Hopefully this won't get out of hand

[Sxotty]

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/06/13/international/middleeast/13IRAN.html

I always feel bad when demonstraters get killed.

 

[Silent_One]

For those who are not registered at the NYT-

TEHRAN, Friday, June 13 — A third night of student protests outside Tehran University's dormitories exploded into the surrounding middle-class neighborhoods early today, with large gangs of students fighting running street battles against vigilantes armed with sticks and chains. At one major intersection demonstrators hurled bricks at trucks of riot policemen who were rushing to lift barricades and douse fires protesters had ignited in the streets.

The protesters chanted "Death to Khamenei," a slogan that can bring a jail term in this country, where Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, Iran's supreme religious leader, goes unquestioned.

"I've been lashed, jailed for having a satellite dish," said a student, underscoring the simmering social frustrations behind the riots. "It's time to stand up for what we want."

In a nationally televised speech on Thursday, Ayatollah Khamenei accused the United States of trying to foment disorder here and warned protesters that the government would be merciless against those acting in the interests of foreign powers.

Referring to the United States, he said, "If it sees that disgruntled people and adventurers want to cause trouble, and if it can turn them into mercenaries, it will not hesitate in giving them its support."

The protests are erupting as a nervous government is trying to forge a policy toward the United States in the face of renewed pressure from Washington. The fact that they are being fueled by calls to pour into the streets from opposition-run Persian-language television stations in the United States adds to the unease.

"Leaders do not have the right to have any pity whatsoever for the mercenaries of the enemy," Ayatollah Khamenei said, addressing a crowd in the southern city of Varamin.

The public ignored the admonishment, staging in the largest street demonstrations to erupt in this capital in four years. Joining the students were some older government workers and even women dressed in the sweeping black cloaks favored in poorer neighborhoods.

Given the difficulty of moving about the city, beset by traffic jams and violent clashes, it was impossible to get an accurate count. But with the demonstrations stretched at least three miles from the dormitories where the first quiet protests began on Tuesday, the demonstrators appeared to be in the thousands. It was a far wider protest than on two previous nights and one the government is likely to use force to prevent from erupting again.

Control of key intersections switched back and forth between protesters and the often black-clad vigilantes, paramilitary thugs believed to be linked to the government who swarmed into the intersections on motorbikes.

Often they would ditch their vehicles and attack private homes, smashing lights and exposed windows and screaming at cowering residents to stay indoors. Sometimes the students would get their revenge. At one point, they separated a sole vigilante, wrestled him off his bike, pummeled him and then set his bike afire.

Witnesses reported similar scenes of beatings up and down a major road leading to the dormitories. Civilians limped away after being beaten, although one woman extracted an apology from an assailant by screaming: "Hitting a woman! Aren't you ashamed?"

People from heavily Westernized northern Tehran tried to drive downtown to the scene of the riots, creating enormous traffic jams. Sometimes middle-class families ducked to the floors of their cars as stones from the battles banged on their roofs.

Demonstrators tore down road signs and heavy green metal fences in the median strip, tossing them into the street as barriers, and ignited huge piles of trash. They chanted rythmically while banging on aluminum highway barriers, drowning out all other sounds.

"We want more freedom," said one 34-year-old government worker, who gave his name as Mahmoud. "For 25 years we have lived without any freedom. We want social freedom, economic freedom and political freedom," Nevertheless, he said he doubted the demonstrations would bring down the government because they were random and lacked organization.

The current protests started quietly on Tuesday and erupted into clashes, with some injuries reported, on Wednesday, which the government said led to 80 arrests.

The riots are aggravating a particularly nervous moment in Iran's long record of tension with Washington.

The fall of the governments of Iraq and Afghanistan, although both despised by Tehran, created a certain sense of vulnerability here. The United States now has troops stationed along Iran's east and west flanks, and the Bush administration last year lumped Iran with Iraq and North Korea as part of the "axis of evil."

In the last few weeks, senior American officials have called for a change in government in Iran, accusing it of trying to destabilize Iraq, undermining the Middle East peace effort, developing nuclear weapons in secret and sheltering Al Qaeda fugitives. Senior American officials have denied any plans for military action.

The Iranian government rejects the accusations, and recently leavened its opposition to Israeli-Palestinian peace negotiations by saying it would accept whatever the Palestinians themselves accepted.

The sudden appearance of thousands of protesters evidently contributed to a case of jitters among some circles in Iran's jigsaw puzzle of a government.

Persian-language broadcasts beamed into Iran, mostly from Los Angeles, worked to swell the protests by urging people to take to the streets. Although satellite dishes are illegal, the channels are widely seen in the middle-class neighborhoods that cut across the northern parts of the city.

The stations' reports for the first two nights on the numbers and the extent of the demonstrations, however, proved wildly exaggerated, depicting a new revolution unfolding that could bring down the government.

In his speech, Ayatollah Khamenei called on the vigilantes to stay away from the protests. But he warned that continued demonstrations might lead to a replay of July 1999, when vigilantes set upon students protesting the repeated closure of reformist newspapers, leaving one student dead and several more in prison.

On Thursday, members of the reformist movement in Parliament and around President Mohammed Khatami played down the seriousness of the demonstrations, saying they reflected the country's attempt to engender broader democracy.

But some protesters even chanted about President Khatami, calling on him to resign because his reform movement had failed.

The reformists have tried to keep the confrontation off the streets, believing that time is on their side and that violence just plays into the hands of the extremists. They voice the same concern about United States support for such demonstrations.

"We do not want to see blood on the streets," Abdollah Ramezanzadeh, Mr. Khatami's spokesman, said. "We don't believe in street protests."

Many students familiar with events in Iraq are quick to voice support for American intervention here, although they are widely skeptical of the motives of the Bush administration.

"Of course it would be better if Iranians could liberate their country themselves," said Muhammad, 21, an engineering student. "But we have reached the point where we need a foreign force."

Others are appalled by such attitudes, warning that Iranians' generally positive attitude toward the United States would evaporate the moment the first Iranian was killed.

The first day of protests was unexpectedly set off by a government proposal to consider privatizing the universities. A few cellphone calls by protesters to a Los Angeles television station prompted the station to call on all Iranians to pour into the streets. Hundreds got into their cars and went down to see the demonstration, joining the students in their chants.

 

[epicstruggle]

There was a protestor against Israel who was killed when trying to stop a tank. I felt no remorse for her death, like wise i felt no remorse for the hamas leader and his family that were killed a day or two ago. They target Israeli women and children so they should have no qualms if their own get killed. At some point I think a big ass wall should be erected separating the two countries. might be the only solution.

later,

 

[Sabastian]

Of course it would be better if Iranians could liberate their country themselves," said Muhammad, 21, an engineering student. "But we have reached the point where we need a foreign force.

If this movement keeps momentum and grows (not likely considering the fundamentalist government in place.) they may be able to get some outside help, Bush needs greater justification though at this point. It is possible that this is the beginning of the end for fundamentalism in Iran. Depends on how popular the movement is and how hard the crack down would be. It is quite probable that the current Iranian government is interfering in Iraq by trying to set up yet another fundamentalist state using shea Islamics as their pawns. This may be all the spark needed but the Bush administration already has its hands full, errr I think. It would be better if they did it now rather then in ten years though. I knew that there was unrest in Iran with regards to their government, just wasn't sure how much unrest there was, apparently quite a bit.

 

[Deepak]

Had Khoeimani been Pro-US....things would been different!

 

[DemoCoder]

After the revoluton in Iran, there were two political forces. One, moderate Islamists, were appalled by the hostage taking and tried to negotiate a settlement because they wanted official recognition by the US, the other, the extremists, whipped up the mob using the spectre of the American hostages.

The extremists were able to oust the moderates completely from representation by playing to populist anti-American themes. No one wanted to hear the rational moderates who were arguing for the revolution to be peaceful and a matter of internal politics, and against attacking the US.

There was a great documentary on PBS Frontline where they went back and interviewed a bunch of Iranians from the original revolution, including Shiite ayatollahs who disagreed with the concept of the Guardian Council and the infallability of the supreme religious leader. One of them has been under house arrest since that time and was only recently allowed to speak.

 

[RussSchultz]

Had Khoeimani been Pro-US....things would been different!

Had stalin been a nice guy, things would have been different.

(I mean, duh) Khoeimani was anti-us because he was anti-shah and the US was pro shah. Its one of those puppet governments we have been so fond of supporting. I don't think he was anything like Saddam, however. From my understanding, the Shah was closer to Musharref.

Of course, I was 10 at the time of the revolution, so my memories of that time are pretty fleeting.

 

[Silent_One]

Onw of the more interesting things about these students revolting is that they express a desire for more freedom: "social freedom, economic freedom and political freedom". This is the third generation since the revolution, the first being the founders of the Islamic Republic, the second being lost to the Iran-Iraq war that killed 286,000 and injured 500,000. This third generation has no sympathy for the founders of the revolution. They blame them for a government that doesn't know how to run the country. They are young , restless and unemployed. They are connected to the world via the internet and satellite dishes-and they like what they see. They want a good life, a good job, and more freedom. And they are angry they don't have those things. They are not antireligious, but are antifundundmentalism. Wish them well.

 

[Silent_One]

BBC News Online has received e-mails from some of the demonstrators and others affected by the action. The following comments reflect the balance of views we have received:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2989778.stm

I had a telephone conversation with my nephew who is 22 and lives in Tehran. He told me that he had never in his life run the way he did two nights ago when he went to the demonstrations in Tehran. The vigilantes had ran after him with chains and clubs, the reason being that he saw them beating a girl to death and she was bleeding. He said four of them were at her and kicking her in the head, stomach and another one was beating her with the chain he had. So he shouted you sons of the bitches, leave her alone, you animals..... Then they ran after him and luckily he managed to escape from them.
Shahrokh Biniaz, Kuwait


PRESIDENT BUSH PLEASE HELP US
Ali M., Iran


I am one of the students of Tehran university. i am studying law. let me tell you that the protesters are not students. they are some workless people that all the time looking for trouble. nobody from our own faculty has been participating in this protest.
Mena, Iran


The ruling party in iran must start sharing power with the pro-democracy now before is too little too late like the former ruler, the shah.
mike bargani, iran


The vigilantes once beat me up because I was taking part in a protest. They didn't use weapons because I am 13. But they punched and kicked me in a violent manner.
Paya, Iran


The Iranian people have shown their urgent tendency for freedom. Now the US must start to support the demonstration by warning the Iran government not to act against the people. This enforcement from the outside and people's demonstration inside, will finally down the Iran regime. We are waiting for immediate support of the US.
Farshad, Iran

Despite the past, all the family members are taking part in the protests. I can see all ages among the people. The women's presence is so amazing. I can see fathers hand in hand with their wives and children in the streets. They seem both frightened and happy. I can see the traces of opposite feelings in the eyes. It is great that I can see my country fellows finding a way - a peaceful way - to show their opposition. The perfume of old days - the days of revolution - is in the atmosphere. The people are kind to each other. They give help and open the doors to shelter the young ones running away from police and plain clothes' attacks. It is beautiful, encouraging.
Name withheld, Iran


I was at home when I heard the noises. Outside, people were running everywhere, and were trying to hide somewhere, I could hear the guns, and although we are living 3 streets away from the place, we could hardly open our eyes and breathe because of the tear gas. I could see about 20 motorcycles riding here and there shouting and trying to catch people in the street. Mothers were crying and trying to find their sons, cars in traffic were pushing their horns to show their partnership in the protest, but motorcyclists tried to stop them by threatening them.....
Name withheld, Iran

I am a student, I was involved. I think it is my duty, but my parents are frightened because I have been arrested before on Students Day, now if they arrest me again only God can help me! But I will continue - not only me, but all of my friends in Tehran University - will continue our protest to show the whole world we want out freedom!
Behnam k, Iran

The police are now arresting everyone and mistreating everybody, even those not participating in the protests.
Mukiibi, Iran

I have been demonstrating from Tuesday. We talk about this at university. I am very tired with this government and we want freedom like the world in the 21st century. Everybody knows that this government is all liars, and it is just about power and control of wealth. We are cut off from rest of the world, I will not have a job after university. I am a woman and I hate this society, it is abuse of authority. It is very dangerous on the streets, and we are all doing this at risk. When the police, military and Basij open fire, they never care and if you go to prison, you don't know how far they can go. But we have to do this, and so many more people now than ever. It is time for change now.
Nastaran W Iran

I was not among the protesters but was just walking towards the university campus where a crowd of protesters had gathered, when I heard a shot on my left hand side and found myself in a pool of blood. I was rescued by a group of campus students who rushed me to hospital with a broken arm. The police are now arresting everyone and mistreating everybody, even those not participating in the protests.
Mukiibi, Iran

I am very happy but I am afraid to join the protest. I am hopeful that this regime will change within two years and we will get rid of this nonsense regime
Parviz, Iran

Protesters were shouting slogans but if we compare quantity and number of protesters with other demonstrations they do not have enough power to do something . I think elections in Iran are the first and last method to change things.
Mary, Iran

I am very happy but I am afraid to join the protest. I am hopeful that this regime will change within two years and we will get rid of this nonsense regime.
Parviz, Iran

I was there tonight along with more than 20,000 people, counting those in cars who had come there for the students. People of all types - those with chador, from downtown, people with expensive cars, young and old. It was very nice. I hope the demonstrations get organised, and don't get to aggressive - we lose when it gets to aggressive, but we will win if this goes on at the current level for a few weeks. I hope the US attacks with cruise missiles some Sepah/Intelligence ministry buildings! And I hope at least some of MPs who have signed the letter against Khamenei, stand up strongly for people.
Hadi, Iran


Many of the city's residents have joined the students to voice their support

I absolutely reject the concept of "democracy" and "freedom" as nakedly false phantoms of the west. Who would ever want to be "free" when they could instead live in the glorious order and sanctified grace of Sharia? Why does anyone need to have an opinion for himself?
Shahin Shahida, Iran

The Basij militiamen are like wild animals. They beat women and children. The special police forces are even worse. I saw a young man being hit by them while keeping on shouting "Down with Khamenei!" He didn't stop until he was arrested. Some might say this is the same as what happened in 1999, but this time is not going to be the same for Iranians. Nothing will stop us but a referendum for a regime change. We are tired of Mullahs. A new mullah like Khatami will never ever be able to kid us again. We seek freedom and we will gain it.
Farshad, Iran

I was in Tehran in 1999 and involved in the student protests. My experience is that the police do not protect the students. They would stand by and watched as militia men would come and beat the students. Some of them even threw students out of the dormitory windows to their deaths and police just watched and did not arrest them. Students blocked the streets and filtered traffic. The people around and inside the area were very supportive and helped feed and heal the students for those few days.
Nima S Panahi, USA

Twenty-five years ago when I was in my 20s , we protested against the Shah and brought in these maniacs (religious leaders). Now the students are finishing the job and hopefully will finally bring democracy into our country. Please remember this struggle started in 1915 so we are very patient nation.
Alex Far, Australia



The police have surrounded the university in an attempt to thwart the demonstrations

When I was 10 years old, the revolution was imposing itself upon the repressed Iranian society ...Like many Iranians at that time, I have experienced that the truth can be manipulated in the name of freedom. I lost dear relatives, friends and part of my life due to the manipulation of revolution and have lived in horror of anarchy, disorder and chaos when the change was taking place in my country. And I also have lived under the cruel ruling of the present regime of Iran. My experiences are not that pleasant, but I have learnt to live with them and keep my hope for freedom, because Iran is my home and my identity, and being an Iranian in exile makes me to be proud of all my experiences.
Kathy, Canada

 

[Silent_One]

Of course now Iran blames the U.S. for it's problem...

US under fire over Iran protests
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2991920.stm

Iranian leaders from both the conservative and reformist factions have strongly condemned the United States for supporting the continuing pro-democracy demonstrations in the country.
The foreign ministry described the White House statement as "flagrant interference" in Iran's internal affairs.

And the pro-reform speaker of the Iranian parliament said Iran was united in its rejection of American pressure.

Earlier the Iranian supreme leader, Ayatollah Khamenei, had blamed Washington for being behind anti-government protests in the capital, Tehran.
There is no doubt that the United States has been seeking to encourage anti-government protests in Iran - a country included in President George W Bush's "axis of evil".

'Genuine discontent'

But this does not mean that Washington is in fact behind the current demonstrations as maintained by the Iranian leaders.

Most analysts believe that there is a genuine widespread discontent in Iran and the protests have deep internal roots.

Bush enrages Tehran by backing 'freedom' protests
http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,978117,00.html

President George Bush launched himself into the fray of Iran's internal unrest yesterday, praising demonstrators and calling their protests a positive step towards freedom.
"This is the beginning of people expressing themselves toward a free Iran which I think is positive," said the US leader during a weekend visit to Kennebunkport, in Maine. "I think that freedom is a powerful incentive. I believe that some day freedom will prevail everywhere because freedom is a powerful drive."

Iran's foreign ministry accused the United States of "flagrant interference in Iran's internal affairs" and said the significance of the protests was being deliberately overstated by US officials.

"The Americans ignore the presence of millions of people to welcome the supreme leader and president, but they call the protests of a few individuals the voice of the people," said a ministry statement.

Iran protests at US 'interference'
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2992628.stm

The detainees were taken to Tehran's Evin prison
Iran has made a strong protest over what it calls American "interference" in its internal affairs.

The diplomatic move came after almost a week of anti-government protests, which US President George W Bush said were "the beginnings of people expressing themselves toward a free Iran".

The Iranian foreign ministry had already attacked the US for "flagrant interference in Iran's internal affairs", but a formal note has now been sent via the Swiss embassy in Tehran.

 

[Natoma]

There was a protestor against Israel who was killed when trying to stop a tank. I felt no remorse for her death, like wise i felt no remorse for the hamas leader and his family that were killed a day or two ago. They target Israeli women and children so they should have no qualms if their own get killed. At some point I think a big ass wall should be erected separating the two countries. might be the only solution.

later,

It wasn't a tank. It was a bulldozer. The tank was at Tiananmen Square. Wrong country. Besides, I consider it a cold reflection of your values that you have no sympathy for someone who was run over, merely for trying to save someone's home.

Sheesh, get a heart.

 

[Tahir2]

Hyporcrite epicstruggle

She was a woman... stop going on about women and children dying all the time. By your definition the Israeli state is the biggest terror nation on the whole friggin' planet.

Sheesh

 

[Dave H]

Hyporcrite epicstruggle

She was a woman... stop going on about women and children dying all the time. By your definition the Israeli state is the biggest terror nation on the whole friggin' planet.

Sheesh

Rachel Corrie was a peaceful protestor. I certainly think her protest was misguided; and there is a some evidence that the group she was with (the International Solidarity Movement) provides direct support for Palestinian terrorism (in particular, the two British nationals who carried out the suicide bombing in Tel Aviv a few weeks ago were brought to Israel by ISM). But she was a well-meaning, peaceful protestor. Her death is a tragedy.

On the other hand, all the evidence is that her death was an accident. She was standing on a mound of dirt, yelling at and generally trying to obstruct a bulldozer. She fell off the mound--at which point she was out of sight of the bulldozer operator--and was subsequently run over and killed. It is apparently true that her fellow protestors tried to alert the bulldozer driver to the fact that she'd fallen and was in his path, but a bulldozer operator is unlikely to be able to hear someone yelling over the sound of his bulldozer.

Again, a tragedy. You'd think this at least would be easy for everyone to agree upon.

As for the notion that, due to its killing of women and children, Israel is "the biggest terror nation on the whole friggin' planet," that is such a an ignorant and absurd notion it doesn't warrant a response.

 

[Dave H]

According to this article, this uprising in Iran could be the real thing. Let's hope so.

disclaimer: Michael Ledeen is a famous neoconservative, and he holds a primary position at the American Enterprise Institute, the famous neoconservative think-tank. While I'm not 100% positive, it would be extremely consistent with his views for him to have advocated the war in Iraq in part out of the hopes that it would catalyze a domino effect of democratizations across the Middle East. Of course, no matter what the outcome, this week's events in Iran have at least proved that theory plausible.

 

[Tahir2]

As for the notion that, due to its killing of women and children, Israel is "the biggest terror nation on the whole friggin' planet," that is such a an ignorant and absurd notion it doesn't warrant a response.

So why did you respond?

 

[Clashman]

According to this article, this uprising in Iran could be the real thing. Let's hope so.

disclaimer: Michael Ledeen is a famous neoconservative, and he holds a primary position at the American Enterprise Institute, the famous neoconservative think-tank. While I'm not 100% positive, it would be extremely consistent with his views for him to have advocated the war in Iraq in part out of the hopes that it would catalyze a domino effect of democratizations across the Middle East. Of course, no matter what the outcome, this week's events in Iran have at least proved that theory plausible.

And you attack MY sources as biased? Sheesh.

 

[epicstruggle]

everyone has some bias! the point should be whether or not they can rise above it and make a coherant(sp?) argument for their view point.

later,

 

[Dave H]

As for the notion that, due to its killing of women and children, Israel is "the biggest terror nation on the whole friggin' planet," that is such a an ignorant and absurd notion it doesn't warrant a response.

So why did you respond?

I didn't. A response would entail comparing the circumstances and magnitude of Israel's killing of women and children to dozens of other countries', and concluding that your statement was full of shit. Instead I just noted that your statement was so full of shit that it should be obvious to anyone reading it.

If that constitutes "a response" to you, then I suppose your standards of persuasion are different from mine.

 

[Dave H]

And you attack MY sources as biased? Sheesh.

Well, I indicated his political background quite clearly in the post. And I wasn't using him as a source to bolster any particular argument I was making (beyond "let's hope so"), but rather because his article had information I felt would be worth sharing with the thread.

[To compare to your post, what I wrote here would be similar if you had written: "here's an article alleging US war crimes; let's hope it's not true. To be fair, the source could be considered to have an anti-American bias." Instead you wrote: "look at this article! Looks like the US is guilty of war crimes! No wonder they don't want to be part of the ICC!" The problem is not the use of potentially biased sources, because many worthwhile sources have a pervasive bias. The problem is how one treats those sources.]

Incidentally, I was just visiting this thread to post a couple interesting articles that dispute Mr. Ledeen's analysis. First, a column at The New Republic by Robert Lane Greene (an editor at The Economist), arguing that neocons in general, and Ledeen in particular, have been too quick to judge these protests as the start of a revolution; and moreover that their recommended policy of increased (nonmilitary) US support is likely to backfire in a country as nationalistic as Iran. Second, a great post from an Iranian-American blogger discussing some of the events that have yet to happen that will be necessary before this uprising really reaches the point of no return. (Note: permalinks don't seem to be working; scroll down to "Carts before horses and other personal musings" posted June 17.)

 

[Tahir2]

By your definition the Israeli state is the biggest terror nation on the whole friggin' planet.

I don't intend to argue or communicate with one who calls my statement 'full of shit.'

I think it is pretty obvious to most people that this would just lead to flaming and ill feeling.