IMG confirm that Intel is using SGX

[Entropy]

Vendor side PR. doesn't count for anything.

Not only is it PR, it leaves out the most critical aspect of these products, power draw.
Intel has been capable of outperforming ARM products for a long time. And nobody in these segments have given a damn, of course. Now that it's so bleedingly obvious that small portable computing devices is where the action will be that even the PC companies belatedly wants in, it seems that the PR (and the PC industry observers they talk to) still haven't understood that this ballgame plays by different rules, and that "performance" isn't where it's at. It never was. It was always a second tier consideration, and it still is because for the overwhelming number of applications extended battery life brings much higher value than another 50% in performance.

So rather than any factual content, this little tidbit is interesting because it shows Intel as a PC company trying to sell to PC people.

 

[rpg.314]

Always worth considering, but given that they currently *do* have the fastest SOC graphics in production with the 400Mhz implementation of SGX535 in the 45nm CE4150, its not just PR speak.

What is the platform-perf/platform-power wrt OMAP4, Tegra2, other competitiors?

 

[tangey]

What is the platform-perf/platform-power wrt OMAP4, Tegra2, other competitiors?

of the CE4150 ?, I think its around 8watts, but then again thats not meant as a competitor for the platforms you mentioned.

What *I* said was that Intel has the fastest SOC-ed graphics in production, regardless of power/performance. no one has a faster one taking more power...or a faster one taking less power, unless you're in a position to tell me different, in which case I'm all ears.

Now whether their implementation in Moorestown will be the "fastest" for that sector is a different matter, but the Intel PR didn't say fastest, it said "better". It is however liekly that there will be a number of variations of moorestown for different sectors, one of which is possible to have the same 400Mhz SGX as they have implemented in the CE4150, which I would imagine would be "faster" than upcoming Omap4 or Tegra2 which will be in end products in similar timeframes (maybe a bit longer for Omap4).

 

[Simon F]

Download the newest whitepaper and you'll know why I'm asking.

Whose white paper?

 

[rpg.314]

of the CE4150 ?, I think its around 8watts, but then again thats not meant as a competitor for the platforms you mentioned.

What *I* said was that Intel has the fastest SOC-ed graphics in production, regardless of power/performance. no one has a faster one taking more power...or a faster one taking less power, unless you're in a position to tell me different, in which case I'm all ears.

Now whether their implementation in Moorestown will be the "fastest" for that sector is a different matter, but the Intel PR didn't say fastest, it said "better". It is however liekly that there will be a number of variations of moorestown for different sectors, one of which is possible to have the same 400Mhz SGX as they have implemented in the CE4150, which I would imagine would be "faster" than upcoming Omap4 or Tegra2 which will be in end products in similar timeframes (maybe a bit longer for Omap4).

In the smartphone market, absolute speed doesn't count, platform-perf/platform-power does.

 

[Ailuros]

What is the platform-perf/platform-power wrt OMAP4, Tegra2, other competitiors?

We'll see when all of them show up in final devices. If you're having any doubts in terms of Intel claiming to be ahead in process technology it's easy to find out if they're right or exaggerating.

 

[Entropy]

In the smartphone market, absolute speed doesn't count, platform-perf/platform-power does.

Power draw is an even stronger factor than that. You can´t sell these kinds of devices if battery life isn't up to snuff. The aggravation of having a dead device until you can manage to revive it at a power outlet is MUCH greater than not having a particular power-hog feature. What good is a phone that isn't working? What are the consequences of going off on a business trip, and having forgotten to bring the charger? Or if you're off for the day, forgetting to charge, and then having it die on you in the middle of a conversation?
Bad battery life is unaccepatable, pure and simple. It is a consideration that has higher priority than any other feature, and by a wide margin.

A phone with a flat battery has no feature at all.

(Edit: This is more of a user perspective, my wife and I both buy and use these kinds of devices and have for some time. She has killed two phones by throwing them to the pavement for battery related issues.... And she was right to do so. Battery issues is awful human engineering, and not to be tolerated. And she has refused those brands since.)

 

[Ailuros]

Beyond doubt; but before you go out on a limb and ask about X or Y platform's power consumption (and then hw characteristics and eventually performance) the more burning question in this case is when each platform will show up in final devices.

The Intel gentleman in that Hexus pic is holding two devices; I haven't seen any OMAP4 powered devices yet.

 

[tangey]

In the smartphone market, absolute speed doesn't count, platform-perf/platform-power does.

Indeed which is why historically IMG have won graphics seat (including Intel) in places where power alone was the overwhelming criteria, or power/performance was.

 

[rpg.314]

Power draw is an even stronger factor than that. You can´t sell these kinds of devices if battery life isn't up to snuff. The aggravation of having a dead device until you can manage to revive it at a power outlet is MUCH greater than not having a particular power-hog feature. What good is a phone that isn't working? What are the consequences of going off on a business trip, and having forgotten to bring the charger? Or if you're off for the day, forgetting to charge, and then having it die on you in the middle of a conversation?
Bad battery life is unaccepatable, pure and simple. It is a consideration that has higher priority than any other feature, and by a wide margin.

A phone with a flat battery has no feature at all.

(Edit: This is more of a user perspective, my wife and I both buy and use these kinds of devices and have for some time. She has killed two phones by throwing them to the pavement for battery related issues.... And she was right to do so. Battery issues is awful human engineering, and not to be tolerated. And she has refused those brands since.)

Isn't battery life a function of standby power and the peak power draw when running at full/near-full load? And isn't the latter related to platform perf/W?

 

[Entropy]

Isn't battery life a function of standby power and the peak power draw when running at full/near-full load? And isn't the latter related to platform perf/W?

Not sure quite what you're asking. For phones, standby power is very important, obviously. A phone that has a habit of being out of battery when you rush out in the morning is aggravating to say the least. That would go for a tablet/pad as well - devices that are discharged when you pick them up for use are simply frustrating.

For more multifunctional devices power draw when active becomes more important than it used to be, because they are simply used more. Not only for classical PDA tasks but, (the big ones) web surfing, gaming and media playing. Battery life is a greater concern now than it used to be, not lesser. The idea is still that these devices can be carried along with you all the time and always be accessible when desired/needed, but we expect them to do more for us without the usage model being compromised.

 

[roninja]

so whats next for Intel and its PowerVR'd SoC's perhaps....

http://www.netbookchoice.com/2010/02/18/intel-“oak-trail”-set-to-replace-atom-z-series/

Intel may be set to launch a replacement of the Atom Z series of processors according to PC Watch. The Atom Z CPUs are found on a number of netbooks including the Sony Vaio P, MSI Wind U115 and Asus Eee PC T91MT. Intel had already announced Moorestown, the successor to Menlow that includes the Atom Z series, as part of its MID/smartphone platform.

Rumours suggest that Intel may be launching a new version of Menlow called “Menlow Plus” or “Menlow Refresh” with clock speeds faster than 2GHz. However, another rumour suggests that Intel is working on a Moorestown version for PCs dubbed Oak Trail. It’s all rumours for now but we’ll keep you posted with any developments

Couple more articles here....

http://nexus404.com/Blog/2010/02/19...l-coming-to-replace-atom-z-series-processors/

http://www.pocketables.net/2010/02/...campaign=Feed:+pocketables/PpUx+(pocketables)

http://www.pcworld.com/article/189830/intel_wants_to_put_moorestown_chips_into_tablets.html

 

[MfA]

I doubt Intel has any interest in pushing PowerVR higher up the foodchain, as long as IMG has a good IP portfolio to fill up the gaps for them at the low end they will gladly make use of them ... but I don't see it lasting, they have too many of their own irons in the fire.

 

[roninja]

This is essentially a Menlow refresh. So I would assume they would continue with the PowerVR involvement in that side of things especially being the (potential) lead partner for SGX 545.

 

[tangey]

Intel has put up a "white paper" regarding optimising 3D applications for use with SGX". with some demo code.

The abstract refers to SGX being used in "Intel® System Controller Hub US15W, and similar future platforms"

Body of the paper briefly refers to "In Vehicle Infotainment market".

http://edc.intel.com/Download.aspx?id=3422&returnurl=/Software/Downloads/IEGD/default.aspx


At the moment I see SGX appearing in Moorestown Medfield and Tunnel Creek, and possibly "Tioga Peek"

Also Queens Bay/Tunnel Creek will be talked about in another couple of weeks by Intel. My research indicates that this is the successor to Menlow, and will contain 400MHz SGX graphics integrated onto the chip ala sodaville.

I'm also starting to see some reference to "Tioga Peek" which appears to be in the same stream as Sodaville, i.e. for CE products.

So thats Moorestown/Medfield for handheld/phones, Tunnell Creek for embedded, and Sodaville/Tioga Peek for CE such as STB and TVs.

 

[tangey]

Intel has formally announced the Z600 series ( previously known as Moorestown).

Anandtech have a comprehensive article on it.
Up to 1.5Ghz for phones, up to 1.9Ghz for tablets.

As I have conjectured for quite some time now:-
Graphics are SGX535, from 200Mhz to 400Mhz.
Both Video Decode and Video Encode I/P are included, again supplied by IMG.
(is this the first known implementation of IMGs Video encode IP ?)

400MHz graphics version targetting tablets (that gives it almost twice the graphics engine of the ipad).

Runs Quake III @ 100fps visually confirmed by Anand (resolution unknown)

Power/ times (supplied By intel, not confirmed by Anand)

Sunspider score Z600=sub-2s , ~10 seconds on the iPad:

On the mobile reference plaftorm supplied by AVA (800x480 screen)
Standby time:285 hours
Talk-time:8hrs (2G)
Web_browsing:5 Hrs
audio playback:48 hrs
HD_video playback:5hrs

Platform idle 23mW (snapdragon is apparently 25mW ?)

If those figures are realistic, I'd say this makes this a viable platform. Anand does say that the 5-chip chip-count means there are space issues.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/3696/...600-series-the-fastest-smartphone-processor/1

 

[rpg.314]

Intel has formally announced the Z600 series ( previously known as Moorestown).

Anandtech have a comprehensive article on it.
Up to 1.5Ghz for phones, up to 1.9Ghz for tablets.

As I have conjectured for quite some time now:-
Graphics are SGX535, from 200Mhz to 400Mhz.
Both Video Decode and Video Encode I/P are included, again supplied by IMG.
(is this the first known implementation of IMGs Video encode IP ?)

400MHz graphics version targetting tablets (that gives it almost twice the graphics engine of the ipad).

Runs Quake III @ 100fps visually confirmed by Anand (resolution unknown)

Power/ times (supplied By intel, not confirmed by Anand)

Sunspider score Z600=sub-2s , ~10 seconds on the iPad:

On the mobile reference plaftorm supplied by AVA (800x480 screen)
Standby time:285 hours
Talk-time:8hrs (2G)
Web_browsing:5 Hrs
audio playback:48 hrs
HD_video playback:5hrs

Platform idle 23mW (snapdragon is apparently 25mW ?)

If those figures are realistic, I'd say this makes this a viable platform. Anand does say that the 5-chip chip-count means there are space issues.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/3696/...600-series-the-fastest-smartphone-processor/1

Moorestown is single core, right?

 

[Rys]

Yeah, single core with HT.

 

[Rys]

 

[MfA]

Over 5 times faster than the demonstration at computex last year.