Got WMD?

[Natoma]

Is lying about the reason for a war an impeachable offense?

http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/06/06/findlaw.analysis.dean.wmd/index.html

I don't believe Bush should or will be impeached over this. I think this is certainly an instance of *very* poor intelligence. However, Bush does need to come out and properly address the "No WMDs found" situation we find ourselves in. Especially considering the bellicosity of his remarks pre-war.

 

[Clashman]

I don't buy the "we were mislead by faulty intelligence" crap for one second. The administration wanted to hear what they wanted to hear so they could have their "splendid little war".

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20030605/wl_india_nm/india_118120_1

If only some of you people cared half as much about sending thousands of kids across the ocean to kill thousands of people as you did about graphics card benchmarks...

 

[Deepak]

I read somewhere that British Government is embarassed becse of the WMD dossier they put out in UN! Same scene is US also...

 

[Natoma]

Here's another url:

"Bush insists Iraq had program to build banned arms"

http://www.msnbc.com/news/923165.asp?0cv=CA01

Weeks of searches in Iraq by military experts have not validated the administration’s portrayal of Iraq’s cache of weapons. Alleged stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons have not turned up, nor has significant evidence of a nuclear weapons program.

Bush was asked whether American credibility was on the line in the hunt for illicit weapons. In answering, he pointed to the outcome of the war, not the weapons search.

“The credibility of this country is based upon our strong desire to make the world more peaceful, and the world is now more peaceful after our decision,†he said.

At a briefing for reporters a short time later, White House spokesman Ari Fleischer denied that administration officials were backing off from previous statements that Iraq possessed weapons of mass destruction by now saying that experts were looking for evidence of “programs†to develop them.

“Programs, of course ... but it’s the weapons themselves (that the administration expects to be found),†he said. “… You heard it yesterday, you heard it today.â€

Bush also defended a second aspect of the intelligence that provided the justification for the war with Iraq — that al-Qaida had a presence in Baghdad.

<snip>


According to the Times, Zubaydah told his questioners that al-Qaida considered working with Saddam’s regime, but that Osama bin Laden rejected the idea because he did not want to be beholden to the Iraqi leader.

The rabbit hole grows ever deeper. So now it's not the fact that they've got nuclear, chemical, and biological weapons and cheney, rumsfeld, and bush stated over and over and over again. Now it's not the fact that they've harbored terrorists.

Now it's "Well, the used chem/bio/nuke technology in the past. They gassed their own people! They were evil! Saddam was a tyrant!"

Lord...... Credibility falling..... falling.... falling......... gone.

 

[RussSchultz]

Natoma, they never had your confidence anyways. They never had a chance of winning you over, or your support. Its not like they've lost anything at all.

So why even couch your statements like they're losing credibility?

Anyways, read what's written. The issue wasn't necessarily about the physical weapons themselves, but the active programs to develop such weapons.

 

[Natoma]

That's what they're saying now Russ. That it's about the programs. Read the first link I put up on this page on cnn.com

http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/06/06/findlaw.analysis.dean.wmd/index.html

Also, here are some quotes from a TIME magazine article I'm reading now with regard to the WMDs (weapons of mass disappearance)

There's no doubt in my mind but that they current have chemical and biological weapons.

We believe he has, in fact, reconstituted nuclear weapons.

Iraq has stockpiled biological and chemical weapons, and is rebuilding the facilities used to make more of those weapons.

The evidence indicates that Iraq is reconstituting its nuclear weapons program. Saddam Hussein has held numerous meetings with Iraqi nuclear scientists, a group he calls his "nuclear mujahideen" -- his nuclear holy warriors. Satellite photographs reveal that Iraq is rebuilding facilities at sites that have been part of its nuclear program in the past. Iraq has attempted to purchase high-strength aluminum tubes and other equipment needed for gas centrifuges, which are used to enrich uranium for nuclear weapons.

And we all know the documents with regard to the high strength aluminum tubes being purchased from Niger were a forgery and an embarrassment to both the brits and the yanks.

Here are some quotes from the article:

The Iraqi regime . . . possesses and produces chemical and biological weapons. It is seeking nuclear weapons.

We know that the regime has produced thousands of tons of chemical agents, including mustard gas, sarin nerve gas, VX nerve gas.

Our conservative estimate is that Iraq today has a stockpile of between 100 and 500 tons of chemical weapons agent. That is enough agent to fill 16,000 battlefield rockets.Even the low end of 100 tons of agent would enable Saddam Hussein to cause mass casualties across more than 100 square miles of territory, an area nearly 5 times the size of Manhattan.

Sounds to me like the case has been made for faulty intelligence at best. Misleading and intentional deceptive twisting of the facts at worst. Their own words condemn them. Keep in mind that I was one of the first people after the war ended to state publically that I hoped we'd find WMD very soon because we needed to restore our credibility around the world ASAP.

It's been two months since the end of the war and nothing so far. If this was a case of faulty evidence only, then Bush needs to come out and state to the american public that he misled us with faulty evidence, and own up to it. But I seriously doubt we'd get even that if it turned out to be an intelligence botch.

We're having trouble getting the administration to declassify documents that would prove unequivocably that the CIA and FBI botched big time during 9/11. This would be even bigger.

 

[Vince]

You really are useless. I take it by your very logic that in accordence with the recent comment to the effect of, "We haven't found Saddam Hussein yet, but nobody is questioning if he exists" - you'd also have to agree that because Osama and Saddam are still MIA, they never existed nor do they currently.

I really can't wait to see you eat yet more crow... will be fun. If there has been a single stedfast constant since the 2000 elections, it's that the elitist dreamers much like yourself have consistently underrated and be ultimatly been overshadowed and shown to be wrong by this administration. Hey, I'm still asking why we're not urban fighting for Baghdad right now...

 

[diarrhea_splatter]

Does anyone else here think that Saddam is in another country? Heck he was a CIA operative way back in the late 60's way back when. Check out this website if you don't believe me:

http://www.infowars.com

 

[theory]

Just ask yourself.. If this war really was about oil and war economy - just a supposition for you - what do you think the government would have said? "We are going in for oil.", "To make and sell hi-tech arms and for a strategic position for more oil when we want to go get it". I doubt it - Do you really think they're telling you the truth?

It was so about money, Iraq were relatively weak and they have a few quid unlike say N.Korea who have big scary guns etc... they have money too, but they're not weak like Iraq.

It's difficult to talk openly about this sort of thing without being called unpatriotic or some such, but it is how I feel... :?

 

[L233]

You really are useless. I take it by your very logic that in accordence with the recent comment to the effect of, "We haven't found Saddam Hussein yet, but nobody is questioning if he exists" - you'd also have to agree that because Osama and Saddam are still MIA, they never existed nor do they currently.

Nice try. Don't you think it's a fair bit easier to hide a single man in a city of millions than hundreds of tons of WMD loaded ammunition, storage facilities for these WMD, production facilities and the scores of people who must know about them?

And if the WMD were so damn well hidden, how comes that they were supposed to be ready for use within 45 minutes?

been a single stedfast constant since the 2000 elections, it's that the elitist dreamers much like yourself have consistently underrated and be ultimatly been overshadowed and shown to be wrong by this administration. Hey, I'm still asking why we're not urban fighting for Baghdad right now...

Underrated? Your administration has failed at almost everything they tried to achieve.

Osama? Still heading Al Qaeda.

Al Qaeda? Still intact and bombing.

Afghanistan? Let's call it Kabulistan cuz that's pretty much the only part of the country contolled by the peace keepers. The rest of the country is in a pre-Taliban state of anarchy with warlords murdering and shipping drugs.

Saddam? Nowhere to be found.

WMD? Nada.

Iraq? Still in chaos, the US utterly failed to pacify the country, looters are still on the loose and there are daily riots and sniper attacks against US troops while your administration is obviously too busy handing out construction contracts in Iraq to their campaign contributors.

Democracy in Iraq? Plan shelved until further notice.

Reducing the risk of WMD proliferation? Well, if you believe that there were WMD in Iraq then the fact that they are nowhere to be found must be quite unsettling, no? Plus, of course, that every regime threatened by the US has intensified or will now intensify they WMD programs - they saw what happens to a country on America's hit list that does NOT have WMD (Iraq) as opposed to ones that do have most likely WMD (N-Korea).

Tax cuts to revitalize the economy? The first tax cut evaporated without any tangible effect.


Wow, that oh-so-great administration of yours has really a great track record. Touting the defeat of two militarily totally insignificant 3rd world countries as great victories while not even beginning to resolve the actual problems and threats. WTG Dubya!

 

[L233]

And we all know the documents with regard to the high strength aluminum tubes being purchased from Niger were a forgery and an embarrassment to both the brits and the yanks.

Correction: The Niger thing was an alleged sale of uranium. Forged documents were "leaked" to western intelligence agencies and quickly discarded as forgery - which, of course, didn't stop the US from referring to those fake documents while being well aware the whole thing was a hoax.

The aluminium tubes turned out to be completely unrelated to any alleged nuclear program, in fact, they weren't even usable for that purpose. Experts needed only a couple of hours to figure that one out after they had a look at the specifications - and you can be damn sure that the White House was well aware of it, too.

 

[Natoma]

And we all know the documents with regard to the high strength aluminum tubes being purchased from Niger were a forgery and an embarrassment to both the brits and the yanks.

Correction: The Niger thing was an alleged sale of uranium. Forged documents were "leaked" to western intelligence agencies and quickly discarded as forgery - which, of course, didn't stop the US from referring to those fake documents while being well aware the whole thing was a hoax.

The aluminium tubes turned out to be completely unrelated to any alleged nuclear program, in fact, they weren't even usable for that purpose. Experts needed only a couple of hours to figure that one out after they had a look at the specifications - and you can be damn sure that the White House was well aware of it, too.

And yet Bush still pointed to those aluminum tubes as evidence of Iraq's ambitions for a nuclear program. I think that was irresponsible.

 

[Natoma]

You really are useless. I take it by your very logic that in accordence with the recent comment to the effect of, "We haven't found Saddam Hussein yet, but nobody is questioning if he exists" - you'd also have to agree that because Osama and Saddam are still MIA, they never existed nor do they currently.

I couldn't give a rats ass about Saddam Hussein. I care about those Weapons of Mass Destruction this country was sold on.

I really can't wait to see you eat yet more crow... will be fun. If there has been a single stedfast constant since the 2000 elections, it's that the elitist dreamers much like yourself have consistently underrated and be ultimatly been overshadowed and shown to be wrong by this administration. Hey, I'm still asking why we're not urban fighting for Baghdad right now...

What crow have I eaten eh? Please tell me. You're the one, along with the administration, claiming that WMDs exist. That this was was always about freeing the iraqi people from a brutal dictator.

I'm the one eating crow?

That' friggin hilarious. From the quotes I posted above, Bush/Cheney/Powell/Rumsfeld's *own* words, they and their supporters are the ones eating crow now.

[EDIT]And FYI Vince, I said that I *hoped* we would not get bogged down in urban combat because I feared the casualties that could be suffered if we did.

I *never* stated that we *would* get bogged down. You can check my post history on that one.
[/EDIT]

 

[L233]

And yet Bush still pointed to those aluminum tubes as evidence of Iraq's ambitions for a nuclear program. I think that was irresponsible.

... and Powell wrongfully quoted Saddam's defected (and later murdered) son-in-law Hussein Kamil when he informed the UN Security Council about the quantities of Iraqi WMD the US claimed to have proof for. Kamil explicitly stated that those WMD he was referring to have been destroyed. Powel gave the numbers but "forgot" to mention that fact particular fact. I bet it was an honest mistake .

 

[Natoma]

You really are useless. I take it by your very logic that in accordence with the recent comment to the effect of, "We haven't found Saddam Hussein yet, but nobody is questioning if he exists" - you'd also have to agree that because Osama and Saddam are still MIA, they never existed nor do they currently.

Nice try. Don't you think it's a fair bit easier to hide a single man in a city of millions than hundreds of tons of WMD loaded ammunition, storage facilities for these WMD, production facilities and the scores of people who must know about them?

And if the WMD were so damn well hidden, how comes that they were supposed to be ready for use within 45 minutes?

been a single stedfast constant since the 2000 elections, it's that the elitist dreamers much like yourself have consistently underrated and be ultimatly been overshadowed and shown to be wrong by this administration. Hey, I'm still asking why we're not urban fighting for Baghdad right now...

Underrated? Your administration has failed at almost everything they tried to achieve.

Osama? Still heading Al Qaeda.

Al Qaeda? Still intact and bombing.

Afghanistan? Let's call it Kabulistan cuz that's pretty much the only part of the country contolled by the peace keepers. The rest of the country is in a pre-Taliban state of anarchy with warlords murdering and shipping drugs.

Saddam? Nowhere to be found.

WMD? Nada.

Iraq? Still in chaos, the US utterly failed to pacify the country, looters are still on the loose and there are daily riots and sniper attacks against US troops while your administration is obviously too busy handing out construction contracts in Iraq to their campaign contributors.

Democracy in Iraq? Plan shelved until further notice.

Reducing the risk of WMD proliferation? Well, if you believe that there were WMD in Iraq then the fact that they are nowhere to be found must be quite unsettling, no? Plus, of course, that every regime threatened by the US has intensified or will now intensify they WMD programs - they saw what happens to a country on America's hit list that does NOT have WMD (Iraq) as opposed to ones that do have most likely WMD (N-Korea).

Tax cuts to revitalize the economy? The first tax cut evaporated without any tangible effect.


Wow, that oh-so-great administration of yours has really a great track record. Touting the defeat of two militarily totally insignificant 3rd world countries as great victories while not even beginning to resolve the actual problems and threats. WTG Dubya!

You forgot two more things. Sabre-rattling at Iran and Syria for harboring terrorists, and possessing weapons of mass destruction merely days after the war in Iraq ended, to no avail because the brits shut the bushies down, as well as the democrats who finally showed a spine.

You hit it on the head. WTG Dubya. WTG.

 

[Vince]

Nice try. Don't you think it's a fair bit easier to hide a single man in a city of millions than hundreds of tons of WMD loaded ammunition, storage facilities for these WMD, production facilities and the scores of people who must know about them?

L233, I realize that you probobly believe this - but do you have any idea how small the actual weaponry is? This is the corrent problem with WMD - which stands for Weapons of Mass Destruction and although people like yourself use it as a catch-phrase, it's aptly named.

One million tons of TNT is more powerful than most contemporary nuclear yeilds. Yet, a true WMD device (as opposed to a Mton of tangible TNT) is small, easy to conceil, and has a conventional effect thats orders of magnitude greater than a conventional weapon - pound per pound.

I'm guessing you don't realize just how easy it would be to hide a few hundred 55 gallon barrels of Anthrax in a country the size of California. Hell, try to find those barrels out of the millions in many industrial parks in any first world country. This is the core fear concerning WMD, it's the nexus linking the US and this crusade for self-preservation in the comming century that you just seem incabable to comprehend. Hell, I don't want to be part of that fL variable in the Drake Equation. Yet, I'll credit this descrepency upto sheer ignorance on your part and not political motivation. I'm sorry, but I see no other cause.

Underrated? Your administration has failed at almost everything they tried to achieve.

You've got to be kidding me. Yet, I'll go threw this for ya:

Osama? Still heading Al Qaeda.

Al Qaeda? Still intact and bombing

Oh yeah, Al Qaeda is definatly still launching large scale attacks... Still bombing? Setting off a car bomb in an Islamist fundimentalist state isn't exactly that difficult to do, although people like yourself will claim it is. Then again, I never did think much of some.

On last count, over half of Al-Qaeda's high level leadership has been killed or taken prisoner with no major terrorist attacks domestically. Oh yes, we're loosing this one....

Afghanistan? Let's call it Kabulistan cuz that's pretty much the only part of the country contolled by the peace keepers. The rest of the country is in a pre-Taliban state of anarchy with warlords murdering and shipping drugs.

Oh yes, and Al-Qaeda is still running camps unapposed and using the country as a base of operation for overseas operations. You amaze me.

Iraq? Still in chaos, the US utterly failed to pacify the country, looters are still on the loose and there are daily riots and sniper attacks against US troops while your administration is obviously too busy handing out construction contracts in Iraq to their campaign contributors.

Riots and attacks on the American forces acting as police?

Let me tell you something, name me a country in the world in which hostile actions don't happen on a daily basis against the indiginous police forces (which the US forces are acting as). Maybe a country in African...

Democracy in Iraq? Plan shelved until further notice.

This is just classic. The US will do in Iraq concerning the democratizing of the country what the UN has yet to be able to do in any comperable state. Just sit back, shut your mouth and watch.

Tax cuts to revitalize the economy? The first tax cut evaporated without any tangible effect.

Name me a prominent economist that has stated this and showed concurrent estimates of the Pre-Bush recession without the cut... Because you're obvious ignorant or atleast not versed in the least in macroeconomic theory.

Come back in a year and a half and then tell me tax-cut don't work.

Wow, that oh-so-great administration of yours has really a great track record. Touting the defeat of two militarily totally insignificant 3rd world countries as great victories while not even beginning to resolve the actual problems and threats. WTG Dubya!

Wow... just wow. Hey, so how does it feel to live in a delusional world where you pass judgement without substantiatied proof. I can turn to the history books and point out that in the past two years we've ended the reign of terror in two of the most oppressive regimes known to modern civilization. We've neutered Al-Qaeda and have them on the run, Osama is way too afraid of a Special Operator busting down the door and putting a .40 round into him within the next minute to even attempt to have the prominent organization he once did.

He's [Bush] passed two tax cuts; the economy is recovering and the DOW/NASDAQ is finally back up in what appears to be a fundimentally sustainable rally. Manufacturing and Productivity is also very strong. Consumer confidence is rising, Volatility is down, and it's off to the races. So, what are you going to complain about next?

 

[Clashman]

That this was was always about freeing the iraqi people from a brutal dictator.

I was always under the impression that Vince didn't give a flying shit about the Iraqi people. I believe it was him originally suggesting to level Bagdhad, that he didn't care if we killed over a million civilians. The post search didn't go that far back, so I couldn't check to be sure. Or was there a change of heart once dubya started parroting the words "liberty", "justice", and "Operation Iraqi Freedom"?

 

[Vince]

What crow have I eaten eh? Please tell me. You're the one, along with the administration, claiming that WMDs exist. That this was always about freeing the iraqi people from a brutal dictator.

I'm the one eating crow?

I seem to remember your constant talk about the war, it's reasons and the *true* political motivations behind Homeland security:

Obviously there are some differences (hello. no genocide?), but the similarities are pretty downright scary........
http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0316-08.htm

I'm pretty sure the world in 1935 didn't see Hitler as the greatest menace to mankind, as the world, post WWII, sees him. Most certainly the germans didn't at the time. You're looking at this with hindsight, rather than placing yourself in the appropriate time period.

Frankly, the lead up to where we are right now parallels so well it's pretty scary.

That' friggin hilarious.

Yes, yes it is my friend. I still get a chuckle out it.

And FYI Vince, I said that I *hoped* we would not get bogged down in urban combat because I feared the casualties that could be suffered if we did.

I *never* stated that we *would* get bogged down. You can check my post history on that one.

Ahh, yes. I love the distint line you can arbitrarily draw between having an Anti-War stance and saying "This can be really bad, it could be thousands of dead Iraqi children" and saying this "This will be really bad..."

I suppose we can pretend that your stance wasn't anti-war and that the numerous posts you submitted in which 'doom & gloom' was the topic isn't indicative of your thinking. Unfortunately, many of the pre-war threads aren’t retrievable, lucky for some.

 

[Vince]

I was always under the impression that Vince didn't give a flying shit about the Iraqi people. I believe it was him originally suggesting to level Bagdhad, that he didn't care if we killed over a million civilians. The post search didn't go that far back, so I couldn't check to be sure. Or was there a change of heart once dubya started parroting the words "liberty", "justice", and "Operation Iraqi Freedom"?

Perhaps you could get your facts in order. The cloest I can remember stating to that was an often utilized parallel first cited by a Chinese Senior General who basically said, "American's give care if you irradiate Zhengzhou or Nanjing - but they sure care about Los Angeles."

I'm guessing it was more of a Freudian manifested error.... which is understandable considering the rest of your post. But hey, thanks for being accurate!

 

[Vince]

You forgot two more things. Sabre-rattling at Iran and Syria for harboring terrorists, and possessing weapons of mass destruction merely days after the war in Iraq ended, to no avail because the brits shut the bushies down, as well as the democrats who finally showed a spine.

Natoma, we both know that your so called "Saber-rattling" is what gets effects in the real world. That whole causuality thing you probobly learned about in the Matrix, remember?

But then again you also supported yet more inspections in Iraq; after 12 years of them purposly evading and breaking 17-odd UNSC resolutions. Hey, maybe we could get it upto 20 years of stagnation politics in Iran?!? Good times! And it will sure validate the UN's existence.. heh.


As for the current WMD issue - I sick to my original responce from early on in this thread. If you were willign to give the UN Inspectors yet more time after giving them 12 years - atleast give the US 1/12that amount of time before pointing a finger that you wouldn't have dared raise against the UN during their decade of failure.

My impression is that this situation is not antithetical to that which existed during the first days of the war. The early days were filled with stories that the progress appeared to stagnate and people, much like yourself, questioned the war even more on here. Yet, behind the scenes there is action happening. And just as in the military aspect of this, when that invisable threshold is crossed (be it the capture of Saddam or whatever), this whole WMD mess will fold as beautifully and suddenly as the war did.