Intel ARC GPUs, Xe Architecture for dGPUs [2018-2022]

[Lurkmass]

Benchmarks should reflect current performance, not hypothetical future performance ...

What's going on in the minds of consumers isn't them wondering how competing products will perform against each other on unreleased software. They make these purchasing decisions based on current performance available now. Despite Intel's CPU competitor having more tolerable multi-core performance in the past, any potential customers passed over them because their current performance at that time just wasn't satisfactory. Nvidia's competitor very clearly had a more forward looking graphics architecture as we can see in benchmarks released later on but it meant absolutely nothing to consumers because they were more than competitive during that timeframe in the past ...

If Intel and the others here think that consumers will somehow accept less now for "maybe" a better future then they're obviously in over their own heads. Performing acceptably in half of the set of benchmarks and appallingly in the other half is not enough when either of their competitors are consistently coming out ahead. No one can exactly say for sure how the future will turn out so considering unreleased future software is irrelevant in reviews because there's no way they can measure/verify the end result. "Promising" that customers will end up in a better outcome is largely empty when we consider the life cycles behind these products so what they'll expect is they can see now ...

Frankly, Intel can design their products as much as they want it to stand the test of time which may or may not turn out to be the case but they can't expect compassion/sympathy from consumers if they're constantly losing in benchmarks against a competitor who isn't trying so hard to predict the future that isn't set in stone when they release appropriate products for the appropriate timeframe ...

 

[orangpelupa]

Eh, somewhat. Really best for earlier games that have ghosting issues but I've played around with several versions and never really seen one have a significant impact outside of that.

to my eyes 2.4.6 significantly made "ultra performance" looks sharp enough, and the pixel crawls (a wee bit) less obvious. While 2.4.12 made some games look really bad and even broken.

not sure how it compares to XeSS tho.

but the widely different image quality that DLSS versions have, could make comparison with XeSS confusing. Even if the reviewer mentions which dlss version they use.

 

[CarstenS]

Did anyone bother yet to do some low-level throughput testing with their ARC-GPUs? Did not find anything.

 

[DavidGraham]

F1 2021 was tested with RT Medium ON so the whole debate is a moot. Reviewer did run RT test and promised to revisit this topic with more tests done in the future.

Thanks for the tip, still I think this is very low effort on his part, considering he had 7 other RT games tested with RT disabled.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1577940524031479808

 

[PSman1700]

I think he means resistance in select forums and maybe one YT channel?

 

[Phantom88]

No, there's a lot of resistance towards ray tracing, for god knows what inane reason everywhere. It it because of the unnatural hatred you see on ocassion towards nvidia ? Because we all need to buy new hardware to enjoy it ? Is it because AMD is not good at it ? And if you spend 5 minutes on r/amd, thats about the worst fandom in recent history, on par with playstation and nintendo ones.

We had a ton of shifts like the RT one over the decades and i've never witnessed the stuff you see regarding RT.

 

[PSman1700]

Is it because AMD is not good at it ?

Not directly no, i dont thinkso atleast. It aint pc gamers because that'd be weird considering most are (80%?) using nv hardware. That leaves the consoles who sport AMD hardware, it'd be indirectly. However i fail to see why they'd even care at all since thats a different market.
I still think its only forums and some select YT channels representing those, the average joe simply wouldnt care at all.

And if you spend 5 minutes on r/amd, thats about the worst fandom in recent history, on par with playstation and nintendo ones.

Im not going to spend 1 second there let alone 5 minutes.

AMD will catch up to intel/nv anyway, if not with RDNA3 then with RDNA4. There are rumors for dedicated cores to ML/AI in rdna3, RT wont be long ways from there either. When that happens everyone will hopefully calm down on that (and find something else to 'discuss')

Honestly this is only good, their actually helping advancing things by marketing for free, even if its a small group, their vocal and thats always good to keep highlighting technology.

 

[Kaotik]

No, there's a lot of resistance towards ray tracing, for god knows what inane reason everywhere. It it because of the unnatural hatred you see on ocassion towards nvidia ? Because we all need to buy new hardware to enjoy it ? Is it because AMD is not good at it ? And if you spend 5 minutes on r/amd, thats about the worst fandom in recent history, on par with playstation and nintendo ones.

We had a ton of shifts like the RT one over the decades and i've never witnessed the stuff you see regarding RT.

What insane reason? It's really simple and not insane at all: Some people don't see the cost being worth the benefit. It will get to the point where benefits are worth the cost for everyone probably, but at this time it's not there for everyone.

 

[Phantom88]

What insane reason? It's really simple and not insane at all: Some people don't see the cost being worth the benefit.

A metric ton of reactions towards ray tracing are not normal at all. Im not even talking about this forum, i've seen them in a lot of places. Just this visceral, almost personal hatred for it. That it's all dumb reflections, that it's stupid, that developers are purposely making games shinny now, that devs are not "optimizing" their games now because there's dlss and so on.

We had new graphical techniques since forever. DX 7, 8, 9 and so on. We always had games locked to one of them and not accesible to an older one. But there was never reactions like ray tracing has. It was excitement. A new feature that didnt exist until now.

People weren't watching this \/ in 2003 and say "dumb, forced reflections". They wanted a new gpu to savour that sweet new eye candy

 

[DavidGraham]

Is it because AMD is not good at it ? And if you spend 5 minutes on r/amd, thats about the worst fandom in recent history, on par with playstation and nintendo ones.

Yeah, it's that reason alone, also social media gives voice to the less educated masses, amateur reviewers and generally less quality and well informed opinions among amateur gamers, those feed each other on social media polls and posts and create a feedback loop of RT antagonism. Remember Social Media wasn't a major presence decades ago. They certainly have their effect today.

 

[Svensk Viking]

What insane reason? It's really simple and not insane at all: Some people don't see the cost being worth the benefit. It will get to the point where benefits are worth the cost for everyone probably, but at this time it's not there for everyone.

DX10 and tessellation also got long living reputations of just being performance hogs for none to minimal visual gain. I don't see raytracing sticking out as the only technique having got that reputation.
For CPUs, it lived on for years that hyperthreading was useless for gaming systems and that money was better spent on a higher tier GPU instead.

The one thing I would like studios doing is publishing statistics of how many of the RT capable systems having ended up running their games with it on or off. One thing that surprised me with the consoles, is that, IMO many users on forums say they opt for the performance mode rather than the quality mode.

 

[Kaotik]

Yeah, it's that reason alone, also social media gives voice to the less educated masses, amateur reviewers and generally less quality and well informed opinions among amateur gamers, those feed each other on social media polls and posts and create a feedback loop of RT antagonism. Remember Social Media wasn't a major presence decades ago. They certainly have their effect today.

This must be the most elitist post I've ever seen on this forum.

 

[DegustatoR]

DX10 and tessellation also got long living reputations of just being performance hogs for none to minimal visual gain. I don't see raytracing sticking out as the only technique having got that reputation.
For CPUs, it lived on for years that hyperthreading was useless for gaming systems and that money was better spent on a higher tier GPU instead.

The one thing I would like studios doing is publishing statistics of how many of the RT capable systems having ended up running their games with it on or off. One thing that surprised me with the consoles, is that, IMO many users on forums say they opt for the performance mode rather than the quality mode.

DX10 was mostly useless though so that was at least actually based on facts instead of self-replicating fiction.

We can argue about tessellation (it wasn't a performance hog on h/w which wasn't bad at running it and it did provide a solid visual gain) but do we really need to do this on raytracing? Like really?

 

[davis.anthony]

No, there's a lot of resistance towards ray tracing, for god knows what inane reason everywhere.

If you look on Twitter to see what people are actually saying it's nothing to do with Nvidia nor is it an insane reason.

People just don't think the visual difference justifies the massive performance drop.

It is and can be that simple of an explanation.

 

[DegustatoR]

If you look on Twitter to see what people are saying it's nothing to do with Nvidia nor is it an insane reason.

People just don't think the visual difference justifies the massive performance drop.

Then they can not use it? Or they can give examples of better visual gains with less performance impact than those of RT? (Ultra settings maybe? Lol) What am I missing?

 

[Svensk Viking]

DX10 was mostly useless though so that was at least actually based on facts instead of self-replicating fiction.

We can argue about tessellation (it wasn't a performance hog on h/w which wasn't bad at running it and it did provide a solid visual gain) but do we really need to do this on raytracing? Like really?

Do we? Apparently we do, otherwise there wouldn't be this constant argument almost each time tests that don't include raytracing are published. One way to lower the risk of having it is by users not going off acting as the Authority stating that the views of the author or his followers are wrong.
PC gaming has always been a trade-off between performance and visuals. It has always been subjective to whether people prefer the better performing image X or the worse performing image Y. Raytracing is not special in that regard.

 

[Svensk Viking]

This must be the most elitist post I've ever seen on this forum.

Social media has also obviously given voice to self proclaimed Authorities and experts too, so the tone ought to be more positive

 

[DegustatoR]

Do we? Apparently we do, otherwise there wouldn't be this constant argument almost each time tests that don't include raytracing are published. One way to lower the risk of having it is by users not going off acting as the Authority stating that the views of the author or his followers are wrong.
PC gaming has always been a trade-off between performance and visuals. It has always been subjective to whether people prefer the better performing image X or the worse performing image Y. Raytracing is not special in that regard.

Raytracing is special in this regard because it was the ultimate goal in the world of 3D graphics, for a reason, which is there are no other ways of getting the same quality with a higher performance.

The fact that some people think that Wolf3D looks fine in 2022 doesn't mean anything for the development of real time 3D graphics. And yes, no one should even listen to them.

 

[techuse]

It has nothing to do with AMD/Nvidia and everything to do with the current performance to visual gain ratio. If RT launched with games looking like the Matrix demo there would be no backlash.

 

[PSman1700]

It has nothing to do with AMD/Nvidia and everything to do with the current performance to visual gain ratio. If RT launched with games looking like the Matrix demo there would be no backlash.

That 30fps though. And thats not even a regular game but a tech demo. That demo tanks performance which people would complain about preffering 60fps with less fidelity.