Help Canada!

[pax]

You saying your a vegetarian? Damn I know rules for safe chickens arent the best in the US but radiation and chemical waste storage? Or are you referencing only the fact that all animals accumulate some toxins in their bodies over a normal life?

 

[Legion]

You saying your a vegetarian?

Let me put it this way. i could eat their chicken nuggets without violating vegetarianism.

Damn I know rules for safe chickens arent the best in the US but radiation and chemical waste storage?

Apparently they aren't very good in Canada either as you seem to slurp it up.

Or are you referencing only the fact that all animals accumulate some toxins in their bodies over a normal life?

These are chemicals added in with the supervision of Canadian authority. The chemicals help to subdue productive thought and open minds to influence. This is one of the many reason why Canadian's can see reason in their social welfare system which is currently bankrupting them.

This explanation goes along way to explain rampant idealism.

 

[pax]

lol sarcasm withou irony is what... and of course you're 'enlightened'. Nice bankruptcy with a gov thats running surpluses and reducing the debt from 70% of gdp to 25% in about 15 years.

You know the US was founded on idealism. Your own strict adherence to neo con ideology is also a form of idealism. You have many economic indicators that show your own country as bordering bankrutpcy of the consumer economy... maybe you should check what your eating as well lately... Rabbit food will have you thinking like a ... rabbit hhe

 

[Legion]

lol sarcasm withou irony is what... and of course you're 'enlightened'.

I see you have the brainwashing down tight.

Nice bankruptcy with a gov thats running surpluses and reducing the debt from 70% of gdp to 25% in about 15 years.

With all the evidence pointing against the ever rising costs of your medicare system i wouldn't count it.

You know the US was founded on idealism.

Most countries are. Your entire medical welfare system is evidence of that.

Your own strict adherence to neo con ideology is also a form of idealism.

Or a reflection of your incapability to debate a losing position with some one without demonizing them or associating them with your enemy.

If you had bothered to read my opinions on human sexuality i'd assure you you'd think me anything but a neocon.

What do you think the neocon's consideration about my bisexuality Pax? Or were you not aware of that.

I find it ironic you as a Christian sight anyone for being an idealist when your doctrin enforces the concept that an invisible sky fairy is watching over your every move.

You have many economic indicators that show your own country as bordering bankrutpcy of the consumer economy... maybe you should check what your eating as well lately... Rabbit food will have you thinking like a ... rabbit hhe

Would you please point them out to me?

Which is definately a good reason to pull foreign aid and allow countries like canada to contribute more. I'd love to see Canada pulls its own weight in foreign military, medical and finacial aid.


-btw i am not a vegetarian. I am not sure why ou though that. One of my favorite dishes is raw filet mignon.

 

[AlphaWolf]

Would you please point them out to me?

http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/

 

[pax]

Well the idea our medicare system is failing is not based on any solid economics. We spend about 2/3rds of what the US spends yet cover everyone. And our wait lists for non essential interventions are less than half as long as the brit lists. Tho of course I dont like any waiting lists and modest reinvestments which is going on in some provinces is starting to take effect in that respect... We need more tho... abotu another 3-4 billion a year would remove wait lists for current levels of HC consumption...

Maybe you're reading from something a bit old but I dont think we've ever spent as much as the us has in HC...

I dont usually deal with other peoples sexuality. I respect personal choices in a consentual setting. When I think neo con I think of all your inane posts on the economy, the UN and politics in general. If you arent aware of the financial state of the average consumer in the US then you indeed havent been paying attention. Even demo said your country needs 4-5 year recession to pay down debt ... as if that could still be called a recession ...

I really find it funny you decided to use my love of KFC as some sarcastic medium to imply im politically brainwashed...

 

[Legion]

Well the idea our medicare system is failing is not based on any solid economics.

I disagree.

We spend about 2/3rds of what the US spends yet cover everyone.

You don't cover the same number of people nor do you give anywhere near the amount in foreign aid.

And our wait lists for non essential interventions are less than half as long as the brit lists.

This is a good thing?

Maybe you're reading from something a bit old but I dont think we've ever spent as much as the us has in HC...

I have read a bit about mounting cost in the future of paying for an up coming large number of retired patients, increasing costs of upgrading technologies, medications etc. It didn't appear at all positive.

I dont usually deal with other peoples sexuality. I respect personal choices in a consentual setting. When I think neo con I think of all your inane posts on the economy,

what of your inane and rather misinformed posts on economy?

the UN and politics in general.

Its rather obvious wrt the UN debate your feelings are fueled by your ideals. You are willing to over look the body of evidence against your argument in order to rationalize a rather weak position.

I really find it funny you decided to use my love of as some sarcastic medium to imply im politically brainwashed...

I am sure you've heard it before. Your dedication to rather naive humanistic ideals is rather telling.

 

[Sxotty]

You don't cover the same number of people nor do you give anywhere near the amount in foreign aid.

From what I hear Canada is one of the most generous countries wrt to per capita GDP. So please don't accuse them of false things. We should be learning from their health care system not disparaging it.

 

[pax]

Im talking per capita danmit legion you know it... And no Canada is not a major power. Our infrastructure costs up here are huge for a very disparate population. So yuor comparnig apples and oranges.

Canada gives .29% of gdp to foreign aid vs .15% in the US. What we dont spend militarily is made up somewhat there.

Increasnig costs fo HC is a universla western issue legion not just canadian. UNless you guys down south intend to sto covering people on a mass scale... well I mean more mass scale than you do now...

As for rationalizing an argument about the UN its obvious you dont know what the UN is or erally at this point dont want to know.

Its really hard to give up such an easy whippin boy eh?

As for ideals we all cling to some in one form or another... itd be better for you to deal on each idea and not post general sarcasm all the time.

 

[Legion]

From what I hear Canada is one of the most generous countries wrt to per capita GDP.

sounds rather vague.

So please don't accuse them of false things.

You state they are one of the most generous countries without providing figures and then procede to tell me not to accuse them of false things....

We should be learning from their health care system not disparaging it.

By demo among other pointing out the major flaws with socialized medicine we are learning from it through its mistakes.

 

[Legion]

Im talking per capita danmit legion you know it...

How is this at all significant to the fact that inlight of massive debt the US still provides military, medical and finacial aid to other countries around the globe that canada could neither organize nor support militarily or financially.

And no Canada is not a major power.

Of course not. If you had the political influence and dedication the US has to world piece (in terms of military, finacial aid, medical aid etc) your situation would be quite. More than likely you couldn't afford it. Is it is Canada's lack of involvment compared to that of the US that makes your feel proud to sit on your laurels and cast judgement?

Our infrastructure costs up here are huge for a very disparate population. So yuor comparnig apples and oranges.

actually quite the other way around.

Canada gives .29% of gdp to foreign aid vs .15% in the US. What we dont spend militarily is made up somewhat there.

does that .15% include private charities all of types? Does it provide for the emotional taxation of sending troops to foreign souls to defend land that isn't our own?

Increasnig costs fo HC is a universla western issue legion not just canadian.

estimates suggest do to the nature of your welfare statism you'll be greatly effected.

As far as the us is concerned the best person to talk to here would be Demo.

UNless you guys down south intend to sto covering people on a mass scale... well I mean more mass scale than you do now...

and i suppose your answer will be to increase your taxation to even higher levels. How high are you willing to go? 50%? 60%? Even higher?

As for rationalizing an argument about the UN its obvious you dont know what the UN is or erally at this point dont want to know.

No, its just rather obvious i haven't consideration for your idealistic perception of it. You perceive it in turns of what it should have been. I perceive it in terms of what it is.

Its really hard to give up such an easy whippin boy eh?

I suppose as hard as it is for you to admit to give up support for individuals such as Michael Moore who distort reality to your liking.

As for ideals we all cling to some in one form or another...

nice rationalization.

itd be better for you to deal on each idea and not post general sarcasm all the time.

I will stop the very moment you drop your condescending sanctimony and cheap shots against the US.

 

[pax]

Demo plainly failed in his comparisons. He couldnt make simple dollar for dollar what services we get up here and in the US. He only had to degenerate his argument on a question of quality when no one up here questions quality but simple access i.e. quantity.

Fact is by running health care on a national/provincial we get a lot more bang for our bucks. Doctors and other HC professionals are as qualified and competent and in fact my sis and bro said entarce exams to the US are easier than entrance exams to canada. It takes 3-5 years for a surgeon to qualify to enter canada for ex.

The only flaws happen when canadians elect conservatives govs who then under immense pressure from us HC conglomerates and lobbyists try to reduce access in order to facilitate further privatisation.

HC has always been run in business like fashion up here. Everything in incorporated tho in non profit status. Dcos are all private practitioners except for a few salaried docs in quebec. We get a lot surgeries for a lot less money than in the US. Cost per intervention is greatly reduced by running large public scale programs.

It simply makes good business sense and virtually all the private sector up here wants public medicare. Only private HC corps want to privatise it. Its cheaper for business to pay the taxes that go to medicare up here than they pay for private coverage down south. Its eventually private biz in the US that will drive public care at least as parallel program eventually. You guys have as much as aging popualtion as we do... and at some point private for profit care will simply cost too much for you guys too.

But due in part to your low infrsatructure costs you can afford to wait a bit longer as HC costs continue to sprial out of control.

 

[Legion]

Demo plainly failed in his comparisons. He couldnt make simple dollar for dollar what services we get up here and in the US.

I didn't see this argument. Can you point it out to me.

He only had to degenerate his argument on a question of quality when no one up here questions quality but simple access i.e. quantity.

You'll have to point this debate out to me.

 

[akira888]

I can't believe anyone would defend the Canadian health care system; it's absolutely horrendous. I feel so sorry for anyone who needs major surgery or an MRI scan up there, god bless them. And Canada's government debt-GDP ratio is still about 15 points higher than the American one, so I wouldn't be so quick to hypothesize about an "American bankruptcy."

 

[AlphaWolf]

And Canada's government debt-GDP ratio is still about 15 points higher than the American one, so I wouldn't be so quick to hypothesize about an "American bankruptcy."

Sorry your stats are wrong.

US GDP = 10.4 trillion, national debt = 7 trillion, 67 cents of debt per dollar of GDP

Canadian GDP = 923 billion, national debt = 600 billion, 65 cents of debt per dollar of GDP

Also they are heading in that direction. Canadas GDP over the last few years has been growing faster than the US's while keeping debt in check, US debt is growing faster than ever.

Source of data http://www.countryrankings.com/

ps. I'd rather wait a month for an MRI than have an HMO bureaucrat tell me I don't need one, or have to shell out a few thousand for it.

 

[pax]

Its not something to worry about as debt to gdb went from 70% to 44% under 10 years and will hit 25% in 2012. Structural changes made in the 1980's largely is accounting for this rapid drop.

Demos rant on canadian HC is recent Legion. Pretty much one of his last drops into the forum.

Akira its not as bad as you think it is. Some provinces and areas are less served but mris and important surgeries are actually not that hard to get. I recently inquried and my sis said there was max 3 weeks for cancer. Basically the time it takes to run all the pre op tests which are getting more intense and varied all the time in order to maximize effectiveness of therapies...

Waiting lists are for non essentials like hip replacement where someone can still walk but would have an easier time of it with a new hip can take 3-4 months. Recent programs have cut into waiting lists. Fact is I think the waiting lists for such surgeries for those 40 million americans who arent covered are quite a bit 'longer' than in Canada... And my bud form Akron with his sciatic nerve who has no coverage as he returns to school to complement his EE with software engineering is quite a bit longer too... Hes been living with it for 6 months...

I told him to do as much as possible to not irritate it until he gets a new job in a couple years when he gets out of school as nerve damage can become permanent. Nice waiting list...

 

[akira888]

Sorry your stats are wrong.

US GDP = 10.4 trillion, national debt = 7 trillion, 67 cents of debt per dollar of GDP

Canadian GDP = 923 billion, national debt = 600 billion, 65 cents of debt per dollar of GDP

Also they are heading in that direction. Canadas GDP over the last few years has been growing faster than the US's while keeping debt in check, US debt is growing faster than ever.

Source of data http://www.countryrankings.com/

Countrymaster appears to be a bit of an outlier numbers wise. More typical are sites like this - http://reality.memex.co.uk/staff/acg/java/Counter/debt.html
- which show Canadian debt as being much higher. "Debt" is always a hard term to quantify due to the multitudes of "debt" types governments accrue. (long term pension liabilities, medium-term bonds, ...)

I'd rather wait a month for an MRI than have an HMO bureaucrat tell me I don't need one, or have to shell out a few thousand for it.

In Canada there's a counterpart appartus. There actually has to be, for any good which is priced below the market clearing price there must be some non-market mechanism to bring supply and demand into check.

EDIT: Link fixed.

 

[AlphaWolf]

akira888,

Your link does not work for me.

In Canada there's a counterpart appartus. There actually has to be, for any good which is priced below the market clearing price there must be some non-market mechanism to bring supply and demand into check

You make it sound like buying bubble gum. People won't stop getting ill because of the cost, demand is not determined by price.

 

[akira888]

akira888,

Your link does not work for me.

Fixed it.

In Canada there's a counterpart appartus. There actually has to be, for any good which is priced below the market clearing price there must be some non-market mechanism to bring supply and demand into check

You make it sound like buying bubble gum. People won't stop getting ill because of the cost, demand is not determined by price.

False. Like any good, health care demand is responsive to price changes. If the price of doctor's examinations doubles, there will be cases where I almost didn't go before but did - whereas now I just don't go at all. It is heavily inelastic though, but even very inelastic goods priced at "free" will experience widespread shortages, which rationing of one sort or another ablates.

I've never understood why health care is viewed as somehow outside the laws of economics. For any good, there a variety of parameters that go into a function that maps price to demand. Health care is no different.

I had an MRI scan once and it was around ~900 USD before insurance (just for the scan and technicians, not my radiologist or oncologist), not several thousand. If healthcare for the poor is a concern, then giving them a cash voucher (with a maximum limit for any aid and a max for full aid, and linearly interpolated in between) to cover private insurance will be more efficent than constructing a huge socialist centrally planned appartus.

 

[pax]

You can get private mri's up here too... they are about 1200$ can. Gov is setting them up all over tho now for the public system.