How can an American console company succeed in Japan *spinoff

[patsu]

AzBat, your list may be wrong.

The 289 PS3 games are Blu-ray only (I can't see them) ? There should be more than 2 Greatest Hits. The PS site seems to only show you the latest titles, not all titles (It lists 10 Greatest Hits but Uncharted and older hits are missing from the list).

Where are the PSN games ?
Amazon has a mixed PSN + PS Minis + PS One classics + add-ons for US here:
http://www.amazon.com/PlayStation-3...rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=1280736502&pf_rd_i=979455011
You may need to filter out the add-ons.

PS Home games are not listed anywhere too.

If you want to, you can import Japan Blu-ray games since it's region free.

Also, these numbers don't tell me the variety, just the number of items. e.g., In the Indie section, there may be many variants of the same game (like LBP user levels).
If you want to count PSOne games, then any PS1 games should work due to backward compatibility.

The counting is quite meaningless.
Suffice to say, they are already way beyond what I can play.

 

[AzBat]

AzBat, your list may be wrong.

I said the PS3 list probably would be. Figured somebody like yourself would actually sniff out the real numbers. Not up to the challenge?

Also, these numbers don't tell me the variety, just the number of items. e.g., In the Indie section, there may be many variants of the same game (like LBP user levels).

<snip>

The counting is quite meaningless.
Suffice to say, they are already way beyond what I can play.

The counting is not meaningless. But I could see why you would say that. The Xbox list shows exactly how many games you can buy, download & play. Yes, there are few Indie titles where there might be multiple "Lite" or "Edition" versions. But the rules for submitting Indie games to the Marketplace require that the games have to be different in content & not just in name or they will fail Peer Review. If you want to the exact number, then be my guest, but my quick run through of the list showed probably no more than 40 or so. That still leaves a boatload of unique titles still left.

Anyway, the lack of the PS Store being able to show the exact number of truly downloadable games probably shows why some people might have the perception that the PS3 doesn't have as many games as Xbox. Using Amazon to try to filter out just the games was still trying but I think I got it to about 210 titles if you exclude anything less than $5. I think Sony could stand some help to make it more apparent on how many downloadable titles they actually have.

With all that said I think Joker's comment is valid. There seems to be more Xbox content in the US than Japan, but the difference isn't that bad. One would have expected to be much worse. The small difference in XBLIG titles in the 2 territories shows how easy & open is to publish to different regions. Granted almost all of them are probably the same as the English version with nothing localized for Japan, but that hasn't stopped some of them from being really popular.

As for comparing the PS3, until there are better numbers to dispute I have to tentatively agree that Xbox has more downloadable games. "Landslide" might be a bit much though. "Notably" is probably more accurate.

Tommy McClain

 

[one]

When did this happen ?

Since Summer 2009 when HT-03A was released. After that Xperia was a smash hit. Then the latest models include the 3D Android phone LYNX 3D SH-03C you posted in the other thread.

 

[cal_guy]

When comparing the F150 to the Tundra or the Silverado to the Titan, That's all one model. We're not talking about the bigger trucks, and the Silverado and F150 still vastly outsell the Japanese competition.

It's also a well known quantity that japanese vehicles hold up the best in the long term, while short term all vehicles hold up decently. Look at the used truck prices and you'll see Toyota's command higher prices than the the Fords and Chevys.

Edmunds.com pegs a 2005 regular cab F-150 at $8400 to $14400 while and 2005 regular cab Toytota Tundra $8300 to $11000. Not much difference there, and I've certainly never heard significant quality advantages or deficiencies between American and Japanese manufacturers of pickup trucks. It should also be noted that until recently Toyota were producing Tundra at maximum capacity, that isn't the case anymore with the construction of a second assembly plant, but it should show that Americans have not shunned Japanese manufacturers.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

The counting is not meaningless.

The number of titles was raised by Joker to show there was a lot of variety on XB360, not just shooters. The numbers alone don't denote diversity or quality, so I don't think it's an accurate indicator of the platform offering those wanting a wide range of title the best opportunities. If it were a choice between a platform with 300 tites and one with 3 titles, the volume would be the deciding factor. If it's a choice between 1000 titles and 300, too many games for anyone to play, then the amount becomes less important than the actual content, and if in Japan PSN is offering Japanese-culture experiences that aren't on XB360 (I don't know the case), then all the extra amount of titles on 360 wouldn't be an advantage. But ultimately that wasn't the argument; the point was showing 360 isn't just about shooters!

 

[Squilliam]

Having read this thread I have to agree with SB that Japan is fairly closed towards foreign products. To compete where there is an entrenched competion or mindshare or both would have to require the product to be better than the local competition in order to compete. The Xbox 360s problem given it shares so much equivalence with the PS3 in the games library is typically at best simply as good as the PS3 or Wii, depending on the type of console the user wants. Whenever a foreign product is as good or worse than a local it makes sense that the local product would be picked ahead in that market.

In my opinion for the Xbox 360/next to compete in Japan it needs to be either better than at least one of the competitors, Sony or Nintendo overall or at least better in a comparative sense in an important area. Simply being a little cheaper isn't quite good enough in that market. The same applies somewhat to many of the European markets as well simply because Nintendo is comparatively better in their own niche and Sony is an equivalent but possesses dominant mindshare. It is unfortunate that Kinect doesn't suit Japanese homes because it could have given the console somewhat of a comparative edge.

 

[patsu]

I said the PS3 list probably would be. Figured somebody like yourself would actually sniff out the real numbers. Not up to the challenge?

Your second method is still wrong. PSP Minis are cheaper than $5. They can be played on PS3.
Plus you want to add in PS Home games, and non-downloadable PS1 games if you want to be accurate. I think your Amazon calculation already has the downloadable PS1 games.

Godspeed.

The counting is not meaningless. But I could see why you would say that.

...

As for comparing the PS3, until there are better numbers to dispute I have to tentatively agree that Xbox has more downloadable games. "Landslide" might be a bit much though. "Notably" is probably more accurate.

We were talking about variety of games. For hard numbers, I don't think you have proven anything.

Only a portion of gamers are online. Not sure why limiting to downloadable game is a good idea.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

There are certain products unique to each market that won't be understandable in another country though. For example, pickup trucks in the USA. There are just as good, if not better and more reliable options from Nissan and Toyota, but they don't sell nearly as well as the Fords and Chevys. It's a brand name thing. Nintendo and Sony are very powerful brand names in Japan. Microsoft not as much.

There's a lot of reasons for this. Japanese manufacturer's don't really produce full sized trucks, and if they did they couldn't do it in the same quantities without building many more factories. Full sized trucks are what sells in the highest quanitities for business (construction, hauling, etc.) and agriculture. And sales of Full Size trucks dwarfs those of small trucks (which generally aren't used or considered for construction, agriculture, hauling, etc.)

Within their size categories, foreign trucks actually sold as well if not better than domestic trucks. Compare sales of Toyota's small trucks to the Ford Ranger for example. Most years it would do better while some years the Ranger would do slightly better, although I'm not sure on this last bit. It's quite possible that Toyota's small trucks have been consistently outselling the Ranger for the past 2 decades. And the Toyota sales absolutely demolished sales of Chevy and Dodge small sized trucks. And it says something that Ford is dicontinuing domestic sales of the Ranger and instead promoting the full sized F150 as its replacement. They've basically bowed out of the small truck market in the US. Although I think the Mazda small trucks are still based on the Ranger platform.

The Toyota T100 could actually claim to sell more than any other truck in its size category (mid sized) just because American companies really didn't make any mid sized trucks. I think Dodge was the only domestic company that tried. [edit] Interesting that Wikipedia lists the T100 as a full sized even though it is anything but a full sized. I'm assuming the Tundra was the replacement. As it was also enlarged, I wonder if they finally made the truck bed useable for construction and agricultural duties (the main deficiency of the T100). However, that said, its price (base model ~5000 USD higher than a base F150) puts it out of consideration for most construction and agricultural duties, leaving Ford with little to no competition in that area (at least with regards to foreign trucks).

My post wasn't about variety. It was to show alot of people bought a 360 because of shooters. When 9 of the 10 most selling games are shooters, i think it's clear that shooters are a big selling point for most peoples who bought a 360.

As I said if you look at all titles by both companies that sold 1+ million copies. It shows that X360 buyers actually have a broader taste of titles then those that buy PS3 games.

Or to put it another way, people on X360 are far more likely to buy non-traditional games than those on PS3. As I pointed out there isn't a 1+ million selling card game on PS3. There isn't a 1+ million selling Fighting game on PS3 (although here I have to bring into question Wikipedia's numbers, I have my doubts on this one). There isn't a 1+ million selling Boxing game on PS3.

But even that doesn't really tell the whole story. As worldwide software sales (at least according to Wikipedia) are fairly close. Considering the variety of titles is pretty equivalent, it can be assumed that within the entire range of X360 and PS3 owners, that they all like a great variety of game types.

So you can say that X360 owners might like Shooters more than PS3 owners. But you can't say PS3 owners like everything else more than X360 owners. As you can also rightfully say that X360 owners like Boxing games more than PS3 owners. Or that X360 owners like Sports games more than PS3 owners (going by sales).

And the one that shoots this whole comparison into ridiculous land, that X360 owners like RPGs more than PS3 owners. And this one isn't even as close as the shooter comparison. With the ratio of sold RPGs on X360 versus PS3 being far higher than shooters not only in terms of titles offered but in units sold. And that would be far far worse if you exclude numbers from Japan.

So is X360 the RPG console also then?

Regards,
SB

 

[corduroygt]

The Toyota T100 could actually claim to sell more than any other truck in its size category (mid sized) just because American companies really didn't make any mid sized trucks. I think Dodge was the only domestic company that tried. [edit] Interesting that Wikipedia lists the T100 as a full sized even though it is anything but a full sized. I'm assuming the Tundra was the replacement. As it was also enlarged, I wonder if they finally made the truck bed useable for construction and agricultural duties (the main deficiency of the T100). However, that said, its price (base model ~5000 USD higher than a base F150) puts it out of consideration for most construction and agricultural duties, leaving Ford with little to no competition in that area (at least with regards to foreign trucks).

The Tundra and Titan are competitive with the F-150, and according to Edmunds, their prices were within $1k of each other, not $5k. However someone pointed out that they were supply constrained, which may be true, so I'm not going to dispute that. However, you'd have to ask why Hyundai/Kia/Toyota feel the need to mention "Built in the USA" in their ads...

As I said if you look at all titles by both companies that sold 1+ million copies. It shows that X360 buyers actually have a broader taste of titles then those that buy PS3 games.

Or to put it another way, people on X360 are far more likely to buy non-traditional games than those on PS3. As I pointed out there isn't a 1+ million selling card game on PS3. There isn't a 1+ million selling Fighting game on PS3 (although here I have to bring into question Wikipedia's numbers, I have my doubts on this one). There isn't a 1+ million selling Boxing game on PS3.

Where is this list, because I'm extremely skeptical about it, since not even publishers break down how many copies they sell of each game worldwide. Especially when SF4 did similar numbers in the US on both PS3 and 360, and you know it's going to be heavily skewed towards the PS3 everywhere else.

Don't take this wrongly, as I just don't Wikipedia much on these things, but I still agree with you that 360 is not only a shooter console. However, sales of some games that don't involve shooting are better on the PS3 with respect to its install base. A first person shooter game like MW2 might sell about the same, or even better than its install base ratio, but on the other hand, games like Street Fighter, Madden and Mafia 2 (which is technically still a shooter) sells closer to 1:1. The 360 definitely has that FPS stigma, but there are many kinds of games on there, I'd agree.

So is X360 the RPG console also then?

More like the "Shooter RPG" console, since I cannot think of 360 RPG's besides Fallout, Mass Effect and Borderlands
Certainly nothing something similar to Demons' Souls, FF13, or Valkyria Chronicles that sold well. I think there's Dragon Age that did well on the 360, but I'm unaware of its performance across platforms.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

The Tundra and Titan are competitive with the F-150, and according to Edmunds, their prices were within $1k of each other, not $5k. However someone pointed out that there wasn't enough capacity for them, which may be true, so I'm not going to dispute that. However, you'd have to ask why Hyundai/Kia/Toyota feel the need to mention "Built in the USA" in their ads...

After doing a bit more research, it does appear that the Tundra addressed the major concern people had with the mid-sized T100. And thus it has a more industry standard sized truck bed as well as options for more powerful (high torque) engines. Also helps to explain why sales jumped from 50k the previous year for the T100 to 100k the following year and then has been selling at capacity since then, ~130k until the second plant came online and over 200k after.

Considering the market leader in that classification, the F-150, sells greater than 750k (this was 2008 number, too lazy to look up more recent numbers) Toyota will have to bring online quite a few more manufacturing plants.

Considering the F-150 has been the best selling truck for 33 years now, they face the same uphill battle that Chevy and Dodge face.

As to the built in the USA advetisement. Well it's built in the US for the US, so why not throw it in for extra advertising. The Toyota small trucks have pretty much dominated the small truck market without the need for that marketing endorsement so I really don't see much "buy American" bias here.

Where is this list, because I'm extremely skeptical about it, since not even publishers break down how many copies they sell of each game worldwide. Especially when SF4 did similar numbers in the US on both PS3 and 360, and you know it's going to be heavily skewed towards the PS3 everywhere else.

Don't take this wrongly, as I just don't Wikipedia much on these things, but I still agree with you that 360 is not only a shooter console. However, sales of some games that don't involve shooting are better on the PS3 considering its install base. A first person shooter game like MW2 might sell about the same, or even better than its install base advantage, but on the other hand, games like Madden and Mafia 2 (which is technically still a shooter) sells closer to 1:1. The 360 definitely has that FPS stigma, but there are many kinds of games on there, I'd agree.

Using Wikipedia numbers here which appear to be sourced from many places [186 references] from company press releases to company financial reports to NPD to MCV to magazines, etc. But yes, it's a rough guess for all intents and purposes using numbers from all countries. But it's a rough estimate that applies to both consoles.

As I said, I don't entirely trust the fighting games number as SF IV must have sold better than 1+ million worldwide on PS3 for example. Likewise I'm surprised that Uncharted 2 is reported as similar to Fable 2 on Wikipedia. I would have thought Fable 2 to have been higher. But again this is worldwide estimates not just US, which brings it more in line. But it is what it is, a quick reference.

As well worldwide number of consoles are close enough to 1:1 as to be no difference. Even for 2009 it was close enough to 1:1 as to be of no significance world wide.

More like the Fallout console, since that's the only RPG that has big sales and a discrepancy in the install base.

There's far more than just Fallout 3 on both platforms. Fable series, Oblivion, ME series (even if ME2 was an abomination), FF XIII, Blue Dragon, Demon Souls, DAO, Sacred 2, a bunch of RPGs on X360 that I can't even think of at the moment, I'm sure there's a few more on PS3 that I'm not thinking of (White something?).

Regards,
SB

 

[zed]

Ill repeat my question

why has the xbox360 tanked in spain?

Are the spanish, american haters or japanese lovers or does it have nothing to do with nationality?

also I just see kinect has only sold 25k in germany (3 weeks) it sold 26k in 1 week in japan. do the germans also hate the americans and wont buy their consoles?

 

[AzBat]

Your second method is still wrong. PSP Minis are cheaper than $5. They can be played on PS3.
Plus you want to add in PS Home games, and non-downloadable PS1 games if you want to be accurate. I think your Amazon calculation already has the downloadable PS1 games.

Godspeed.



We were talking about variety of games. For hard numbers, I don't think you have proven anything.

Only a portion of gamers are online. Not sure why limiting to downloadable game is a good idea.

Hey, don't blame me for not finding a better way to search for all PS3 downloadable games. In fact you gave me the second option. BTW, the Amazon link you provided didn't have any games less than $5 anyway. It was all just avatars, clothes/costumes, themes or other types of add-ons. I tried looking for the Minis games on both the PSN & Amazon site, but neither one gave a way to narrow those down separately. So they're probably lumped in with the regular games. Anyway, if you have a better method for doing an Apple-to-Apples comparison with the Xbox titles, then please share. As for limiting it to only downloadable games, this was all based on Joker's post. The premise was that there are loads of _downloadable_games_ in the US, but probably way less in Japan. I already showed the data for Xbox. Took less than 5 minutes for both territories. I tried to show how it compared on the PS3, but naturally it's not as easy. If anybody else wants to try that's fine by me. But I think I already gave the data that Joker was originally looking for.

Tommy McClain

 

[AzBat]

Ill repeat my question

why has the xbox360 tanked in spain?

Are the spanish, american haters or japanese lovers or does it have nothing to do with nationality?

also I just see kinect has only sold 25k in germany (3 weeks) it sold 26k in 1 week in japan. do the germans also hate the americans and wont buy their consoles?

Maybe it has to do with not knowing how to pronounce the letter 'X'? LOL or maybe they think American companies favor Mexican Spanish over true Spanish?

Like anything I think certain territories are more susceptible to brand loyalty than others. Spain probably became more brand loyal to the Playstation brand in the PS2 heyday. It just carried over to this generation. It's just been harder for Microsoft to compete especially when other European territories probably get more attention & funding. But with the Playstation brand being so entrenched I'm not so sure throwing more money into the territory will solve the problem. Delivering a clearly better product will eventually entice them away. Something they gotta have now & something they can't get anywhere else. And I'll agree that outside North America I don't think the Xbox's perception is there yet. Maybe next gen, but they'll need to try something new. Can't keep doing what they're doing now.

Tommy McClain

 

[patsu]

Hey, don't blame me for not finding a better way to search for all PS3 downloadable games. In fact you gave me the second option. BTW, the Amazon link you provided didn't have any games less than $5 anyway. It was all just avatars, clothes/costumes, themes or other types of add-ons. I tried looking for the Minis games on both the PSN & Amazon site, but neither one gave a way to narrow those down separately. So they're probably lumped in with the regular games. Anyway, if you have a better method for doing an Apple-to-Apples comparison with the Xbox titles, then please share.

Who's blaming you ? I'm just saying your methods are wrong since you solicited for feedback. Already warned you that the Amazon link lumps everything together (and you have to filter out add-ons). ^_^

There is at least one game below $5 in the list:
http://www.amazon.com/Age-Zombies-O..._2?ie=UTF8&s=videogames&qid=1291263311&sr=1-2

Perhaps there's not enough margin for Amazon to resell the cheaper PSP Minis (e.g., $2.99).

As I mentioned, it's a meaningless exercise (Doesn't answer the variety question, too many missing items, and who's going to buy all the games ?), but you attempted anyway.

 

[AzBat]

Who's blaming you ? I'm just saying your methods are wrong since you solicited for feedback. Already warned you that the Amazon link lumps everything together (and you have to filter out add-ons). ^_^

There is at least one game below $5 in the list:
http://www.amazon.com/Age-Zombies-O..._2?ie=UTF8&s=videogames&qid=1291263311&sr=1-2

Perhaps there's not enough margin for Amazon to resell the cheaper PSP Minis (e.g., $2.99).

As I mentioned, it's a meaningless exercise (Doesn't answer the variety question, too many missing items, and who's going to buy all the games ?), but you attempted anyway.

I totally disagree on the meaningless part. For you it seems to be, but it only takes somebody with a set of eyes to look through the lists to see the variety. I don't think you even looked through alot of the links I provided.

As for Age of Zombies, it was actually in my 2nd count since I actually excluded everything $4.98 or less. So anything that was $4.99 or more was included.

BTW, I wasn't actually soliciting so much as feedback as much as soliciting somebody to give better PS3 downloadable game numbers. You still haven't. Already knew you would think anything I said was wrong, that's why said as much when I posted what I could find the first time. If you can't or don't want to provide that data that's fine, just move along & so will I.

Tommy McClain

 

[liolio]

Ill repeat my question

why has the xbox360 tanked in spain?

Are the spanish, american haters or japanese lovers or does it have nothing to do with nationality?

also I just see kinect has only sold 25k in germany (3 weeks) it sold 26k in 1 week in japan. do the germans also hate the americans and wont buy their consoles?

What is the 360/ps3 ratio in Spain? How it compares to the same ratio in Japan?

Spain seems to be pretty attached to the playstation brand but I don't want to dig to much in the issue as I'm not Spanish. There must be at least a Spanish here who could give his take?

If I were to try I would say the situation is the same as in France just worse:
*MS is illed perceived as a company by the intended market, antitrust lawsuits from EU, US, buggy products.
*They are the big american (some latent anti Americanism) trying to make its way on the market spending big dollars.
*the Rrod incidents won't be forgotten any time soon.
*You got to pay for live.
*Sony is the historical leader.

All together that can explain a 1/3 ratio or something in that vain.

I can say almost for sure is that without the last two point I believe that Ms would have won in France as early adopters gave the 360 a chance whereas in Spain it doesn't look like it. May Spanish people are more price sensitive than French ones, if you want the whole experience the TCO for the 360 is pretty high.

By the way I just read that out of 25 millions 360 connected only one out of two are paying for the gold live subscription. Ms seems comfortable about it, it brings them an healthy amount of money but I think that in the long run it's hurting them, I'm confident that quiet some countries are adverse to pay for online gaming but I'm going OT.

More on topic this topic has nothing to do with hate... We're speaking about consumers behaviours, often it's not even a rational choice ie consumers don't really think about their preferences and why they are how they are. It happens countries have different cultures, history, etc. Don't bring hate in the process, there are already enough haters and lovers on the web without categorizing the people of a country as haters.

 

[corduroygt]

Using Wikipedia numbers here which appear to be sourced from many places [186 references] from company press releases to company financial reports to NPD to MCV to magazines, etc. But yes, it's a rough guess for all intents and purposes using numbers from all countries. But it's a rough estimate that applies to both consoles.

The problem with those sources is that some of them, especially the PS3 ones, are a couple years old It's easier to get numbers for the Xbox since >75% of sales come from US and UK, much harder to get accurate numbers for PS3 which has a much less concentrated distribution of sales.

As well worldwide number of consoles are close enough to 1:1 as to be no difference. Even for 2009 it was close enough to 1:1 as to be of no significance world wide.

They're close at the moment, but not when SF4 came out for example. A lot of those sales links are old. In 2009, The xbox had a lead of 7M units, now it still has a lead of 3M. It makes a difference, especially the US lead which hasn't been shrinking and that's where the most reliable sales figures come from.

 

[patsu]

I totally disagree on the meaningless part. For you it seems to be, but it only takes somebody with a set of eyes to look through the lists to see the variety. I don't think you even looked through alot of the links I provided.

As for Age of Zombies, it was actually in my 2nd count since I actually excluded everything $4.98 or less. So anything that was $4.99 or more was included.

BTW, I wasn't actually soliciting so much as feedback as much as soliciting somebody to give better PS3 downloadable game numbers. You still haven't. Already knew you would think anything I said was wrong, that's why said as much when I posted what I could find the first time. If you can't or don't want to provide that data that's fine, just move along & so will I.

...and the count was indeed wrong right ? No PS Home games, no disc-based PS1 games, no Minis cheaper than $4.99.

Objectively speaking, somebody with eyes may not be able to tell simply because the list is incomplete... unless the reader already had the idea in his mind. I don't have a point to prove, I gave a link for you to have a better idea. If it's insufficient, then you are free to find other means.

 

[Sigfried1977]

Ill repeat my question

why has the xbox360 tanked in spain?

Are the spanish, american haters or japanese lovers or does it have nothing to do with nationality?

also I just see kinect has only sold 25k in germany (3 weeks) it sold 26k in 1 week in japan. do the germans also hate the americans and wont buy their consoles?

Nope, we just didn't get suckered into the hype, and we hate all things casual (and love "real" PC games). We also generally don't have the space necessary to even get the thing up and running. I'm certainly not rearranging my living room to interact with a baby tiger (that acts like a dog)

Kinect and (to a lesser degree) Move both got anywhere from mediocre to terrible press in Germany too.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

Ill repeat my question

why has the xbox360 tanked in spain?

Are the spanish, american haters or japanese lovers or does it have nothing to do with nationality?

also I just see kinect has only sold 25k in germany (3 weeks) it sold 26k in 1 week in japan. do the germans also hate the americans and wont buy their consoles?

Sorry mate, I wasn't ignoring your question, but I have absolutely zero experience witn Spanish people whether through business contacts or personally. So I wasn't going to comment on what may or may not be going on there.

My main area of expertise is centered around the Pacific rim (espcially Japan and Taiwan), mostly north of the equator. Some knowlege of consumer habits and perceptions in France, England, and Germany and that would be it for most of Europe.

If I were to just go with a few films I have seen from Spain, my immediate reaction would be that they love Japanese culture and items even more than France, and the French REALLY seem to love Japanese culture and items. Combine that with a little bit of anti-Americanism or perhaps anti-American-Corporationism or perhaps just Anti-Microsoft. That last seems to be fairly common in many (not all) mainland European countries.

But as I said that would be at best a very tenuous guess with no personal experience to back it up.

Regards,
SB