovingians relinquished control of the Holy Grain...

Wheat? Barley?

LOL I was just sitting here thinking, "You know, the n and l keys aren't even close to each other. . . ."

 

[fbg1]

The Ergodicity Principle is a way of showing in the quantum world the behaviour of a temporal series as judged analagously with a spatial one. So, basically, take the hierarchy of possible worlds (multiverses) that exist and grow threw the temporal dimension and show them as parralled dimensions in space.

So, you were thinking the same thing. Multiverse, Level 3 IIRC.

I think a lot of people misunderstood that point, b/c the instant before the Architect filled the monitors with Neo's face, he said the following:

The Architect: Quite right. Interesting. That was quicker than the others.

*Architect clicks pen, fills monitors with Neo's face*

Neo (on the monitors): Others? What others? How many? Answer me!

Many people seem to have mistaken that gesture to mean that all the previous others were Neo, that the others are all essentially clones of the same guy, and that the Architect was simply showing the previous The Ones' responses to that same info.

Of course, there were infinite monitors (assuming they stretch infinitely upwards in that room), and only six The Ones, so the Multiverse is the better fitting of the two explanations.

 

[Tim Murray]

Of course, there were infinite monitors (assuming they stretch infinitely upwards in that room), and only six The Ones, so the Multiverse is the better fitting of the two explanations.

I thought the room was essentially a half-sphere? Maybe I'm insane... only seen it once, so you do the math.