Apple going with IMG for years to come ?

[Ailuros]

I'm personally buffled how can anyone even have the patience to browse on such small devices, especially if you'd want a page that hasn't been optimized for mobiles. In such cases performance is the least of my concerns, primary being that the screen size does hardly help for proper browsing.

 

[Mike11]

I'm personally buffled how can anyone even have the patience to browse on such small devices, especially if you'd want a page that hasn't been optimized for mobiles. In such cases performance is the least of my concerns, primary being that the screen size does hardly help for proper browsing.

I like browsing on the iPhone, I do it all the time (mostly on the go), but I try to avoid non-optimized sites.

But browsing could definitely be improved on the iPhone: faster rendering, faster window/tab switching, higher resolution, full screen mode, more stable and last a bigger screen size (max. 4"). For the first three more powerful hardware would be useful.

 

[wco81]

I don't think a bigger screen is likely. You don't want some unwieldy form factor.

They could improve the screens, use things like OLED which would enhance battery life.

I'm not altogether sure that display HD content, either on a portable-sized screen or outputting to a bigger screen, is in the cards.

For one thing, their content partners may not want to see iTunes video content eat into content on other forms of media. Could be why they require some DRM chip to hook up iPods to TVs these days.

Would be good to know how many people worldwide commute to work on public transport where they could make use of video. Outside of a couple of big cities in the US, all Americans drive so it wouldn't seem to be a big potential market in the US (even though they've obviously bought iPods with video playback in good numbers, iTunes video downloads aren't exactly setting the world on fire).

 

[Mike11]

According to a recent RBC report the next iPhone will come out in July and it will have an improved graphics processor, 3.2MP camera (video recording), a 32GB model, 3G HSUPA and will be 0.1" thinner.
http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/09/03/30/rbc_says_iphone_3g_pro_wont_boost_iphone_momentum.html

I think this is one of the more believable predictions. The CPU is not mentioned but my money is on a slightly higher clocked 65nm ARM11. The improved graphics processor is most likely a 65nm IMG SGX530/531. Although the next iPhone is supposed to do video recording, I don't think we will see HD recording (like OmniaHD) in this generation, most likely just VGA (maybe 720x480 like LG). And IMHO no IMG VXE, because AFAIK Samsung still has no manufacturing license.

 

[Gubbi]

I'm personally buffled how can anyone even have the patience to browse on such small devices, especially if you'd want a page that hasn't been optimized for mobiles. In such cases performance is the least of my concerns, primary being that the screen size does hardly help for proper browsing.

Works surprisingly well on my girlfriends HTC Touch HD. Zoomed out overview of entire webpage at 480x800 and easy navigation for zoom/panning makes it pretty snappy at browsing. The biggest problem for handhelds is still input IMO.

Cheers

 

[tangey]

I think this is one of the more believable predictions. The CPU is not mentioned but my money is on a slightly higher clocked 65nm ARM11. The improved graphics processor is most likely a 65nm IMG SGX530/531. Although the next iPhone is supposed to do video recording, I don't think we will see HD recording (like OmniaHD) in this generation, most likely just VGA (maybe 720x480 like LG). And IMHO no IMG VXE, because AFAIK Samsung still has no manufacturing license.

I think you are right, I havn't seen any VXE license for Samsung.

With regard to the processor, I see Samsung have rather QUIETLY released a Cortex A8 App Processor , the S5PC100. Doing a google returns a grand total of 10 hits. There has been no press release for the product that I can find, and none of the tech websites have discussed it. It is not listed AT ALL under the app processor section of their website:-
http://www.samsung.com/global/busin.../mobilesoc/Products_ApplicationProcessor.html

However there is a brochure available:-
http://www.samsung.com/global/busin...wnloads/systemlsi/s5pc100_brochure_200902.pdf

Its clocked at 833Mhz, the brochure states 720P playback and record, and a 2D/3D graphics block is shown. There is no other mention whatsoever about the capabilities of the 2D/3D block.


Arm have started to use this processor as a comparision point for Moorestown:-
http://media.corporate-ir.net/media_files/irol/19/197211/presentations/ARMDevCon2008.pdf

See page 24.

I find that highly interesting, as of course Intel had at one time targetted the next gen iphone as a killer product for moorestown.

I hear also that there is another variant called the S5PC110, with gets a grand total of 1 hits when googled. Note that samsung never published ANY data on the MBX-ed processor used in the iphone. I think that if the processor in the next gen is samsung, this could be the likely candidate, a customised version with SGX graphics core. The one caveat is that there is no hint or information as to how long this processor has been available. The samsung brochure is dated Feb '09, the ARM .PDF however is dated Oct '08 which references chip size and both operational and standby power times.

 

[roninja]

Whether it is this processor or a customised version it does confirm the fact that Samsung now have an A8 in silicon. I bet we will find a variant in the next iPhone (can't see Apple being underpowered compared with the Pre for example).

 

[Arun]

Oh yeah, I saw the S5PC100 being demoed at MWC, although Samsung's stand didn't have quite as much glitter as TI's or NVIDIA's. It also didn't have all that many details, although there was a roadmap in there mentioning 1080p next year... I asked about the 3D core, and while the person wasn't incredibly clear (mostly because of language issues, we both missed a few words of what the other was saying), it seemed pretty clear that this was 100% in-house R&D and unrelated to SGX or Mali... In fact I already talked about that in the context of another SoC here: http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=47776

Most impressive part of this chip for me: 720p decode *and* encode apparently supports H.264 High Profile. I do suspect their memory bandwidth and therefore power consumption numbers won't be competitive with the likes of OMAP4 and Tegra, though...

---

Either way this has *NOTHING* to do with Apple. I don't know how many times I'll have to repeat this, but Samsung is just a manufacturing partner which actively helps in the design process. Apple has its own semiconductor team, and their involvement this generation will be higher than last time. And even then the rumours that the same SoC was used by another company were pure lies. For the ARM core, they might use a pre-synthetized version done by Samsung and so the clock speeds here would be interesting but that's about it really. I'm still expecting ARM11 either way TBH.

FWIW, I do expect that RBC report to be incorrect. They are known for being wrong and too pessimistic about Apple products - they clearly are launching rumours to either make money themselves or help their clients doing so. I'm hoping for at least a 65nm SoC with ARM11, SGX 530, and VXD 370. That's assuming there will be a single new model though, and I wouldn't be surprised if there were two... (one probably with the old-gen SoC and a smaller screen?)

 

[roninja]

Arun, you think they'll stick with an ARM 11 and not an A8?

 

[tangey]

Arun,

I understand what you are saying, but I my understanding is that processor for the current iphone was totally designed by Samsung. Apple did not have any relationship at all with IMG, no license of any sort. The only people that had the license was samsung. This license was originally used to incorporate MBX into an ARM9 core.
http://www.samsung.com/global/business/semiconductor/productInfo.do?fmly_id=229&partnum=S3C2460

I don't think that core was ever taken up by anyone, it was then re-used by samsung into their ARM11, So samsung had to do the bulk, if not all, of the design work for that App Pro.

I'm not tuned into whether Apple has a previous license agreement with ARM, but as I recall the ARM archeitectural (sp!!) license that was announced for an unnamed company was assumed to be Apple, and that came out towards the end of last year. If that is the first license Apple has with ARM, the timeframe is all wrong for any fruits(!) from that to be forthcoming.

It is not entirely out of the question therefore, that Samsung will still do the lions share of the design work for this years iphone products, even acknowledging the fact that Apple have taken various licenses since lasttime around. This would leave the former PA semi people to work on the next next gen stuff.

 

[Arun]

I understand what you are saying, but I my understanding is that processor for the current iphone was totally designed by Samsung. Apple did not have any relationship at all with IMG, no license of any sort. The only people that had the license was samsung. This license was originally used to incorporate MBX into an ARM9 core.

Correct, Apple did not have a relationship with the IP guys in the timeframe for the original iPhone and most of the design work was done by Samsung, especially for all the third-party IP. The way this was done, AFAIK, is via Samsung's foundry business which had 'ready' versions of various IP blocks: http://www.samsung.com/us/business/semiconductor/news/downloads/FoundryBrochure0507.pdf

This was then combined with a small amount of internal design work inside Apple. My guess is that this generation, Apple is doing 100% of the RTL in-house while the synthesis is shared between Apple and Samsung; for example, Samsung might do the ARM core and the I/O and Apple everything else).

roninja: I don't really know, but I expect Apple to remain fairly cost conscious (A8 is far from free) and I can't see them liking NEON much from a functionality point of view either. From a performance POV, obviously an A8 would be beneficial though so here's hoping even if I don't like that core so much...

 

[Ailuros]

Allow me to drive the conversation a tad away from the above and nearer to the possibilities of the second half of the thread title:

In addition to the healthy backlog level carried forward into the second half, we have concluded a significant license with a major consumer electronics company in November as well as a number of smaller deals. We are currently progressing a number of significant licensing agreements with existing and new partners which we are looking to close during this second half. We are also seeing an active pipeline of interest in our technologies for future years. Whilst we expect licensing revenue to continue to make progress across the calendar year as a whole, as always it remains difficult to predict the precise timing of the closure of licensing deals.

http://www.imgtec.com/corporate/newsdetail.asp?NewsID=450

Their preliminary results (for the past year) will be presented on the 30th of April.

 

[tangey]

Ailuros,

I started this thread on the back of a license announcement made by IMG in Sept '08, which I identified as being Apple. Basically that license said that Apple has now a license on a very broad range of current and future IMG IP. given Apples secrecy, the broad nature of this announcement means that it diminishes the likeilhood of any future Apple-related license announcements having to be made.

For completeness here is a link to the original license announcement.

http://www.imgtec.com/News/Release/index.asp?NewsID=392

 

[Mike11]

Whether it is this processor or a customised version it does confirm the fact that Samsung now have an A8 in silicon. I bet we will find a variant in the next iPhone (can't see Apple being underpowered compared with the Pre for example).

I really think they will stick with ARM11 for a while (Tegra is ARM11 too, no one seems to mind that) and SGX53x for this year's iPhone and ignore the A8 completely and go straight to the in-house designed multi-core A9 and SGX54x (or ARMv7 if they have the architecture license) in the following iPhone SoC (2010/11). Apart from possible die shrinks I really don't see them changing their SoC every year. I think they go the Intel route, alternating new model and refresh from year to year, coinciding with the new model then refresh cycle we've seen them do before with the iPhone/3G and countless iPods.

 

[Laurent06]

and ignore the A8 completely and go straight to the in-house designed multi-core A9 and SGX54x (or ARMv7 if they have the architecture license) in the following iPhone SoC (2010/11).

Assuming they have an architecture license which they would have acquired about a year ago at the same time they bought PAsemi, I would be extremely surprised if they could have an ARMv7 CPU ready for production by 2010/2011.

 

[Mike11]

Assuming they have an architecture license which they would have acquired about a year ago at the same time they bought PAsemi, I would be extremely surprised if they could have an ARMv7 CPU ready for production by 2010/2011.

I guess you're assuming a Snapdragon like redesign. But Apple could just change some small A8/A9 part (for whatever reason, maybe save 0.1mm2) and that would make it a non-A8/A9 and an ARMv7 CPU

 

[Laurent06]

I guess you're assuming a Snapdragon like redesign. But Apple could just change some small A8/A9 part (for whatever reason, maybe save 0.1mm2) and that would make it a non-A8/A9 and an ARMv7 CPU

I'm not sure an architectural licensee can do that. Unless perhaps it also buys the A8/A9 design license with a specific clause (but I've never heard of such a thing, which doesn't mean it's impossible, just that no one claimed that).

Anyway, all of that is speculation so we can let our imagination wander, can't we?

 

[Arun]

Okay, sorry guys - new data made me change my mind. iPhone coming out in June is very likely based on the same SoC as the iPod Touch 2G (different one as the iPhone 3G though, remember! just look at the firmware hacking websites...) - but I also suspect the Touch 2G SoC already supports video encoding, FWIW. The only possible changes would be in terms of connectivity chips, baseband, and the camera. Royalty revenue for IMG should be similar.

DigiTimes is hinting at the existence of a higher-end model later this year with a 5MP camera, which I presume to be the one with SGX/VXD. I suspect the 3.2MP sensor they are talking about is http://www.ovt.com/uploads/parts/OV3640_PB(1.01)_web.pdf and the 5MP one is http://www.ovt.com/uploads/parts/OV5642_PB(1.0)_web.pdf - it's worth noting both of those have integrated ISPs...

One thing that disturbs me is that a phone shipping in July 2009 won't be able to use Infineon's 65nm baseband. So either they're sticking to the exact same baseband as in the iPhone 3G (and still won't support HSUPA because of the RF chip) or they're changing supplier. InterDigital is out of the running, so the only real options I can see for a moderately slim baseband are ST-Ericsson, Qualcomm, and Icera. I can't see them switching to Qualcomm, and I'd be (positively, mind you!) surprised by Icera. So I can only see ST-Ericsson left, which would be intriguing but I'm still slightly skeptical; sticking to the old-gen Infineon solution seems more likely to me.

As for WiFi, CSR's 65nm chip wouldn't be ready either (would be for the high-end model later though) so I can only see the same Broadcom solution as in the iPod Touch 2G again. Alternatively, maybe Marvell's new 150Mbps 802.11n chip for embedded - certainly would explain the "faster internetz!!!" rumours

EDIT: I also obviously apologize for how many times I've had to change my predictions - I think everyone will agree Apple isn't the easiest company to track though...

 

[wco81]

It would be very surprising if they intro'd new iPhone more than once this year, other than a minor SKU change like more storage.

They've been pretty disciplined with iPod refreshes at once a year, just before the Holiday quarter.

Maybe releasing new iPhone models in the middle of the year doesn't line up with SOC releases? It seems RIMM and others release new models several times a year including the late fall. So far, Apple hasn't yielded to suggestions about branching or diversifying their iPhone product lines.

If they stay with one product line differentiated only by storage options, then there is only one opportunity per year to do major architectural changes.

What might accelerate their architectural revisions is if RIMM, Nokia and others gain share by pushing new models out throughout the year. It's one thing to dictate the pace of change when the market share is over 70% as in the case with iPods.

But smart phones are a more hotly-contested market so they may try to go more to a computer-like model (for example, they release new MacBooks, some major revs, some minor speedbumps, usually twice a year). On the other hand, they can't easily count on repeat sales during the year to the installed base since phone customers are locked-in. Plus more than one release per year may antagonize customers or worse, make them delay purchases until the latter half of the year.

 

[Ailuros]

EDIT: I also obviously apologize for how many times I've had to change my predictions - I think everyone will agree Apple isn't the easiest company to track though...

That's true; Apple keeps its plans so close to its heart that it's close to impossible to know anything about them unless you're a true insider.