Immersion CEO: Begging Sony To Add Rumble

[archie4oz]

Also, you say "Immersion shot themselves in the foot." How so? Sony is unwilling to pay them for their intellectual property, which is why Immersion sued them in the first place.

Actually Sony is currently paying Immersion quarterly royalties (by court order), although it's only 1/4 of what Immersion typically asks for. Sony was unwilling to pay Immersion because Sony didn't deem that the intellectual property was exclusive to Immersion.

If Sony didn't want to pay them for the PS2, why would Sony be willing to pay them for the PS3? If they hadn't sued Sony, Sony would have continue to use the same tech for free and Immersion would have still gotten nothing. I just don't see how they shot themselves in the foot.

Well for starters Immersion could've approached Sony in 1997 or 1998 when Sony started shipping controllers with rumble instead of 2001. Granted Immersion didn't own the IP then (it was filed by Virtual Technologies (y'all remember the Cyber Glove right?)). In fact the initial claim by Virtual Technologies was discarded and re-filed in 1998 (granted 2000) after Sony's Dual Analog Pad launched (although the US version *did* lack vibration unlike the Japanese model), as well as the Dual Shock's Japan launch (the filing predates the US Dual Shock launch by a month). In either case apparently Virtual Technologies didn't pursue litigation against Sony or Nintendo, so it does lead one to question the validity of Immersion's claims.

....or not since Nintendo doesn't infringe on their patent. Better luck next time.

Yes they do, Immersion just hasn't bothered to pursue litigation yet. In fact Immersion even claimed they hadn't bothered to investigate Nintendo's implementation at the time of the filing of the lawsuit.

Couldn't Sony just make their own rumble technology down the line, instead of dealing with Immersion?

They did, and got sued.

I believe the primary difference in implementation is that Nintendo only uses one motor, whereas immersion covers 2 (or possibly more) which allows for additional sensations.

Immersion's patent covers a device with 1 or more vibrotactile motors (e.g. that covers the N64 rumble pack).

Also, Immersion gave Sony and MS SEVERAL chances to avoid a lawsuit. They pretty much told Immersion to stuff it. However, when MS saw this wasn't going to go down good, they took their oportunity to cure. Sony continued to say stuff it. In fact, even after losing over and over in court, Sony has not done what's been ordered by the courts, PAY! So, who's the bad guy here?

Immersion may have given them several chances, but it didn't have much of a case to stand on to demand license fees until it's continuation of Virtual Technologies patents were granted. In fact if anything I sorta feel bad for MS since they were already in a licensing agreement with Immersion years before the Xbox (for stuff like DirectInput's feedback support) and were probably a bit surprised that Immersion came knocking at the door to demand more money after their acquisition of Virtual Technologies.

Also as I stated before, Sony *is* currently paying licensing fees, they just haven't payed the awarded damages because the case is still on appeal.

As far as I know the wiimote has it so why couldn't the PS3 controller have it?

Well for one, we don't know how accurate the wiimote is when it's vibrating. It's tracking could simply go to shit when it's vibrating, but maybe Nintendo found that acceptable. We don't know if it can concurrently track and vibrate at the same time or if it's a one or the other feature (none of the demos I played at E3 for example used vibration). Also Nintendo does use an external tracker to assist the wiimote, so that could've been Nintendo's solution.

If Immersion hadn't protected their patent and had let Sony get away with PS2, Sony would have some legal precedent for their own use of the technology and for Immersion not actively executing ownership.

Likewise if MS hadn't settled with Immersion, there'd still be no legal precident to base the current case decision with Sony. The more interesting question is is MS going to float Immersion along while the appeal process goes on? The MS settlement was a big boone to Immersion since they were losing money left and right and it gave them the capital to pursue the case against Sony. Appeals can drag on, and if Immersion keeps bleeding money, how long before they start taking a closer look at Nintendo?

 

[Arwin]

A few points here. Regarding the wiimote, the price of the wiimote, last time I checked, is 50% higher than that of the sixaxis. Also, Immersion is going to look at the wiimote once it is released, to investigate whether it infringes on their patents. They haven't done so yet now, so it may still happen.

Finally, Immersion sued maybe only three companies. I think that Sony was very unpleasantly surprised with both the timing of the lawsuit as the demands. That doesn't absolve them in a legal sense at all, and they probably should have done their homework better. But the combination of making the controller more expensive and not wanting to be dependent on Immersion may have been sufficient.

As for gamers losing out, well, maybe. Lots of 360 gamers turn off rumble to spare their wireless battery, and I don't know. Rumble has always felt very gimmicky to me, and while some games made great use of it nonetheless and I also appreciate the improvements made in the 360 version, I certainly find the sixaxis feature a lot more interesting. The rumble feedback can easily be replaced with visual and sound effects (case in point, in GT4 the sound your tires make when they hit rumble strips provides excellent feedback there).

The sixaxis really adds something and I think it's a great way to increase control. We haven't seen so much examples of its use yet because it's a relatively new feature to developers and the final decision to include it was made rather late - apparently it was something requested by Factor 5 very early on, including the accellerometers, but it wasn't finally decided until very late in the day and then it took a while for the SDK update that supports it to be released.

But it's out there now, and I think we'll see support and even unique games pop up plenty soon. I think that will change perspective on the decision for most people a fair bit.

 

[poopypoo]

As primarily a PC gamer, I don't feel a strong attachment to rumble. However, I do smell something fishy -- and I wouldn't put it at all past Sony to try anything and everything to get out of this judgment. Also, rumble isn't bad -- racing games in particular really benefit from not having to look around for things like the edge of the track, high revs, getting bumped, etc. In a lot of games I could live without it, but it's ironic that everyone else has rumble and isn't charging $600 or whatever for their console.

 

[Corwin_B]

A few points here. Regarding the wiimote, the price of the wiimote, last time I checked, is 50% higher than that of the sixaxis.

Actually, the price of the Wiimote is lower than the price of the Sixaxis, since the Wiimote is a stand-alone controller. You don't have to have a nunchuk attachment for each Wiimote.

Also, we don't have an US price for the Sixaxis, and the JP pricing is : Y3800 for the Wiimote, Y1800 for the nunchuk, Y5000 for the Sixaxis. Last time I checked, 600 didn't make 50% of 5000...

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Sixaxis is a dumb name. Motion works in three perpendicular axes, 2 DOF for each. The controller should be identified by the number of analogue DOF's it provides for a given input. I make that six on the motion detection, two on the thumbsticks, one on the face buttons (still progressive?), and two on the L2/R2 triggers. The PS3 controller should be called 'Elevendof'. There could be an argument that if you're controlling the thumbsticks, you can't be pressing a face button, which would make it the 'Tendof' controller, but I quite often curl my right index finger over to use the triangle button, so technically 'elevendof' is a more appropriate name.

Or instead, we come up with a better sounding name that doesn't try to describe the device!

 

[Arwin]

Actually, the price of the Wiimote is lower than the price of the Sixaxis, since the Wiimote is a stand-alone controller. You don't have to have a nunchuk attachment for each Wiimote.

Ok, fair enough you have a point there.

Also, we don't have an US price for the Sixaxis, and the JP pricing is : Y3800 for the Wiimote, Y1800 for the nunchuk, Y5000 for the Sixaxis. Last time I checked, 600 didn't make 50% of 5000...

I didn't know those were the Japanese prices for the wiimote and nunchuck. I think it was the 1up show that mentioned the total price for the wiimote + nunchuck as 60$. If this means that the difference between the two will be $10 (either 40-50, or 50-60), then fair enough, you are right, and you are certainly right at this point of time in Japan. So my apologies.

As for the other two consoles having rumble and that being something fishy, well, the 360's controller don't have motion sensing so that comparison doesn't make sense, and the wii-mote has a much reduced rumble compared to what was in the dualshock.

Considering that the final decision to go for the sixaxis came quite late in the day, and considering that the first controllers and technology to have rumble and accellerometers in one controller also came fairly late, then it may also just have taken too long to get the high-precision sixaxis functionality and rumble into one working package, software and water-proof licence agreements included. The SDK for the sixaxis already came to most developers very last minute.

The lawyers alone might have made it too expensive.

Finally, while technically you are correct that you can buy the wiimote without the nunchuck, I don't think it's a wholly fair comparison without the nunchuck, though then again the wiimote also has a small speaker. On the other hand, the sixaxis doesn't require that sensor bar, that I'm not too enthusiastic about.

Well, anyway, I stand corrected.

 

[Arwin]

Or instead, we come up with a better sounding name that doesn't try to describe the device!

I think in the context of its predecessor (dualshock), it seems a very natural name for it, highlighting it's most prominent new feature. It is a nice palindrome too, and it sounds quite decent when spoken. I like it.

 

[London Geezer]

Sixaxis is a dumb name.

What really is dumb is actually giving a name to a bloody controller. It's a PS3 controller. That's that. When you play with mates, you don't go "oi oi pass me the SixAxis (or Dualshock or whatever else) mate or i'll kick your ass"... You say "would you be so kind to please pass me the Playstation3 controller if that is not too much trouble?".

Naming processors is silly enough - though understandable. Naming controllers is just silly. It's as if Panasonic released a new Plasma screen and gave a name to the remote control... Something like "Ectoplasmatic" or "Infrared-alert"... Silliness. It's a remote, that's that.

 

[Corwin_B]

Finally, while technically you are correct that you can buy the wiimote without the nunchuck, I don't think it's a wholly fair comparison without the nunchuck, though then again the wiimote also has a small speaker.

For many multiplayers games (including Wii Play, Wario Ware, ExciteTruck...), the Wiimote will be all that is required. Since the basic pack includes a nunchuk, the price is only a matter for extra controllers. Myself, I plan to buy Wii Play (for the bundled Wiimote) and an extra nunchuk at launch, and 2 extra Wiimotes for 4 player games later. In all likelihood, Mario Kart Wii (when it arrives) won't require the nunchuk either, but rather control like ExciteTruck.

On the other hand, the sixaxis doesn't require that sensor bar, that I'm not too enthusiastic about.

The Wii sensor bar is not required for the kind of games that the Sixaxis will work with, though : it's only there for precision pointing. It will be used by Trauma Center and Red Steel, but not by Excite Truck. The accelerometers in the Wiimote and nunchuk work like the ones in the Sixaxis, without the sensor bar.

Also, the sensor bar is included with the console, you only need one (not one per Wiimote).

I think the main source of cost in the Sixaxis is the (hopefully non-exploding) rechargeable battery. We don't know if Nintendo will offer one, and MS charges a lot for those.

 

[Firewarrior]

If sony Immersion were smart enough to think of the future instead of suing Sony they could have come with a agreement but now Sony is pissed of about the $90 Million case they won

Wouldn't you?

I know some people love rumble but I wouldn't mind to be honest

I use a wireless controller for my PS2 and mostly turn of the vibration due to battery sucking so I'm used to no vibration

And I dont want to think of what people could use the vibration for?

 

[London Geezer]

And I dont want to think of what people could use the vibration for?

Didn't you read the Terms and Conditions? Only I can make sexual jokes in this forum.

 

[Firewarrior]

Didn't you read the Terms and Conditions? Only I can make sexual jokes in this forum.

Hmm it might not have been a sexual joke

dirty mind!

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Naming processors is silly enough - though understandable. Naming controllers is just silly.

If we're going to talk about it, a shorthand is better than writing and reading 'PlayStation 3 controller'. DS3 is probably the most sensible shorthand - a progression from DS...DS2...DS3, plus it's able to incorporate 'Dual Shock + 3 axes of motion'. Sixaxis looks good on paper, but is a mouthfull. Lots of long consonants. Sounds like one of Dr. Seuss's rejects. 'Behold the peculiar Zick-Zass-Ziss'

I motion the forum bans the term Sixaxis (on pain of death. Perhaps something could be arranged with Sony's ninjas?) on grounds of being both technically inaccurate (thus casting a woeful shadow on the technical competancy of the forum and bringing disrepute on us all) and a mouthful (see Dr. Seuss above). And spelt incorrectly (should be sixaxes, not sixaxis). And it sounds like a disease (doctor says I've got an infection of sixaxis ). Instead 'DS3' should be imposed as the ideal (and only allowed) shorthand to reference the PS3's controller.

 

[Corwin_B]

If we're going to talk about it, a shorthand is better than writing and reading 'PlayStation 3 controller'. DS3 is probably the most sensible shorthand - a progression from DS...DS2...DS3, plus it's able to incorporate 'Dual Shock + 3 axes of motion'.

Dual Shake 3 ?

 

[London Geezer]

SixAsses?


SexAssist?

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Dual Shake 3 ?

Actually that's a point. DS3 couldn't mean Dual Shock 3 as the shocks have gone. But it could be Dual Shake or Dual Stick. Fundamentally the explanation isn't that important as it'd only be used as a reference.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

SixAsses?
SexAssist?

Foxes in Sockses throw up in Sick-Sackes

 

[rabidrabbit]

Is there an official name for the Wii controller.
Are "Wiimote" and "Nunsucku" the names Nintendo will be using in the controller retail packages?

 

[Firewarrior]

SixAsses?


SexAssist?

If it was called don't expect a lot of kids to get a PS3

 

[Arwin]

For a shorthand, we could use maybe "6X=" or "6X"? Although that does look rather 1337.

I mean, as others suggest, most of the time I would use the word controller, but there are several instances where you discuss more than one type of controller at a time, and at this piont it is useful to be able to use a name. For instance, in GT4 discussions we often talk about the DS2 vs the DF Pro, stuff like that.

Otherwise, we could rename the different Sony controllers (PC0), PC1, PC2, and PC3, but I'm not sure if that's less confusing. Where PC would stand for playstation controller obviously. But it does make it easier to discuss them among each other. And wasn't the original playstation controller just called playstation controller anyway, before the original dualshock was introduced? (also still on the PSX)

Which makes me wonder what would happen if the 6X in about a year or two gets a rumble update (yeah right), what do we name it then?

Or maybe just call the sixaxis "*"?

(And since wii-mote can also be called 'tiny spec of dust', then could give that a straight ".")

Actually, sixaxis is short enough, if you ask me.

(As for london-boy's suggestions, those names really do require a rumble feature ...)