John Carmack interview talks PS3 & X360

[TrungGap]

The comment wasn't to "discredit". It was context.

Nevertheless, it is still a true statement. It is a relevant statement.

You're right...discredit isn't the right term. How relevant his comments are is still up for debate. I guess, I'm arguing that because of his background of programming for the PC when CGA/EGA/VGA was all you got to work with to today's PC with everything abstracted, his comments are a reflection of what lies inthe future. And who else would know about about game development with threading than JC.

If it was the PS2, then I would agree with you that...a lot of his comments wouldn't apply, because that was the only way you could extract the power from it. The PS3 and 360 have so much power, that you wouldn't want to waste your development time on doing everything to the metal. It's sort like you won't want to waste so much time to write the game entirely in asm, considering that most high-level language compilers are doing a very good job at turning out optimized code.

 

[jpr27]

Got this off of a website (not sure if Im able to list name of website let me know if I can and Ill list. If this was against the rules I appologize and will remove)

10/18/05

"Elaborating on past comments he has made regarding his preference towards Microsoft's next-gen console, id Software's John Carmack made several comments on G4 last night regarding Xbox 360. His relevant comments have been transcribed by various Internet Web Sites.

Bluntly, Carmack says, "Xbox 360 has far and away the best development tools." He qualifies that in terms of its impact on games, saying that "when you look at these development cycles that stretch over years and years, being 20% easier to develop on is much more important than being 20% more powerful." He notes that the PS3 is "probably marginally more powerful" than the Xbox 360, "but that's not really the best way to look at things."

Despite the fact that both the PS3 and the Xbox 360 have their pros and cons, Carmack notes, "I make fundamental decisions based on development tools and depth of documentation, which Microsoft has been superior on." This is a sentiment that has been echoed by various tradionally PC-oriented game developers in recent months when questioned as to their opinions on Xbox 360 vs. PS3.

The excerpts are from a G4 segment entitled "A Sense of Doom," which featured the four primary owners of id. For those interested, it airs again on October 22 at 5:30pm PST, October 23 at 1:00pm PST, and October 24 at 10am PST."

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Got this off of a website (not sure if Im able to list name of website let me know if I can and Ill list. If this was against the rules I appologize and will remove)

Quite the contrary, you SHOULD link directly to the source. If quoting another site, quote only part, not all, and link to the site so people go visit them to read the full article.

 

[-tkf-]

Doesn't id have a history of supporting the Console that loses the "war" ?

Jaguar, Saturn, DC?

 

[Richard]

I thought stuff like hardware tesselation, MEMEXPORT, unified shaders and EDRAM where all things offer alot of extra power/flexibility over a traditional PC GPU, yet dev's will have to master these techniques as time goes on.

Snip

I was only replying to your "learning curve" premise, not fulfilling the hardware's potential. Re: that, if you assume that the RSX is a modified G70 then yes, I think it would be plausible to assume the Xenon would take longer to display all its quality compared to the RSX.

 

[Richard]

Doesn't id have a history of supporting the Console that loses the "war" ?

Jaguar, Saturn, DC?

id has released games for the following platforms:

Amiga
PC
Sega Genesis/Megadrive
Sega 32x
Sega Saturn
Sega Dreamcast
Sony Playstation
Sony Playstation2
Microsoft Xbox
Atari Jaguar
Nintendo SNES
Nintendo Gameboy Advance
Nintendo Gameboy Colour
Nintendo N64

 

[Rys]

Games published based on id game IP maybe, but I don't think id actively developed for them all, did they?

 

[Richard]

Games published based on id game IP maybe, but I don't think id actively developed for them all, did they?

I don't know, probably not all as I don't see JC nor Mike Abrash spending time on the Gameboy.

I know John did act as technical consultant on the xbox version of D3 and he did dug in on the Jaguar version of DOOM (basically, it was running far too slow so he had to help out) and he also worked on the SNES version of Wolf3D, etc.

 

[Powderkeg]

I don't know, probably not all as I don't see JC nor Mike Abrash spending time on the Gameboy.

I know John did act as technical consultant on the xbox version of D3 and he did dug in on the Jaguar version of DOOM (basically, it was running far too slow so he had to help out) and he also worked on the SNES version of Wolf3D, etc.

He's given technical assistance, but id Software has never actually produced a console game. They don't have the staff for it.

 

[pipo]

I'm pretty certain he spend a lot of time on JagDoom...

 

[Powderkeg]

He, is one man, and not all of id Software.

 

[Richard]

He's given technical assistance, but id Software has never actually produced a console game. They don't have the staff for it.

Are you agreeing with me? I can't tell.

 

[scatteh316]

For example, doesn't the MEMEXPORT capabilities of Xenos enable it to *possibly* perform physics calculations in a more feasable way than typical PC GPU's?

Won't the unified shaders allow dev's to break be more flexible in their game engines, not having to rely on hardwired shaders(i.e. 20% vertex 80% pixel shading)

Isn't the hardware tesselator something that will take Dev's a while to really master/utilize?

I think we'll see even more.. neve seen before things not from 360, but from the Cell + RSX relationship.

What ever 360 can do with its EDRAM ( bar "free" FSAA ) can be done on Cell, and then some.

 

[scooby_dooby]

CELL can assist the RXS to implement effects tue, but Xenos may already be able to do the same effects on it's own.

That will then limit power availablefor CELL to act as a CPU, running AI, animations etc etc, its all about trade-offs, the fact CELL might have to step in to help RSX isn't exactly a win IMO.

Then again, if RSX proves to be on par with Xenos, maybe the extra GFX capabilities of CELL will add that extra little bit that sets PS3 games apart from X360. On the other hand, if RSX proves to be less capable than Xenos, then the CELL will be used to compensate for a less powerful GPU, hindering it's ability to act as a CPU relative to the XeCPU.

 

[randycat99]

It's got power to spare- power that is there to be used, so it's a moot point.

 

[silhouette]

id has released games for the following platforms:

Amiga
PC
Sega Genesis/Megadrive
Sega 32x
Sega Saturn
Sega Dreamcast
Sony Playstation
Sony Playstation2
Microsoft Xbox
Atari Jaguar
Nintendo SNES
Nintendo Gameboy Advance
Nintendo Gameboy Colour
Nintendo N64

Not for Amiga... I am sure of that.. Even Doom comes much later to Amiga than most of the machines listed there

 

[Reverend]

For John's comments to be relevant in the Console industry, he/id has got to have a proven and successful gameplay/technological history (in the Console industry, again).

Hasn't happened. Not that surprising to see that all the console folks started quoting whatever John has to say about his plans for the new consoles after we all know the graphics for the next consoles are basically made by PC IHVs.

John is learning where consoles are concerned (and he never would be if it wasn't for the fact that NV and ATI are involved in a major way in those 2 consoles). Until he is a Kojima, stop making headlines about what he has to say about anything to do with consoles.

Track records in the console industry overrides first-time-and-however-innovative technological prowess one may have.

This is the console forum, not the PC forum. And we're talking about John.

 

[wazoo]

The only thing we know for sure about John is its modesty and honesty.

I've not read all the thread, but developping on X360 makes sense for him, considering his past, his PC experience and the small team he has. Another company with differents priorities could have different views.

 

[SynapticSignal]

The only thing we know for sure about John is its modesty and honesty.

I've not read all the thread, but developping on X360 makes sense for him, considering his past, his PC experience and the small team he has.

why?

Another company with differents priorities could have different views.

again, why?

 

[wazoo]

because the tools and docs are most likely similar to what he used before.