Halo 3 engine upgrade analysis (for ODST)

[Silent_Buddha]

Thanks for the confirm Al. I didn't expect Bungie to do anything different with the engine. Just build more content. If they keep this up for reach, it'll be a major disappointment. Frankly, it's disappointing now, seeing that ODST went from a add on type pricing to a full $60 game. I'm sure the game itself will be a blast (esp with Firefight mode!) but to see them just avoid tech advances is a shame.

Maybe the've expanded the campaign from the rumored 5-6 hours to something significantly longer? I can't imagine they'd still be releasing a 5-6 hour campaign for full game pricing.

If the campaign is long enough (without being TOO repetitious) and the story is engaging, I think it'd still be worth it.

I don't think multiplayer will factor in (except co-op) since it's supposed to be the same as Halo 3 multiplayer. So whatever new multiplayer game types that come out with ODST will presumably be available to Halo 3 also (perhaps as a DLC).

Regards,
SB

 

[RobertR1]

Maybe the've expanded the campaign from the rumored 5-6 hours to something significantly longer? I can't imagine they'd still be releasing a 5-6 hour campaign for full game pricing.

If the campaign is long enough (without being TOO repetitious) and the story is engaging, I think it'd still be worth it.

I don't think multiplayer will factor in (except co-op) since it's supposed to be the same as Halo 3 multiplayer. So whatever new multiplayer game types that come out with ODST will presumably be available to Halo 3 also (perhaps as a DLC).

Regards,
SB

I have all the faith in bungie when it comes to gameplay and making fun games. Halo3's campaign is a blast everytime I put the disc in. I have no doubts about ODST from that perspective. Just disappointed with their lack of tech advancement. HOPEFULLY they have those personnel working on Reach.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

Finally got to see the Halo: Reach preview teaser from the keynote.

Interesting. If anything this is where I'd expect a new engine as it appears we'll be reprising our role as a Spartan rather than an ODST.

Regards,
SB

 

[Iron Tiger]

Maybe the've expanded the campaign from the rumored 5-6 hours to something significantly longer? I can't imagine they'd still be releasing a 5-6 hour campaign for full game pricing.

Halo 3 was 5-6 hours. I beat it in co-op on my first play in 5 hours flat. But I'm okay with a 5 hour game. I like the idea of beating a game in 1 sitting, so long as the quality is consistently high. The only complaint I had about Heavenly Sword was the framerate.

 

[homerdog]

Halo 3 was 5-6 hours. I beat it in co-op on my first play in 5 hours flat. But I'm okay with a 5 hour game. I like the idea of beating a game in 1 sitting, so long as the quality is consistently high. The only complaint I had about Heavenly Sword was the framerate.

You and your buddy(ies) are either really good or you weren't playing on Legendary

 

[Aeoniss]

You and your buddy(ies) are either really good or you weren't playing on Legendary

That's a bit unfair- Legendary is insanely hard and not how the developers meant for someone to play the game! :smile:

Well atleast not the majority..

It's meant for Die Hard Halo fans or hardcore gamers. Though H3 Legendary is nowhere near as brutal as H2 if I remember.. Oh the horrors and sleepless nights. Plasma pistol was my best friend for Elites.

 

[liolio]

I'm not in a good situation to speak about my expectation about Reach as I still have to buy halo3 anyway...
I'll give it a try based on some videos (between I'm still shocked that there is no Halo3 demo available on "live"...) so I may not be spot on in regard to what Halo3 already achieves.
Game has be support some form of anti-aliasing no matter what the resolution is (could be 640p + AAx2 or 720p + edge AA aka GeoW ).
Laa yosh is perfectly right the game needs AF in some places.
Bungie should settle over a less resource hungry solution for lightning, why not logluv hdr or RGB(11.11.10)?
I would want Bungie to implement real good post processing as well as a top of the class particles system.
If the game has a lot of out door gameplay I would REALLY want Bungie to make use of the tesselator unit, flat ground even with normal mapping has to go...
Improved animations to make movments on a bumpier ground more realistic.
locked 30fps.

 

[Rangers]

Thanks for the confirm Al. I didn't expect Bungie to do anything different with the engine. Just build more content. If they keep this up for reach, it'll be a major disappointment. Frankly, it's disappointing now, seeing that ODST went from a add on type pricing to a full $60 game. I'm sure the game itself will be a blast (esp with Firefight mode!) but to see them just avoid tech advances is a shame. This is esp obvious when you look at what Turn 10 has been able to do between Forza 2 and Forza 3.

Or Naughty Dog with Uncharted 1 to 2 for another prominent example.

Although most sequels DO seem to follow the little improvement model I'm sure I'll get argument but ones that seem mostly the same from one to two include Bioshock2, Assassins Creed 2, Modern Warfare 2..Gears of War 2 is kind of a tweener....

Then again ODST was closer to a one year game, and said to be a small team. An engine overhaul was never in the cards.

 

[AlNom]

Bungie should settle over a less resource hungry solution for lightning, why not logluv hdr or RGB(11.11.10)?

The reason they don't use Logluv is the same reason they didn't choose FP16 - lack of hardware alpha blending. (Then again, the fillrate gets a massive hit from the dual render targets... :s )

As for why they didn't use R11G11B10... who knows... It could have been the colour precision or usage of destination alpha. Or maybe it wasn't available in time during development. :s

 

[Iron Tiger]

You and your buddy(ies) are either really good or you weren't playing on Legendary

I got home at 6, connected the Xboxes to each other, started playing at 7 and was finished at 2. Wasn't on Legendary, but that's not usually what they're talking about when they say how long it'd take to play through. I was planning for an all-nighter, since it took us 8 hours to beat Halo 1 in co-op. Even when we moved up to Legendary, it didn't take longer than that.

 

[Scott_Arm]

I got home at 6, connected the Xboxes to each other, started playing at 7 and was finished at 2. Wasn't on Legendary, but that's not usually what they're talking about when they say how long it'd take to play through. I was planning for an all-nighter, since it took us 8 hours to beat Halo 1 in co-op. Even when we moved up to Legendary, it didn't take longer than that.

I think Halo3 is a game meant to be played multiple times. That's why they have the skulls in there. Legendary didn't seem too hard in co-op.

 

[homerdog]

I got home at 6, connected the Xboxes to each other, started playing at 7 and was finished at 2. Wasn't on Legendary, but that's not usually what they're talking about when they say how long it'd take to play through. I was planning for an all-nighter, since it took us 8 hours to beat Halo 1 in co-op. Even when we moved up to Legendary, it didn't take longer than that.

Hmm, I guess it depends on how many people are playing. I found that with >2 decent players anything less than Legendary was silly-easy.

My buddies and I slammed through the game in probably less than six hours on Heroic but I wouldn't call that the proper way to play the game. We could perform all melee attacks on all but the strongest packs of Brutes (hell we'd even do it to the flood) without taking many losses, not that it mattered since there were infinite respawns.

On Legendary it can be challenging even when using weapons

 

[AlNom]

FWIW, Bungie has stated that Heroic is the intended "normal" difficulty for those who have played the series thus far. They also turn up the frequency on certain A.I. behaviours (aggression/flanking/attacking, dodging, grenades, suicidal ventures) besides the usual health/weapon damage modifiers for Legendary.

 

[homerdog]

Ha so Bungie's normal is my melee fodder

I play too much Halo

 

[liolio]

The reason they don't use Logluv is the same reason they didn't choose FP16 - lack of hardware alpha blending. (Then again, the fillrate gets a massive hit from the dual render targets... :s )

Some question here quiet some games on the ps3 are supposed to used this format is there a specific reason why it would costlier on the 360?

As for why they didn't use R11G11B10... who knows... It could have been the colour precision or usage of destination alpha. Or maybe it wasn't available in time during development. :s

Actually I'm not sure that this format support alpha blending as no bits are used to encode alpha value.
As I've still haven't play Halo3 is there a lot of transparencies in Halo3? (I remember vids with water but I can't if that common in the game obviously).
OT
In fact there was a discussion about various color format and it was unclear how fp10 actually work on the 360, how are used the two bits dedicated to alpha? Is alpha value stocked elsewhere?
/OT
Nobody is sold on my idea about "non flat" ground? I think it's really a plague in a lot of games.
Anyway I know that it's unlikely Bungie devs seems to have a lot of interest in lightning.
I remember reading a presentation about what they plan to implement on next generation system I can't remember exactely and neither I can tell if it was from gamefest or the last GDC, I'll do some searches

 

[AlNom]

Some question here quiet some games on the ps3 are supposed to used this format is there a specific reason why it would costlier on the 360?

It's probably more a question of not taking advantage of something that's practically free.

Actually I'm not sure that this format support alpha blending as no bits are used to encode alpha value.

The format does support blending. Sebbi explained it awhile back. Destination alpha isn't necessary for blending because there is still access to the source alpha, the output value from the pixel shader... Think of it as... immediate use? Frame-to-frame it's not going to matter because the output is always changing, but say for... multi-pass rendering where the value should be kept for each pass , but there are alternate solutions for a lack of destination alpha anyway.

As I've still haven't play Halo3 is there a lot of transparencies in Halo3? (I remember vids with water but I can't if that common in the game obviously).

Other examples would be... foliage, chain-link fences, explosions, smoke, fire, shields, shield bubble.

Nobody is sold on my idea about "non flat" ground? I think it's really a plague in a lot of games.
Anyway I know that it's unlikely Bungie devs seems to have a lot of interest in lightning.
I remember reading a presentation about what they plan to implement on next generation system I can't remember exactely and neither I can tell if it was from gamefest or the last GDC, I'll do some searches

It was GDC this year. I'm guessing you also got the idea for environment tessellation from the Halo Wars presentation?

 

[RobertR1]

You know too much Al

 

[NRP]

No kidding.

And LOL @ Iron Tiger! Play it solo on Legendary and see how long the campaign really is. Playing H3 solo on either Heroic (w/some skulls) or Legendary is challenging. Playing H3 in co-op is just mindless, score-whoring fun.

 

[homerdog]

Solo Legendary is devastating.

I'd forgotten it's no longer like it was in H2 where if one player died on Legendary everyone reverted to the last checkpoint. You have to enable a skull for that in H3 and that's what separates the men from the boys

Anywho, back to the topic, my ordered wishlist for a H3 engine upgrade is:

1. AA (even 2x would go a long way)
2. AF (at least 4x)
3. Better shadow system, basically H3 looks like an Xbox 1 game in this regard
4. 720p

All without sacrificing any of the HDR goodness and maintaining a constant 30fps. :smile:

 

[Aeoniss]

Doesn't Xenos struggle a bit with AF?

I mean besides, it already has it's work cut out with all that crazy HDR.