Last of Us [PS4]

[Rotmm]

Maybe you should watch the whole thing. He was pressing them to see if they actually had a clue what they were talking about. They didn't.

I watched the whole thing on your recommendation and, sorry, but your conclusion is completely different to mine. All that I got from the video was a reinforcement in my opinion of the interviewer being a complete and utter tool.

From the very start Balestra, and then Wells, were cery clear on the stance that they believe for Move to work the game has to be designed around it. Wether or not Move controls have been patched in to other games doesn't change that fact (from their opinion) at all. But Tool Academy just spent 4 minutes telling the developers, the peoiple with the engine and the dev tools for their game, that they were wrong and, hey, look another game uses Move and I like it.

He completely ignored, of course, that the only thing that Infamous 2 and Uncharted 3 have in common is the 3rd person view, that ND's game is heavily motion captured, that there is a strong focus on blending animations, that the shooting and cover mechanics are completely different, that the platforming in Uncharted 3 bears no resemblence to the cllimbing in Infamous 2, that they are, in fact, completely fucking different games.

Forgive the rant, but I'm actually a little angry with you in that you encouraged me to watch that spazzock again, and indeed watch it to the end. What an arrogant, ignorant prick he is.

 

[patsu]

He completely ignored, of course, that the only thing that Infamous 2 and Uncharted 3 have in common is the 3rd person view, that ND's game is heavily motion captured, that there is a strong focus on blending animations, that the shooting and cover mechanics are completely different, that the platforming in Uncharted 3 bears no resemblence to the cllimbing in Infamous 2, that they are, in fact, completely fucking different games.

I think there are also a lot of similarities despite the differences.

U3 combat is more similar to i2 combat (mixed melee and shooting) compared to U2. If I stick to covers, I will probably die a lot more in U3. [EDIT: U3 has QTE during melee, but not in i2].

U3 and i2 platforming are both heavily assisted and "sticky". You jump between embedded grip points throughout the level. I think the main difference here is: U3 requires jumping between

Spoiler

trucks and horses

. i2 allows you to slide on cable, glide or even fly at high speed.

I don't know if blended animation will affect Move integration. Move has been used in Deadmund's Quest (on-rail), Heavy Rain (constrained, "lifelike" animation) and i2 (freeform, open world platforming).

 

[goonergaz]

I think the point is that IF ND were to make a game with Move controls they would design the game around it rather than just do a quick bodge (like with U1 where they obviously felt they had to have some for of SIXAXIS control in the game).

During the video I loved the way ND were lightly poking fun at the interviewer at the end - made me chuckle, however, I am a little sad that they won't even contemplate patching their games for move - I loved RE5 with the move controls - for me that worked well.

 

[_phil_]

TTP is right , Uncharted would be a great candidate for very good move control scheme.
ND just said " F*** the move we don't want that thing " a long time ago...

If they' d honestly wanted to reconsider doing move control , Hiring TTP would be a good idea.

 

[Cyan]

Then they may be on the same path...

The Last Of Us: “Monsters Aren’t The Focus”
Relationships the key.
http://www.thesixthaxis.com/2011/12/13/the-last-of-us-monsters-arent-the-focus/



http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-12-13-the-last-of-us-preview




I hope for Heavy Rain's gloomy realism and tough choices + Ico's play in character/enemy relationships + Resident Evil monsters + Uncharted visuals

EDIT:
Btw, you can't really experience the real Heavy Rain on YouTube. The effect will be different since you don't get to be Ethan himself. Someone else assumed his role in the gameplay video. I will always remember the scene where

Spoiler

I cut off my own pinky to try to learn where my son was

.

hahah, your pinky? I suppose you were using the move. Ufff, I am glad I played the game on youtube then.

Also playing games on youtube is good for tech-minded people. You should know it's an indispensable requirement to qualify in these forums. We all know the average forum participant in Beyond3D has a 3.000€ wage, has 20 centimeters of cock and a very deep technical knowledge, so they can discern AA and in-game tearing by watching a youtube video.

 

[patsu]

I think the point is that IF ND were to make a game with Move controls they would design the game around it rather than just do a quick bodge (like with U1 where they obviously felt they had to have some for of SIXAXIS control in the game).

During the video I loved the way ND were lightly poking fun at the interviewer at the end - made me chuckle, however, I am a little sad that they won't even contemplate patching their games for move - I loved RE5 with the move controls - for me that worked well.

In general, yes, adding Move as an afterthought usually disappoints. In isolated cases, it may be possible to add Move support in the middle of development. inFamous 2 is a good example. I don't know when the devs changed their mind. They may have decided to try out Move early enough in the dev cycle.

The key thing TTP wanted to verify was: Did ND think about Move integration in depth, or did they write it off due to other considerations. From their answers, it seems they took the latter route.

I wouldn't say they are wrong (They could be right), but it's unfortunate.

 

[patsu]

hahah, your pinky? I suppose you were using the move. Ufff, I am glad I played the game on youtube then.

[snip !]

I completed Heavy Rain in DS3 and replayed most of it in Move.

I prefer DS3 controls in Heavy Rain. The Move retrofit is good but I think it could work even better (better than DS3) if it was designed in early.

I hope David Cage's next game has improved Move support. e.g., Actions from the Sorcery looks natural and cool.


One of the greatest things about Heavy Rain is tough decisions. If you are not the one who screw up in the game, you won't feel the pain or guilt.

 

[Arwin]

I wrote a reply before but I guess it got lost while work distracted me. Anyway, you are jumping to conclusions. TTP / Waggle, who is a veteran journalist by the way having worked for Italian gaming magazines for a long time, does extensive research into how games implement Move, and puts his results in well created videos that he posts on his blog and youtube. He's quite an authority on the Move, and he's been privately in contact with the guys behind Move a few times as well as publicly to get some 'behind-the-scenes' information. All game designers who do work with the Move controller love and respect the guy. And I've also had the chance to have him as a guest here in my house, together with his brother, during his stay in Cologne for Gamescom.

I watched the whole thing on your recommendation and, sorry, but your conclusion is completely different to mine. All that I got from the video was a reinforcement in my opinion of the interviewer being a complete and utter tool.

From the very start Balestra, and then Wells, were cery clear on the stance that they believe for Move to work the game has to be designed around it. Wether or not Move controls have been patched in to other games doesn't change that fact (from their opinion) at all. But Tool Academy just spent 4 minutes telling the developers, the peoiple with the engine and the dev tools for their game, that they were wrong and, hey, look another game uses Move and I like it.

With the end result that Evan Wells suggested that perhaps they should in fact talk to the Suckerpunch guys. If they have a good relationship, which they've suggested before, Suckerpunch will appreciate getting recognition for their excellent work, and Naughty Dog will have improved their inter-studio relations. There is very little to lose in that respect.

He completely ignored, of course, that the only thing that Infamous 2 and Uncharted 3 have in common is the 3rd person view, that ND's game is heavily motion captured, that there is a strong focus on blending animations, that the shooting and cover mechanics are completely different, that the platforming in Uncharted 3 bears no resemblence to the cllimbing in Infamous 2, that they are, in fact, completely fucking different games.

They are different games, but they are third person shooters, and they have more in common than you think. Of course there are good reasons why ND didn't implement the Move controls, but as neither of the two initially managed to give any good reasons, TTP had every right to press them on the matter. The combination of Move and NavCon is even more than WiiM+ and Nunchuck capable of taking over nearly any dualshock duties and improve the experience.

Forgive the rant, but I'm actually a little angry with you in that you encouraged me to watch that spazzock again, and indeed watch it to the end. What an arrogant, ignorant prick he is.

Well you'll have to forgive me for thinking the same of you after this mail. You don't know what you are talking about, and anyone who doesn't know what they are talking about has a right to get called on it. Even if you're at the helm of one of the best development studios. But Evan Wells at least had the curtesy to step back and consider the possibility that perhaps they hadn't given it sufficient attention, and I admire him for it.

For me personally, Move + NavCon takes some of the best qualities of Mouse and Keyboard and Dual Analog, and blends them together. Sure, there are games out there that would be better with just two analog sticks, and there are games out there that are much better with two Move controllers, but there are also a surprising number of situations where the combination of NavCon (or a dualshock in just your left hand, which is what I'm using - call me cheap) and Move handily outperform dual analog. One of them is Killzone 3, and another is Infamous 2. Neither game is perfect with Move, but both are better. So while I respect that there will always be people who prefer dual analog regardless, Move deserves more attention than it is getting. At this point, it should be mandatory for at the very least first and third person shooters, imho.

 

[patsu]

Adding TTP's inFamous 2 Move analysis to show how Move works in i2:

 

[patsu]

TTP is right , Uncharted would be a great candidate for very good move control scheme.
ND just said " F*** the move we don't want that thing " a long time ago...

If they' d honestly wanted to reconsider doing move control , Hiring TTP would be a good idea.

I have been observing the Move crowd. It's very peculiar.

There is a small group of (very) hardcore players who prefer Move over DS3 in some games. They seem to know what they are talking about. TTP is one of them, and he could indeed advise the developers on Move design (from user and usability perspective).

Collectively, they helped to change the Move control schemes in Resistance 3. I hope Bioshock Infinite, U3, Sorcery, and other Move titles tap on this pool of talent.

I tried Move titles once in a while. It does seem like a split DS3 could be done with great results. There are signs here and there, but more R&D will help point us in the right direction.

 

[fearsomepirate]

but there are also a surprising number of situations where the combination of NavCon (or a dualshock in just your left hand, which is what I'm using - call me cheap) and Move handily outperform dual analog. One of them is Killzone 3, and another is Infamous 2. Neither game is perfect with Move, but both are better.

IMO, the Wii has already established that a pointer is superior than a thumbstick for aiming (although the Wii remote is a bit lacking in the button department), and since the Move is used the same way, there you go. Watching an experienced pointer user (Wii or Move) play an FPS is a lot like watching someone play with a mouse, with the same sort of fine control. They don't need any kind of sticky autoaim or anything. The problem with Move + Nav is the price. I think it should be the standard controller for the PS4, with the Dual Shock sold separately.

 

[Sigfried1977]

For me playing with a pointer device is just too uncomfortable. There may be slight advantages when it comes to aiming, but enemies in most contemporary titles aren't fast and agile enough for it to make a big difference. I mean enemies in Infamous 2 simply absorb a lot of "bullets", so when I'm using the DS3 I simply focus once on a single bad guy, and then I basically let go of the right stick while shredding him. Stun lock makes sure he can't escape while I'm killing him, so it's not like I even have to follow a moving target.

I played Festival of Blood for about an hour with the Move. Worked fine. Not really worth the hassle though. For me of course.

The Move may behave like a mouse, but unlike with a mouse or a controller, taking my hands off of it even for a short moment means losing my aim.

Games like Child of Eden or House of the Dead are of course a completely different story.

 

[Sigfried1977]

But in the Last of Us, they merely serve as the backdrop to tell ND's "love story".

I hope so. Just exactly what the creatures are in the first place is probably (hopefully) completely irrelevant. Might as well be dogs with rabies. Establishing them as a mortal threat should be enough.

The reason movies like 28 days and its fantastic follow-up work so well is not because there are a bunch of zombies. It's because they took the time to flesh out the people first and foremost. All the good zombies moves do. Zombies just don't make for particularly interesting antagonists.

 

[patsu]

For me playing with a pointer device is just too uncomfortable. There may be slight advantages when it comes to aiming, but enemies in most contemporary titles aren't fast and agile enough for it to make a big difference. I mean enemies in Infamous 2 simply absorb a lot of "bullets", so when I'm using the DS3 I simply focus once on a single bad guy, and then I basically let go of the right stick while shredding him. Stun lock makes sure he can't escape while I'm killing him, so it's not like I even have to follow a moving target.

I played Festival of Blood for about an hour with the Move. Worked fine. Not really worth the hassle though. For me of course.

The Move may behave like a mouse, but unlike with a mouse or a controller, taking my hands off of it even for a short moment means losing my aim.

Games like Child of Eden or House of the Dead are of course a completely different story.

I'm like you !

That's why I'm very curious about a split DS3 that can behave like Move. Sometimes, I prefer Move (e.g., aiming, cutting and other non-shooting actions); most of the time, DS3 works very well.

 

[patsu]

I hope so. Just exactly what the creatures are in the first place is probably (hopefully) completely irrelevant. Might as well be dogs with rabies. Establishing them as a mortal threat should be enough.

The reason movies like 28 days and its fantastic follow-up work so well is not because there are a bunch of zombies. It's because they took the time to flesh out the people first and foremost. All the good zombies moves do. Zombies just don't make for particularly interesting antagonists.

I agree.

At some level, an interesting enemy can also inject life into a stale formula. We probably expect the girl or the guy to be infected by fungus eventually. The question is what happens next ?

 

[patsu]

Directors Interview:

 

[Prophecy2k]

I wrote a reply before but I guess it got lost while work distracted me. Anyway, you are jumping to conclusions. TTP / Waggle, who is a veteran journalist by the way having worked for Italian gaming magazines for a long time, does extensive research into how games implement Move, and puts his results in well created videos that he posts on his blog and youtube. He's quite an authority on the Move, and he's been privately in contact with the guys behind Move a few times as well as publicly to get some 'behind-the-scenes' information. All game designers who do work with the Move controller love and respect the guy. And I've also had the chance to have him as a guest here in my house, together with his brother, during his stay in Cologne for Gamescom.



With the end result that Evan Wells suggested that perhaps they should in fact talk to the Suckerpunch guys. If they have a good relationship, which they've suggested before, Suckerpunch will appreciate getting recognition for their excellent work, and Naughty Dog will have improved their inter-studio relations. There is very little to lose in that respect.



They are different games, but they are third person shooters, and they have more in common than you think. Of course there are good reasons why ND didn't implement the Move controls, but as neither of the two initially managed to give any good reasons, TTP had every right to press them on the matter. The combination of Move and NavCon is even more than WiiM+ and Nunchuck capable of taking over nearly any dualshock duties and improve the experience.



Well you'll have to forgive me for thinking the same of you after this mail. You don't know what you are talking about, and anyone who doesn't know what they are talking about has a right to get called on it. Even if you're at the helm of one of the best development studios. But Evan Wells at least had the curtesy to step back and consider the possibility that perhaps they hadn't given it sufficient attention, and I admire him for it.

For me personally, Move + NavCon takes some of the best qualities of Mouse and Keyboard and Dual Analog, and blends them together. Sure, there are games out there that would be better with just two analog sticks, and there are games out there that are much better with two Move controllers, but there are also a surprising number of situations where the combination of NavCon (or a dualshock in just your left hand, which is what I'm using - call me cheap) and Move handily outperform dual analog. One of them is Killzone 3, and another is Infamous 2. Neither game is perfect with Move, but both are better. So while I respect that there will always be people who prefer dual analog regardless, Move deserves more attention than it is getting. At this point, it should be mandatory for at the very least first and third person shooters, imho.

I agree with you wholeheartedlyArwin regarding MOVE. I love using the damned thing in games... for me it's the level of control that just doesn't exist with the DS3. I think Sony should mandate Move controls in all shooters from it's first party studios. At the end of the day they want people to buy the device (and the device is legitimately solid enough to actually add to game rather than take away).

The way MS seems to be pushing some kind of kinect functionality in games is something i do admire. Whilst at the same time i think that in terms of adding more meaningful options that enhance existing games in development, MOVE offers far more to a traditionally designed game (i.e. game designed for dual analogue control) than something like Kinect does.

This is why i don't subscribe to the view that a game designed around MOVE is the "only" way the functionality of the device can be best exploited. As Move is far more akin to the flexibility and versitility of a traditional analogue controller for a wider range of game types and genres than something like kinect, touchscreens or a guitar hero peripheral. Move just works for a wider range of games, be it games with move controls patched in or games designed with the the controls in mind from the outset.

Every game that i have played that has had Move controls patched in at a later time have been better played with Move for me. Even InFamous 2 that gets louded for it's fantastic implementation, the original game was designed and released for dual analogues, and yet the game plays infinitely better with MOVE.

IMHO uncharted 1, 2 and 3 would have all benefitted from the option for gamers to play them with the Move, provided the control implementation was as solidly done as InFamous 2 and KZ3. In the end all it takes is a developer that understands the control scheme and is willing to put the effort in to tune the controls till they're perfect. The game itself can be designed as normal for dual analogue control, and can still have solid Move support. Hence why, despite respecting Naughty Dog a great deal as probably my fav devs in the industry, I'm disappointed that they refuse to at least add the option for Move play. It's not as if not getting the Move controls perfect would sully the entire game. Other games liek Socom, Resistance 3 etc have Move controls that are not perfect, yet at the same time those games are still infinitely more enjoyable games with Move than DS3. It's like, ND will waste time on implementing 3D support in U3 (which isn't itself perfect), to appease the electronics side of Sony, when a much smaller minority of gamers even own or care about 3D, yet they refuse to support a peripheral that would add so much more to the actual gameplay of their games. They're backing the wrong horse imho (i.e. 3D over Move), and they should fix that.

 

[ban25]

Re: Move. I remember talking to Richard Marks at a GDC party and then checking out the floor demo and being impressed. But when I played SOCOM the next year at E3, I was underwhelmed and haven't touched it since.

 

[patsu]

Was it before the Socom 4 beta ? TTP highlighted a few issues here:
http://www.iwaggle3d.com/2011/04/video-iwatch-socom-4-multiplayer-beta.html

Socom 4 also has 2 separate Move config/implementations, Sharpshooter and plain Move:
http://www.iwaggle3d.com/2011/04/video-iwatch-how-socom-4-could-control.html

I remember Killzone 3 is the only/first Move FPS implementation that surprised this group of people. After that, they wanted other shooters to adopt a similar scheme.

 

[Mr. Domino]

Some more behind te scenes stuff: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdU-SxUgBKw&hd=1
Producers interview: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQNgK8iz5cQ&hd=1