Matrix Revolutions blows - SPOILER WARNING
- Thread starter K.I.L.E.R
- Start date
Guys, I will make a bet with you all who disagree.
If Neo dies at the end of Revolutions, you guys will add this line to your sigs:
K.I.L.E.R rules and I love him.
If I am wrong, then I will add in my sig:
I was talking out of my ass when I made the Matrix Revolutions thread.
Deal?
If Neo dies at the end of Revolutions, you guys will add this line to your sigs:
K.I.L.E.R rules and I love him.
If I am wrong, then I will add in my sig:
I was talking out of my ass when I made the Matrix Revolutions thread.
Deal?
What's your point? You have no special information that you are privy to, you are just making endless speculation that thousands of others have done in the past, but in more detail. Atleast others have tried to back up their speculation with analysis of the movies and religious symbolism.
Yours is just "woah dude, I have a hunch Neo will die at the end of Revolutions"
Yours is just "woah dude, I have a hunch Neo will die at the end of Revolutions"
Warning! Spoilers!
I need to see the film a second time but I thought I understood from the architect that in fact no one has left the matrix yet. The destroying of zion 5 times over with only a handlful allowed to survive seems hard to believe no one would know about the previous zions unless they were plugged in where they could be manipulated into thinking it wasnt previously destroyed but still just the first zion in fact. Pretty complex story. The original problem I had with the energy thing is compounded but it now seems the machines dont really need human energy for some of them anyway. I also think neo isnt human. He might be another sophisticated sentient program...
The fact neo was able to stop the sentinel attack seems to me to indicate they are still in the matrix and its in fact just another software layer to create a deeper illusion. Hmm hope this isnt a spoiler on the third movie
...
So I guess the 20th century or part of the 20th and the 21st continually recycle and now about to enter the 6th if the architect gets his way... Not sure we can trust him anymore than the oracle tho. It might just be another manipulation... I can hardly wait for the 3rd flick. I love these brain teasers. Dont you get the idea that the matrix is keeping people involved in a wild goose chase that probably keeps increasing in sophistication in each of its iterations so as to keep them subjugated. I think the architect wanted neo to step outside the other door back to the matrix... I dont think this is about engery anymore... theres something else giong one like maybe the mahcines are studying humans in some giant laboratory... Belucci's desire for emotions... maybe machines are only basically sentient but arent fully aware and\or capabale of emotions as we are thus they retained us to gain those last abilities...
dang certainly one of the better written flicks of the year if not the most action packed... itll keep me guessing till november
I need to see the film a second time but I thought I understood from the architect that in fact no one has left the matrix yet. The destroying of zion 5 times over with only a handlful allowed to survive seems hard to believe no one would know about the previous zions unless they were plugged in where they could be manipulated into thinking it wasnt previously destroyed but still just the first zion in fact. Pretty complex story. The original problem I had with the energy thing is compounded but it now seems the machines dont really need human energy for some of them anyway. I also think neo isnt human. He might be another sophisticated sentient program...
The fact neo was able to stop the sentinel attack seems to me to indicate they are still in the matrix and its in fact just another software layer to create a deeper illusion. Hmm hope this isnt a spoiler on the third movie
...So I guess the 20th century or part of the 20th and the 21st continually recycle and now about to enter the 6th if the architect gets his way... Not sure we can trust him anymore than the oracle tho. It might just be another manipulation... I can hardly wait for the 3rd flick. I love these brain teasers. Dont you get the idea that the matrix is keeping people involved in a wild goose chase that probably keeps increasing in sophistication in each of its iterations so as to keep them subjugated. I think the architect wanted neo to step outside the other door back to the matrix... I dont think this is about engery anymore... theres something else giong one like maybe the mahcines are studying humans in some giant laboratory... Belucci's desire for emotions... maybe machines are only basically sentient but arent fully aware and\or capabale of emotions as we are thus they retained us to gain those last abilities...
dang certainly one of the better written flicks of the year if not the most action packed... itll keep me guessing till november
I highly doubt you have any inside info. Just go to matrixfans.net. This is the most "connected" website there is for matrix news. Many of the people who WORKED on the movies have been posting there. All of the leaked scripts and info have appeared there first. Leaked scriptment, leaked video game, leaked images, people who were extras on the film dealing what went down, people who worked on the FX leaking info, etc. Since it has not appeared on any of the matrix insider newssites, it hasn't been leaked yet.
If you think you have something real, then PM me. Otherwise, you are blowing smoke. The real test will be if you can explain how Neo was able to do what he did as his last act at the end of Reloaded.
If you think you have something real, then PM me. Otherwise, you are blowing smoke. The real test will be if you can explain how Neo was able to do what he did as his last act at the end of Reloaded.
Joe DeFuria
Legend
Re: Warning! Spoilers!
Indeed..."Groundhog Day" on steriods!
pax said:
Indeed..."Groundhog Day" on steriods!
Joe DeFuria
Legend
Re: Warning! Spoilers!
I had not gotten that impression from the Architect myself...interesting thought though.
We do know from the first movie, that you can supposedly be plugged back in and "made to forget again".
What's your original problem with the energy thing? (Mine is that AFAIK, humans aren't terribly efficient at producing harnessable energy...it would take more energy to grow and sustain them than you can get back out of them....)
Well, certainly humans aren't needed for ALL energy production. Presumably, it's needed to sustain a certain machine population though.
I think he is both. He is a human body, with a human mind, but who has some sentient program / AI integrated. Much the same as (can't remember his name), the latest Agent who infiltrated the human world.
They are both "Anomolies."
Alternatively, Neo is learning how to use his sentient abilities to "communicate" (interact with) with other "real wold" machines.
Heh, what usually ends up happening, is the actual plot as it will unfold in the 3rd movie, isn't nearly as good as what a bunch of us are thinking "could" happen.
Here's my Cliffs-Notes summation:
The architect has learned (after the first "Paradise" matrix failure) that he cannot control what humans "choose" to do / believe. He just can't guarantee himself control of 100% of the human mind, even if he believes he has given them no real choice. (Who would choose NOT to live in paradise? So if you construct a paradise, why bother allowing them to make choices? Shouldn't they just be satisfied to be there?) By not giving humans a "choice", you are doomed to have a "system crash".
So having learned this, he tries to construct a universe to try and "fool" humans into thinking they are making choices pertinent to their own lives (Matrix versions 2-6 apparently). This works for the most part.
However, at least on some subconsciousl level, humans are still apaprently aware that they are not making real choices. There are "small errors" like this all over the place, that the system needs to ultimately deal with. They can't just be ignored or you'll end up with yet another crash eventually. Neo (The Anomoly) seems to be explained by the Architect as the sum of the propagation of these errors. Neo is the Architect's way to do a periodic and proactive "controlled reboot" of the system, to avoid a system crash.
Ultimately, Neo has to make the "choice" himself though, because that is the very nature of the error.
So everything the architect does is all psychology to get Neo at least believe he is making a choice "that matters."
Actually, I don't think that the architect cared which way he chose. As long as he convinced Neo that the choice he was making "makes a difference." Presumably, the architect has plans to deal with whatever choice Neo makes. The question is, will Neo do something after making the choice, that the Architect didn't anticipate?
I'll just stick with the energy thing myself.
I'll certainly go and see it again, to see what else I can "pick up." I'm interested in seeing if Morpheus has a nervous breakdown now that his "religion" has been debunked.
pax said:
I had not gotten that impression from the Architect myself...interesting thought though.
We do know from the first movie, that you can supposedly be plugged back in and "made to forget again".
What's your original problem with the energy thing? (Mine is that AFAIK, humans aren't terribly efficient at producing harnessable energy...it would take more energy to grow and sustain them than you can get back out of them....)
Well, certainly humans aren't needed for ALL energy production. Presumably, it's needed to sustain a certain machine population though.
I think he is both. He is a human body, with a human mind, but who has some sentient program / AI integrated. Much the same as (can't remember his name), the latest Agent who infiltrated the human world.
They are both "Anomolies."
The fact neo was able to stop the sentinel attack seems to me to indicate they are still in the matrix and its in fact just another software layer to create a deeper illusion. Hmm hope this isnt a spoiler on the third movie
Alternatively, Neo is learning how to use his sentient abilities to "communicate" (interact with) with other "real wold" machines.
Heh, what usually ends up happening, is the actual plot as it will unfold in the 3rd movie, isn't nearly as good as what a bunch of us are thinking "could" happen.
Here's my Cliffs-Notes summation:
The architect has learned (after the first "Paradise" matrix failure) that he cannot control what humans "choose" to do / believe. He just can't guarantee himself control of 100% of the human mind, even if he believes he has given them no real choice. (Who would choose NOT to live in paradise? So if you construct a paradise, why bother allowing them to make choices? Shouldn't they just be satisfied to be there?) By not giving humans a "choice", you are doomed to have a "system crash".
So having learned this, he tries to construct a universe to try and "fool" humans into thinking they are making choices pertinent to their own lives (Matrix versions 2-6 apparently). This works for the most part.
However, at least on some subconsciousl level, humans are still apaprently aware that they are not making real choices. There are "small errors" like this all over the place, that the system needs to ultimately deal with. They can't just be ignored or you'll end up with yet another crash eventually. Neo (The Anomoly) seems to be explained by the Architect as the sum of the propagation of these errors. Neo is the Architect's way to do a periodic and proactive "controlled reboot" of the system, to avoid a system crash.
Ultimately, Neo has to make the "choice" himself though, because that is the very nature of the error.
So everything the architect does is all psychology to get Neo at least believe he is making a choice "that matters."
Actually, I don't think that the architect cared which way he chose. As long as he convinced Neo that the choice he was making "makes a difference." Presumably, the architect has plans to deal with whatever choice Neo makes. The question is, will Neo do something after making the choice, that the Architect didn't anticipate?
I'll just stick with the energy thing myself.
dang certainly one of the better written flicks of the year if not the most action packed... itll keep me guessing till november
I'll certainly go and see it again, to see what else I can "pick up." I'm interested in seeing if Morpheus has a nervous breakdown now that his "religion" has been debunked.
Ok I saw Reloaded last night and after having a good 2-3hr discourse with my friends about the film, I think anyone who didn't understand it and didn't like the film "didn't get it." Don't get me wrong, that's not a knock. But the things I've heard don't jive with what is really in the film, in terms of the depth of meaning.
This movie *needs* an after film discourse, and needs to be seen multiple times. There were certainly a few parts where I had to suspend my disbelief even moreso (burly brawl, but even then, it really was heads and tails above anything we've ever seen. Hello, anyone remember the CGI in Blade 2? Now try to imagine a camera swooping in and out of that drivel), but the film as a story was chock full of plot.
I can try to answer any questions/problems that people have had with the film. I did that with my partner last night after he said he really didn't like the film, didn't understand it. After we talked with our friends about the movie, he was like "Holy shit."
I can just put it like this simply. The Matrix made me question what is real and what is virtually generated. Reloaded made me question the first Matrix. They were almost polar opposites in every facet
Matrix 1: Morpheus wakes up Neo to the truth about the world and his purpose, and informs him that he's part of a larger system that he helps perpetuate by staying asleep.
Matrix 2: Neo wakes up Morpheus to the truth of his existence, and how he's been "used" along with all other Zion humans, to continue to perpetuate the system.
Matrix 1: Trinity revives Neo after bullet wounds to his chest with the kiss of love.
Matrix 2: Neo revives Trinity after a bullet wound to the chest by the power of his love and his ability to manipulate her digital self.
Btw, I think that when Neo entered her Matrix code, he was in fact shutting down the signals that her Matrix self was sending to her body that said "Die, you've been shot." Remember, only Neo had the ability to fully control his surroundings. For the rest of them, the Matrix was more powerful than their ability to keep from dying, even when receiving a digital "mortal wound." Neo changed her code to shut down that signal, which is why he removed the bullet first, then jump started her heart.
Matrix 1: The Oracle says "What will really bake your noodle later on is, would you still have broken it if I hadn't said anything" when speaking with Neo about the Vase. Makes you wonder about a lot of things. If this is all about choice, and how we are influenced by suggestive comments, what about the rest of their "choices?"
I think the Oracle planted Trinity's love for Neo, and Neo's love for Trinity, through suggestion. More on this in the "Matrix 2" portion.
Matrix 2: During the scene with the Architect, I got the feeling that in the prior 5 incarnations of "The One," they all chose to rejoin the Matrix in order to save all mankind. If you remember, the Architect told Neo that the previous 5 went into the door because they felt an overwhelming connection to their species, i.e. the human race.
I think the Oracle realized this. I think she created Trinity and Neo's love affair in the 6th iteration in order to try and break the cycle. That's why she told Trinity that she would definitely fall in love with the one. Looking back at the first one, I think Trinity was scoping him out and really looking for that love. Then the Oracle told Neo, "I can see why she likes you." From Neo's reaction, he obviously didn't have a clue who that was, so I don't think he was really looking to be in love. However, once the Oracle gave him that hint, he either consciously or subconsciously began trying to figure out who it was, and they connected.
So I believe their love affair was engineered by the Oracle in order to give Neo another choice. In the past, the Ones had two choices. Rejoin the Matrix to save all of Humanity, or let all of Humanity and the machines die.
And if you recall, that's what M2 has been all about. The choices we are given, and the reasons we choose them.
However this time, the One had a third option. Save the love of his life. And in a rather human display of illogic and emotion, as the architect stated, Neo chose the love of his life, which broke the cycle as the Oracle intended.
Neo was given a choice, but in retrospect, he never had one. From the moment the Oracle "commanded" Trinity and Neo to fall in love, he was already set on the path to choose her over the rest of humanity and the machines.
And that goes back to the point about what is really choice. What is really free will. If there is truly a god (christian that is), did he/she/it really create all of us with free will? That god stated in the bible that we all have free choice, the ability to make up our own minds. The ends of those means are either heaven or hell. However, if god is omniscient, then he/she/it already knows who goes to heaven and hell. So in a sense, it's already been predetermined.
So that gets back to the original point of do we *truly* have free will, and what indeed is free will then?
There are a lot of other mirrors between the first and second film. I'm still trying to get my head around everything. Please forgive the stream of consciousness-like post, but I really needed to get all of this crap out. Believe it or not there's a lot more where this came from. But I'm kind of a philosophy nerd anyways.
Btw, regarding Neo's ability to stop the machines. I do not believe that they are in a Matrix within a Matrix. They are truly in the "real world."
*However,* we've seen what Neo's interactions with the code in the Matrix does. When he entered Smith's code at the end of the first film, they were both enmeshed in one another. Smith said it in the second film. Something about that exchange connected the two in some way that was completely and utterly different than any other connection. Neo can sense Agents now. He can sense Smith now.
I think when he entered the source, he enmeshed with the actual code of the architect, and took that back with him to the real world. I think some of that code gave him the ability to connect to the sentient machines and send direct signals to them. Remember, he's many parts machine now (the plugs). Considering they are tied directly to his nervous system, if he gives off enough bioelectric energy from his brain (which all you biology majors should remember we use to send our nerve impulses throughout our body), he can send a brief "Stop!" command to the sentinels over a very short distance. They were on top of him.
And I think that's why he went into a coma after that. Because he had expended so much bioelectric nervous energy that his mind needed time to recuperate.
--------------------
Now, everyone remember the 'system failure' at the end of the first matrix? I believe that is what the architect was talking about. When Neo became "The One," the matrix began to break down. That's why the rebels freed more people in the last 6 months than they had in the prior 6 years. The Matrix was breaking down and more and more people were becoming aware of the truth.
That is why the architect said that if Neo didn't rejoin the Matrix and disperse his code to the new matrix, everything and everyone would die. This continuous cycle of birth, death, and regeneration was necessary in order to keep the codebase fresh and appealing for the billions of minds connected to the system.
I'm thinking more on this particular bit, so please don't mind the brevity of my discussion on this portion.
----------------------------------------
In the first matrix, morpheus summed up what the matrix truly was. When we first saw the matrix, we believed he was strictly speaking about the actual virtual world. However, I believe that the matrix is not the virtual world. I believe it's the virtual world + Zion.
"What is the matrix? Control. The Matrix is a computer generated dream world built to keep us under control in order to change a human being into this."
Then he holds up a battery. However, I think his speech needs to be editted.
"What is the matrix? Control. The Matrix is a construct built to keep us under control in order to change a human being into this."
Cue the battery.
The Matrix is the virtual world, *and* it is Zion. But only the virtual world is encoded. The machines were able to get their programming of the matrix to a 99% acceptance rate. However, 1% of the population would reject the code, and one of that 1% would become an anomaly so large that he/she would become "The One." In order to keep the system running smoothly, they had to build in a contingency for that 1% to leave the virtual world, make a choice as it were.
That is why they were allowed to leave the Matrix and build their city of Zion. In order to give them purpose. As smith stated in the second film, what are we without purpose to our lives? Nothing.
However, once The One reached the source, he was to disperse his code back into the original matrix, and choose 23 new human beings to start a new zion. He would create a prophecy that another "One" just like him would follow and hail the destruction of the matrix. It gave that 1% of the population a purpose in life. It gave them meaning.
It was the means by which the matrix could be purged of the "rabble rousers" and the rest of humanity kept under wraps. The entire first film was all engineered by the uber creators of the Matrix.
Btw, I think that when the one joined the matrix and dispersed his code, it gave everyone born into the matrix a subconscious choice. Would they accept the world around them, or would they not. That is why Morpheus in the first film stated that "You've felt something was wrong with the world your entire life, you don't know what it is, but it's there, like a splinter in your mind, driving you mad."
I think that that 1% of the population makes the subconscious choice to live outside the matrix, and thus they are "gifted" with the ability to change the matrix in little ways. The "gift" as the oracle would say. Some with the "gift" are more powerful than others obviously, and one is so powerful that he becomes "The One."
As I said, I have a lot of crap in my head. I have to stop cause I have to take a shower, but this is really just a starting point. I think this is a fantastic film, full of deep meaning and textual layering.
One of the best films I've ever seen. I simply cannot wait for Revolutions.
I love films that make you think and doesn't pander to the lowest common denominator of "Just give me action! The opiate for the masses! Who wants to think??!!"
This movie *needs* an after film discourse, and needs to be seen multiple times. There were certainly a few parts where I had to suspend my disbelief even moreso (burly brawl, but even then, it really was heads and tails above anything we've ever seen. Hello, anyone remember the CGI in Blade 2? Now try to imagine a camera swooping in and out of that drivel), but the film as a story was chock full of plot.
I can try to answer any questions/problems that people have had with the film. I did that with my partner last night after he said he really didn't like the film, didn't understand it. After we talked with our friends about the movie, he was like "Holy shit."
I can just put it like this simply. The Matrix made me question what is real and what is virtually generated. Reloaded made me question the first Matrix. They were almost polar opposites in every facet
Matrix 1: Morpheus wakes up Neo to the truth about the world and his purpose, and informs him that he's part of a larger system that he helps perpetuate by staying asleep.
Matrix 2: Neo wakes up Morpheus to the truth of his existence, and how he's been "used" along with all other Zion humans, to continue to perpetuate the system.
Matrix 1: Trinity revives Neo after bullet wounds to his chest with the kiss of love.
Matrix 2: Neo revives Trinity after a bullet wound to the chest by the power of his love and his ability to manipulate her digital self.
Btw, I think that when Neo entered her Matrix code, he was in fact shutting down the signals that her Matrix self was sending to her body that said "Die, you've been shot." Remember, only Neo had the ability to fully control his surroundings. For the rest of them, the Matrix was more powerful than their ability to keep from dying, even when receiving a digital "mortal wound." Neo changed her code to shut down that signal, which is why he removed the bullet first, then jump started her heart.
Matrix 1: The Oracle says "What will really bake your noodle later on is, would you still have broken it if I hadn't said anything" when speaking with Neo about the Vase. Makes you wonder about a lot of things. If this is all about choice, and how we are influenced by suggestive comments, what about the rest of their "choices?"
I think the Oracle planted Trinity's love for Neo, and Neo's love for Trinity, through suggestion. More on this in the "Matrix 2" portion.
Matrix 2: During the scene with the Architect, I got the feeling that in the prior 5 incarnations of "The One," they all chose to rejoin the Matrix in order to save all mankind. If you remember, the Architect told Neo that the previous 5 went into the door because they felt an overwhelming connection to their species, i.e. the human race.
I think the Oracle realized this. I think she created Trinity and Neo's love affair in the 6th iteration in order to try and break the cycle. That's why she told Trinity that she would definitely fall in love with the one. Looking back at the first one, I think Trinity was scoping him out and really looking for that love. Then the Oracle told Neo, "I can see why she likes you." From Neo's reaction, he obviously didn't have a clue who that was, so I don't think he was really looking to be in love. However, once the Oracle gave him that hint, he either consciously or subconsciously began trying to figure out who it was, and they connected.
So I believe their love affair was engineered by the Oracle in order to give Neo another choice. In the past, the Ones had two choices. Rejoin the Matrix to save all of Humanity, or let all of Humanity and the machines die.
And if you recall, that's what M2 has been all about. The choices we are given, and the reasons we choose them.
However this time, the One had a third option. Save the love of his life. And in a rather human display of illogic and emotion, as the architect stated, Neo chose the love of his life, which broke the cycle as the Oracle intended.
Neo was given a choice, but in retrospect, he never had one. From the moment the Oracle "commanded" Trinity and Neo to fall in love, he was already set on the path to choose her over the rest of humanity and the machines.
And that goes back to the point about what is really choice. What is really free will. If there is truly a god (christian that is), did he/she/it really create all of us with free will? That god stated in the bible that we all have free choice, the ability to make up our own minds. The ends of those means are either heaven or hell. However, if god is omniscient, then he/she/it already knows who goes to heaven and hell. So in a sense, it's already been predetermined.
So that gets back to the original point of do we *truly* have free will, and what indeed is free will then?
There are a lot of other mirrors between the first and second film. I'm still trying to get my head around everything. Please forgive the stream of consciousness-like post, but I really needed to get all of this crap out. Believe it or not there's a lot more where this came from. But I'm kind of a philosophy nerd anyways.
Btw, regarding Neo's ability to stop the machines. I do not believe that they are in a Matrix within a Matrix. They are truly in the "real world."
*However,* we've seen what Neo's interactions with the code in the Matrix does. When he entered Smith's code at the end of the first film, they were both enmeshed in one another. Smith said it in the second film. Something about that exchange connected the two in some way that was completely and utterly different than any other connection. Neo can sense Agents now. He can sense Smith now.
I think when he entered the source, he enmeshed with the actual code of the architect, and took that back with him to the real world. I think some of that code gave him the ability to connect to the sentient machines and send direct signals to them. Remember, he's many parts machine now (the plugs). Considering they are tied directly to his nervous system, if he gives off enough bioelectric energy from his brain (which all you biology majors should remember we use to send our nerve impulses throughout our body), he can send a brief "Stop!" command to the sentinels over a very short distance. They were on top of him.
And I think that's why he went into a coma after that. Because he had expended so much bioelectric nervous energy that his mind needed time to recuperate.
--------------------
Now, everyone remember the 'system failure' at the end of the first matrix? I believe that is what the architect was talking about. When Neo became "The One," the matrix began to break down. That's why the rebels freed more people in the last 6 months than they had in the prior 6 years. The Matrix was breaking down and more and more people were becoming aware of the truth.
That is why the architect said that if Neo didn't rejoin the Matrix and disperse his code to the new matrix, everything and everyone would die. This continuous cycle of birth, death, and regeneration was necessary in order to keep the codebase fresh and appealing for the billions of minds connected to the system.
I'm thinking more on this particular bit, so please don't mind the brevity of my discussion on this portion.
----------------------------------------
In the first matrix, morpheus summed up what the matrix truly was. When we first saw the matrix, we believed he was strictly speaking about the actual virtual world. However, I believe that the matrix is not the virtual world. I believe it's the virtual world + Zion.
"What is the matrix? Control. The Matrix is a computer generated dream world built to keep us under control in order to change a human being into this."
Then he holds up a battery. However, I think his speech needs to be editted.
"What is the matrix? Control. The Matrix is a construct built to keep us under control in order to change a human being into this."
Cue the battery.
The Matrix is the virtual world, *and* it is Zion. But only the virtual world is encoded. The machines were able to get their programming of the matrix to a 99% acceptance rate. However, 1% of the population would reject the code, and one of that 1% would become an anomaly so large that he/she would become "The One." In order to keep the system running smoothly, they had to build in a contingency for that 1% to leave the virtual world, make a choice as it were.
That is why they were allowed to leave the Matrix and build their city of Zion. In order to give them purpose. As smith stated in the second film, what are we without purpose to our lives? Nothing.
However, once The One reached the source, he was to disperse his code back into the original matrix, and choose 23 new human beings to start a new zion. He would create a prophecy that another "One" just like him would follow and hail the destruction of the matrix. It gave that 1% of the population a purpose in life. It gave them meaning.
It was the means by which the matrix could be purged of the "rabble rousers" and the rest of humanity kept under wraps. The entire first film was all engineered by the uber creators of the Matrix.
Btw, I think that when the one joined the matrix and dispersed his code, it gave everyone born into the matrix a subconscious choice. Would they accept the world around them, or would they not. That is why Morpheus in the first film stated that "You've felt something was wrong with the world your entire life, you don't know what it is, but it's there, like a splinter in your mind, driving you mad."
I think that that 1% of the population makes the subconscious choice to live outside the matrix, and thus they are "gifted" with the ability to change the matrix in little ways. The "gift" as the oracle would say. Some with the "gift" are more powerful than others obviously, and one is so powerful that he becomes "The One."
As I said, I have a lot of crap in my head. I have to stop cause I have to take a shower, but this is really just a starting point. I think this is a fantastic film, full of deep meaning and textual layering.
One of the best films I've ever seen. I simply cannot wait for Revolutions.
I love films that make you think and doesn't pander to the lowest common denominator of "Just give me action! The opiate for the masses! Who wants to think??!!"
I do enjoy how the people who absolutely love this movie simply dismiss folks who arent as enamored with the movie as "not understanding it", or even "not cerebral enough". (I"m not bagging on you specifically, Natoma, i've seen it in just about every internet discussion of the movie).
As a movie (ignoring the philisophical discussion) I felt that it had:
-poor pacing
-too much unnecessary kung fu
-poor flow (many disparate scenes that were simply stuck together with kung fu)
-overuse of the now ubiquitous slow motion fight scene. Beyond it being jarring, it seemed like it was simply sprinkled in randomly in otherwise non-interesting portions of the choreography. Particularly bad when used in the completely CGI generated scenes--it showed them for exactly what they were (like when the agent jumped from car to car).
I realise that it's an action flick, and well, that demands there be action, but some scenes were action for action sake or went on way too long. I found myself (more than once) thinking "damn, another kung fu scene. get on with the plot!"
Small editing things I noticed:
-one of the cars that flipped over on the freeway was missing its drive-axle.
-Caddillac must have paid a bundle to be so featured
As a movie (ignoring the philisophical discussion) I felt that it had:
-poor pacing
-too much unnecessary kung fu
-poor flow (many disparate scenes that were simply stuck together with kung fu)
-overuse of the now ubiquitous slow motion fight scene. Beyond it being jarring, it seemed like it was simply sprinkled in randomly in otherwise non-interesting portions of the choreography. Particularly bad when used in the completely CGI generated scenes--it showed them for exactly what they were (like when the agent jumped from car to car).
I realise that it's an action flick, and well, that demands there be action, but some scenes were action for action sake or went on way too long. I found myself (more than once) thinking "damn, another kung fu scene. get on with the plot!"
Small editing things I noticed:
-one of the cars that flipped over on the freeway was missing its drive-axle.
-Caddillac must have paid a bundle to be so featured
KILER u're a prick...
I know this will cost me my first warning for personal insults but i don't care. it's not like i insult people as a hobby, but this one deserves it.
U should change ur name to P.R.I.C.K.
U knew very well what u were doing when u did that first post without spoiler warning, still u did it.
Whether this whole thing is real or not.
I know this will cost me my first warning for personal insults but i don't care. it's not like i insult people as a hobby, but this one deserves it.
U should change ur name to P.R.I.C.K.
U knew very well what u were doing when u did that first post without spoiler warning, still u did it.
Whether this whole thing is real or not.
Russ:
I think you can find problems with any film. The first Matrix had tons of them. Keanu's acting was 'meh' and in many ways so was trinity's acting. There were many portions of the first film that looked *very* CG (bullet time, trinity jumping from the building directly into the window, the neb landing, the initial looks of the sentinels, etc etc etc), but you suspended that because of the story.
The sex scenes/zion orgies were, to be sure, a little overdone, but given the story I was willing to look past it because it only lasted 5 minutes. However, I'm wondering if it was done in that manner to show the "humanity" of the zion inhabitants. Remember what mouse said in the first film? To deny our impulses is to deny the very thing that makes us human.
Now, that's not to say that in order to be human one has to have giant orgies and whatnot. But consider where they live, and what they are. They are basically cyborgs who once lived in a virtual construct, who now live in a cave that is driven by machines, though not sentient. I think the orgy scenes were to stress the dichotomy of the human/machine relationship, what makes us human, and them, not. Or something along those lines.
I'm not sure what you would describe as unnecessary kung fu. Any specific points?
When discussing the flow of the film, editing wise, it seemed appropriate to me in the sense that it was taking all of the disparate parts of the first and second films and piecing them together into a giant whole. I'm trying to get specific here because that's how I see the different portions of the story.
One last thing to take into account is that this film is really a 5hr film cut in half. They filmed reloaded and revolutions as one giant film. So taking into account the first 2.5hrs, I think revolutions is where all the dialogue and action and plotting will pay off, i.e. basically where the proverbial shit will hit the fan.
Suffice it to say, I was not going in with good feelings about this film, considering all the reviews I've read that were negative and people that walked out saying they didn't like this and like that. But when I started looking at the film in context with the first matrix, and really examining what is behind the philosophies of the entire matrix universe, I realized how deep this film really is, and what the intent of the directors are.
Disclaimer: Now, this is a general comment on moviegoers, and not you in particular russ, or anyone else here.
I find that many people in the moviegoing populace expect a film that lets you sit passively in the theater and spells out all the plot points for you and wraps everything up neatly in a little bow.
I think we as the movie going consumer have become so used to that that whenever a film comes out that is "too smart," people tend to really dislike it. Like I said earlier, when the original matrix came out, there were tons of people who really *really* disliked the film and the action as well. In fact it almost didn't even get made because the execs at WB were afraid it was too smart for the general public. Their words. It's on the behind-the-scenes portion of the DVD.
Considering how much is stuffed into this film, I can understand the reactions of some people in the theater I went to who were like "this film sucked. X2 was better" and whatnot. I consider people who say things like that to be people who just want to be passively entertained and don't want to think about the films they see.
Not everyone, imo, can take a film and deconstruct it effectively, or even want to. There are people to this day that still don't understand the original matrix. I know a few of them. hehe.
That's not a knock on the movie going public, or the film, but I think rather a statement of truth about the current situation in moviemaking.
I think you can find problems with any film. The first Matrix had tons of them. Keanu's acting was 'meh' and in many ways so was trinity's acting. There were many portions of the first film that looked *very* CG (bullet time, trinity jumping from the building directly into the window, the neb landing, the initial looks of the sentinels, etc etc etc), but you suspended that because of the story.
The sex scenes/zion orgies were, to be sure, a little overdone, but given the story I was willing to look past it because it only lasted 5 minutes. However, I'm wondering if it was done in that manner to show the "humanity" of the zion inhabitants. Remember what mouse said in the first film? To deny our impulses is to deny the very thing that makes us human.
Now, that's not to say that in order to be human one has to have giant orgies and whatnot. But consider where they live, and what they are. They are basically cyborgs who once lived in a virtual construct, who now live in a cave that is driven by machines, though not sentient. I think the orgy scenes were to stress the dichotomy of the human/machine relationship, what makes us human, and them, not. Or something along those lines.
I'm not sure what you would describe as unnecessary kung fu. Any specific points?
When discussing the flow of the film, editing wise, it seemed appropriate to me in the sense that it was taking all of the disparate parts of the first and second films and piecing them together into a giant whole. I'm trying to get specific here because that's how I see the different portions of the story.
One last thing to take into account is that this film is really a 5hr film cut in half. They filmed reloaded and revolutions as one giant film. So taking into account the first 2.5hrs, I think revolutions is where all the dialogue and action and plotting will pay off, i.e. basically where the proverbial shit will hit the fan.
Suffice it to say, I was not going in with good feelings about this film, considering all the reviews I've read that were negative and people that walked out saying they didn't like this and like that. But when I started looking at the film in context with the first matrix, and really examining what is behind the philosophies of the entire matrix universe, I realized how deep this film really is, and what the intent of the directors are.
Disclaimer: Now, this is a general comment on moviegoers, and not you in particular russ, or anyone else here.
I find that many people in the moviegoing populace expect a film that lets you sit passively in the theater and spells out all the plot points for you and wraps everything up neatly in a little bow.
I think we as the movie going consumer have become so used to that that whenever a film comes out that is "too smart," people tend to really dislike it. Like I said earlier, when the original matrix came out, there were tons of people who really *really* disliked the film and the action as well. In fact it almost didn't even get made because the execs at WB were afraid it was too smart for the general public. Their words. It's on the behind-the-scenes portion of the DVD.
Considering how much is stuffed into this film, I can understand the reactions of some people in the theater I went to who were like "this film sucked. X2 was better" and whatnot. I consider people who say things like that to be people who just want to be passively entertained and don't want to think about the films they see.
Not everyone, imo, can take a film and deconstruct it effectively, or even want to. There are people to this day that still don't understand the original matrix. I know a few of them. hehe.
That's not a knock on the movie going public, or the film, but I think rather a statement of truth about the current situation in moviemaking.
When I say unecessary kung fu, I'm saying that instead of a science fiction movie that happens to have eastern philosophy and martial arts in it, the movie comes across as a kung fu movie that happens to be in a science fiction setting.
The fight sequence (where Neo remarks about upgrades) was entertaining for the first minute or so , but then wasn't. The fight before the oracle was gratuitious. The big brawl was cool but went on way too long. The fight in the castle; the fight in the car; the fight on top of the trailer; the fight in the building; the fight in the hallway: Each one of them went on and on and on and didn't advance the plot at all.
But that's my opinion. Just don't go calling my differing of opinion a lack of understanding. I know what coconut tastes like; I've had it quite a few times; I still don't like it as much as chocolate.
The fight sequence (where Neo remarks about upgrades) was entertaining for the first minute or so , but then wasn't. The fight before the oracle was gratuitious. The big brawl was cool but went on way too long. The fight in the castle; the fight in the car; the fight on top of the trailer; the fight in the building; the fight in the hallway: Each one of them went on and on and on and didn't advance the plot at all.
But that's my opinion. Just don't go calling my differing of opinion a lack of understanding. I know what coconut tastes like; I've had it quite a few times; I still don't like it as much as chocolate.
My review:
Such an interesting premise completely and totally wasted on crap dialog, cheesy music, and overdone but usually not incredibly crisp action scenes. And if the dialog wasn't horrible itself it was rushed. I was laughing through the first half hour or so before I realized that this WASN'T a spoof. Seriously, Lawrence Fishburne up flexing his muscles giving the cheesiest crowd-rallying speech I've ever witnessed to the inhabitants of Zion, (about 2 or 3 of whom are over age 30, although one thing I think the film was good at was having a racially diverse cast). How can anyone be inspired by that? The acting all-around was terrible, (even for Keanu Reeves). Christ, it was worse than Star Wars Episode 1!
This isn't based on a "lack of understanding" of the movie. I thought it had a great plot, and it was a shame it was destroyed by its presentation, which was abysmal. And a great plot can't make up for shitty presentation; it may in fact increase disappointment because expectations were pretty high. I still may go and see "Revolutions", but this one's a big pile of poo.
Flame on.
Such an interesting premise completely and totally wasted on crap dialog, cheesy music, and overdone but usually not incredibly crisp action scenes. And if the dialog wasn't horrible itself it was rushed. I was laughing through the first half hour or so before I realized that this WASN'T a spoof. Seriously, Lawrence Fishburne up flexing his muscles giving the cheesiest crowd-rallying speech I've ever witnessed to the inhabitants of Zion, (about 2 or 3 of whom are over age 30, although one thing I think the film was good at was having a racially diverse cast). How can anyone be inspired by that? The acting all-around was terrible, (even for Keanu Reeves). Christ, it was worse than Star Wars Episode 1!
This isn't based on a "lack of understanding" of the movie. I thought it had a great plot, and it was a shame it was destroyed by its presentation, which was abysmal. And a great plot can't make up for shitty presentation; it may in fact increase disappointment because expectations were pretty high. I still may go and see "Revolutions", but this one's a big pile of poo.
Flame on.
Call me a completely cynical bastard but here's my "understanding" of the matrix:
Wachowski bro #1: We've got the tech to do some really great action scenes in films.
bro #2: I know, if we stick the plot inside a giant computer program then we can get people cheating the system and doing slowmo and amazing kung fu moves
#1: good idea, and we can have unlimited amounts of guns or anything else, they just 'load' them in.
#2: hmm but surely in a program nobody could die?
#1: hmm, how about we make it so that they die then it makes them beleive that they're dead in real life too..
#2: but then they could just dissconnect themselves if they're getting close to death?
#1: got a point there, i know, we'll just have it so they can only disconnect at certain points in the virtual world (-> landline phones)
#2: how about if AI has taken over the world and stuck everyone in this computer program?
#1: thats good and if we BS enough semi serious stuff into it and leave enough open ends about then people will have discussions on it trying to work out the philosophy behind the film.
#2: and of course have a semi open ending so that we can do some sequals if this is succesful.
matrix is a huge success and a bit later...
(btw I havent seen reloaded yet as uk is behind everyone else it seems but from what ive read....)
#1: we could make this into a trilogy, we should have left the ending fully open
#2: nah its ok we can make up something to get around that all we'd need to do is invent some more vague storylines, if we convolute the whole matrix idea enough then the discussions on it will be huge and people will be trying to work out what we decided to do to end it all, if we chuck in a few weird scenes too then even better.
[/cynical mode]
I do think that the matrix is a good film but its basically an action film with enough open ends and philosphical stuff to get those who want to, thinking about existance life and the universe.
Personally I've never seen the point in the latter part and films that rely only or heavily on that I find boring, if I want to think about life existance etc then I don't need to see a film and pay £5 to do it. I go to the cinema to be entertained and the matrix suceeded in this. Reloaded probably will too but im not sure yet whether it will be due to the action and effects or due to laughing at the contrived way they've managed to stick 5 more hours of plot on.
but here's my "understanding" of the matrix:Wachowski bro #1: We've got the tech to do some really great action scenes in films.
bro #2: I know, if we stick the plot inside a giant computer program then we can get people cheating the system and doing slowmo and amazing kung fu moves
#1: good idea, and we can have unlimited amounts of guns or anything else, they just 'load' them in.
#2: hmm but surely in a program nobody could die?
#1: hmm, how about we make it so that they die then it makes them beleive that they're dead in real life too..
#2: but then they could just dissconnect themselves if they're getting close to death?
#1: got a point there, i know, we'll just have it so they can only disconnect at certain points in the virtual world (-> landline phones)
#2: how about if AI has taken over the world and stuck everyone in this computer program?
#1: thats good and if we BS enough semi serious stuff into it and leave enough open ends about then people will have discussions on it trying to work out the philosophy behind the film.
#2: and of course have a semi open ending so that we can do some sequals if this is succesful.
matrix is a huge success and a bit later...
(btw I havent seen reloaded yet as uk is behind everyone else it seems but from what ive read....)
#1: we could make this into a trilogy, we should have left the ending fully open
#2: nah its ok we can make up something to get around that all we'd need to do is invent some more vague storylines, if we convolute the whole matrix idea enough then the discussions on it will be huge and people will be trying to work out what we decided to do to end it all, if we chuck in a few weird scenes too then even better.
[/cynical mode]
I do think that the matrix is a good film but its basically an action film with enough open ends and philosphical stuff to get those who want to, thinking about existance life and the universe.
Personally I've never seen the point in the latter part and films that rely only or heavily on that I find boring, if I want to think about life existance etc then I don't need to see a film and pay £5 to do it.
I go to the cinema to be entertained and the matrix suceeded in this. Reloaded probably will too but im not sure yet whether it will be due to the action and effects or due to laughing at the contrived way they've managed to stick 5 more hours of plot on. 
