Got WMD?

Do you agree that something like this be most certainly headline news? That is why we lost 50-100 american troops right? To take Saddam's toys away?

I like what Bill O'Reilly said we should do. He said first give them (people on the ground) time. He said that Bush should also order an investigation into the CIA and other intelligence agencies to find out why their data was so emphatically sure there was WMD. If it turns out that there is indeed no WMD, and we have been mislead because of politics, lies, fabrications, then Bush should fire the heads of those agencies. We need to reestablish the credibility of those agencies.
 
In other news-

Official explodes key WMD claim
http://politics.guardian.co.uk/iraq/story/0,12956,966208,00.html
Downing Street doctored a dossier on Iraq's weapons programme to make it "sexier", according to a senior British official, who claims intelligence services were unhappy with the assertion that Saddam's weapons of mass destruction (WMD) were ready for use within 45 minutes.
Despite a No 10 denial that "not one word of the dossier was not entirely the work of the intelligence agencies," the revelations are likely to cloud Tony Blair's visit to Iraq today. Critics of the war are expected to claim that the document shows it was one of conquest, not pre-emptive self-defence or liberation

Iraqi Weapons Only One Reason for War-Wolfowitz
http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle....AEKSFFA?type=politicsNews&storyID=2840293
LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - The U.S. decision to stress the threat posed by Iraq's supposed weapons of mass destruction above all others was taken for "bureaucratic" reasons to justify the war, U.S. Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz was quoted as saying in remarks released on Wednesday.......<snip>......"For bureaucratic reasons, we settled on one issue, weapons of mass destruction, because it was the one reason everyone could agree on," Wolfowitz was quoted as saying in Vanity Fair magazine's July issue

Editorial Desk | April 27, 2003, Sunday
The Meaning Of a Skull
http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/04/27/nyt.nyt.friedman/
By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN
Friday's Times carried a front-page picture of a skull, with a group of Iraqis gathered around it. The skull was of a political prisoner from Saddam Hussein's regime, and the grieving Iraqis were relatives who had exhumed it from a graveyard filled with other victims of Saddam's torture. Just under the picture was an article about President Bush vowing that weapons of mass destruction will be found in Iraq, as he promised.

As far as I'm concerned, we do not need to find any weapons of mass destruction to justify this war. That skull, and the thousands more that will be unearthed, are enough for me. Mr. Bush doesn't owe the world any explanation for missing chemical weapons (even if it turns out that the White House hyped this issue). It is clear that in ending Saddam's tyranny, a huge human engine for mass destruction has been broken.

Whether you were for or against this war, whether you preferred that the war be done with the U.N.'s approval or without it, you have to feel good that right has triumphed over wrong. America did the right thing here. It toppled one of the most evil regimes on the face of the earth, and I don't think we know even a fraction of how deep that evil went. Fair-minded people have to acknowledge that. Who cares if we now find some buried barrels of poison? Do they carry more moral weight than those buried skulls? No way.

Edit: expanded Friedman quote
 
so when it comes down to it Silent_One, it is all justified eh? i really don't understand how to come to such a conclusion. i agree that we did go in and topple a regime that was responsible for persecuting it's own people and manipulating it's society though propaganda; but the missing wmd and the response is just one of the many signs that we did so with exactly those same tactics but only in our own little *approved* way. now i have never been much of a "the ends justifies the means" type guy but that alone i only find somewhat troubling; the fact that much of the bath party hierarchy is still running loose to this day, as well as those within our camp who helped build the party's power, also does much to sower the situation. understanding that those people still run free while so much innocent blood was spilled by our own belligerence is the real toppeler though, i find it hard to justify thes ends. from what i have seen this whole situation has turned out like one big twisted farce; like a dog chasing its own tail only not even remotely humorous, definitely not justified. :?
 
I can't help but see the irony in the media organizations and several people on this board who were all for granting the UN inspectors more time to search for Saddam's WMD programs - a job that wasn't intended for them in it's construction.

But, yet, after 12 years of searching with only glimmers of their elusive program we found nothing. "Give them [UN] more time", said many of you...

Here's an idea, lets give the US just 1/12th the time given to the UN before you open your mouths. Most of you look like compete idiots in light of the events and way the war has unfolded, you'd think getting burned before would invoke that reflex arc to kick in right about now - but it's far to easy to point fingers, vent your anti-American/Government/Establishment sentiments, and then make like it never happened when proven wrong. But I digress...

Although, one thing I find indicative of this situation in retrospect is that the weapons labs found, and stated as such by the CIA/DIA, would have been near impossible to locate utilizing what the UN was willing to offer. I believe I stated pre-regime change that the only way to eliminate these facilities would be via regime change – and this has proven true.
 
L233 said:
You see, just more White House bullshit just like Powell's bogus "proof" (let's be frank here: outright lies) at the UN Security Council.

Ah yes... Sec. Powell lied about the Mobile Labs (which were found), the Al-Samuds (that the UN had the Iraqi's destroy), the Ansar al-Islam terrorist camp (That the military destroyed and which is near where a Mobile Lab was found), the Iraqi Drone program (which the Iraqi's admitted to having), Salman Pak Camp, aswel as the CIA faked the Iraqi intercepted transmissions, and basically every worldwide intelligence agency was wrong (including the French and Germans) when they concurred.

Say, since this is your dream world, can you send me over something to eat - I'm getting a bit hungry. Thanks.
 
Here's an idea, lets give the US just 1/12th the time given to the UN before you open your mouths.

That's too long. If finding WMD is their top priority and their intelligence are reliable to start the war, they should have located and destroyed the WMD before the war even over.

If the intelligence are reliable, the longer the US takes their time to find it, the higher the chance that the WMD will fall into the hand of terrorists.

They may have declare the war over, but the mission of locating and destroying WMD hasn't been accomplish. They better hurry up and finish it, if not people of Iraq can suffer more from this failure.
 
Now tell me ? How are all the reasons enough to instigate a conflict that kills tens of thousands of ppl. ??
Like OMFG IRAQI HAS A DRONE !! and a missile that will go 200 miles!!!
and they have terrorists in there country!!!! Remember Tim Mcveigh ? There are terrorists in THIS country maybe we should overthrow ourselves ... now where talking . On the count of three , every one trying just to get by and feed there family , take fives minutes out and register , then do it again in November!!! VOTE THEM CROOKS OUT!! Me need new crooks!
 
so when it comes down to it Silent_One, it is all justified eh? .......

Now kyle, did I say that? :eek: I thought I gave 3 different responces that were in the news lately. I also said in a previous post that I don't like the CIA and any other intelligence agencies misleading the public or the government by fabrications, lies, or politics. So were do you get the idea I think it's all justified, ...eh?
 
The war was never about finding actual WMD in Iraq, it was about enforcing Nonproliferation policy, and ending the Baathists' ability to obtain WMD's, forever.

UNSCOM already got rid of >90% of Iraq's WMDs, according to the UNSCOM inspectors themselves. However, while the UNSCOM inspectors successfully dismantled Iraq's nuclear program (6 months from fielding nukes before GW1 started), and virtually all of its bio/chem program, every UNSCOM inspector, from Hans Blix to Scott Ritter admitted that UNSCOM (and UNMOVIC) were unable to rid Iraq of the documents, plans, blueprints, and other knowhow that would allow Iraq to rebuild its WMD programs within 3 to 4 years after the UN lifted sanctions. Hussein had demonstrated an unwavering desire to obtain nukes and WMD, and had shown he was willing to thwart the UN in order to further that goal. That combined with his rampant obstructionism during the inspections undermined the US's confidence that UN had successfully neutralized his threat. Additionally, Saddam is on record stating that it was his destiny to lead the Arab world in a nuclear war against Israel.

The US had only two options to realistically deal with this problem: Leave Hussein in power, and prevent him from acquiring WMD material by tightening sanctions... or depose him. Sanctions were hurting the Iraqi people much more than Saddam, and the UN was already buckling on sanctions anyway. That option wasn't going to last, and with the UN out and Iraq's weapons programs at full steam again by 2008 (with French help again, possibly, remember Osiraq), Iran would have no choice but do likewise. An Iran/Iraq bilateral wmd arms race would have sucked in Saudi Arabia and forced Israel to further increase its nuclear deterrent, which would in turn have sucked in Egypt, Syria, and perhaps even Jordan. Voila, the entire Middle East is nuclear, and a hairtrigger (a terrorist nuclear attack on Israel, most likely) away from glassing the world's oil supply. Is that what you detractors really want?

The only real choice here was to get rid of Hussein, and install a govt. that would adhere to the Nonproliferation Treaty.

I disagree with Bush selling the war on the presence of WMD, as I've always thought there are truly none to speak of. UNSCOM did its job well, despite persistent Iraqi deception and obstructionism. Bush was, imo, disingenious, and he should have just told the truth and trusted the American people's common sense and judgement. But the threat of WMD proliferation represented by Hussein's regime was all too real, albeit a harder political sell. Regardless, it was wise to do, and now Nonproliferation policy has been restored, has teeth, and has put other lunatic dictators on notice *cough*kimjongil*cough*. This is a good thing for the security of both the US and the world.

For those who need links and quotes:
_____________
http://www.thebulletin.org/issues/1998/mj98/mj98albright.html

David Albright, nuclear physicist & UNSCOM inspector:

Even as Iraq was agreeing, under the terms of Resolution 687, to disclose its nuclear program and bring it to an end, it was developing a broad strategy for hiding evidence of the program and misleading U.N. inspectors about it.
...
In 1998, many believe that Iraq?s nuclear program has been dismantled and most if not all of the materials and equipment that were used in that program have been found and destroyed. But in a seven-year-plus effort, U.N. inspectors from the U.N. Special Commission (UNSCOM) and the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) Action Team have had to work through so many layers of deception, and have received so many different ?full, final, and complete declarations? from the Iraqis, that they have no doubt Iraq is still hiding important information. Inspectors believe they may never know the full story.

And theirs is not idle curiosity. The stakes are high. [bold]Inspectors believe that Iraq could reconstitute its nuclear weapons program quickly, once sanctions are lifted. Although Iraq might need several years to recreate its enriched-uranium or plutonium programs, it might be able to acquire fissile material on the black market. In that case, it has already learned enough to be able to build a nuclear weapon in less than a year.[/bold] As a result, Iraq?s nuclear potential must be carefully scrutinized by international inspectors for some time to come.
_____________
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/unscom/interviews/ritter.html
(read the part about the Agricultural Ministry)

http://www.nuclearfiles.org/hinonproliferationtreaty/index.html

http://www.thebulletin.org/research/collections/iraq.html

There's plenty more, just Google Rolf Ekeus, Richard Butler, Hans Blix, Scott Ritter, David Albright.
 
There is of course a lot of intelligence the public is not privy too, I know from personal sources (1 in particular) a lot of people in the intelligence business do genuinely believe there is or was WMD infrastructure in Iraq.

Whether that is right or wrong, is something they will ultimately be held accountable for.

You cannot rebuild chemical or nuclear programs with information alone, the threat was always the probability that they do indeed still have the ability to rebuild and refurnish their weapons program in short order, if not having the actual live weapons handy.

That implies laboratories, personel and funding to keep such an operation alive.

Thats what they are after, I doubt very much we'll ever see 10,000 tons of chemical weapons (and im prepared to eat my words), but it wouldn't surprise me in the least that we end up with a bunch of scientists who are experts on say Anthrax and its production.

So in that sense, it does irratate me somewhat that the US government promised something that they probably should know they couldn't produce, even if they were 100% truthful. If there was live WMDs in bulk in Iraq say on 9/11, its highly unlikely that they are there now in anywhere near the same quantities.
 
Fred said:
There is of course a lot of intelligence the public is not privy too, I know from personal sources (1 in particular) a lot of people in the intelligence business do genuinely believe there is or was WMD infrastructure in Iraq.

Fact is if you become a US lap-dog...you can do anything....you can have (beg/borrow/steal) WMDs (nukes/Bio/Chem)....you can commit genosides....US wont raise a finger! You can pretty much kick democracy out also....

This is exactly what Saddam did till he did that stupid thing (Kuwait)....he was a friend of US....infact current enimies were US friends (OBL etc) at one point of time and it is not as if they were any different then....
 
Deepak said:
Fact is if you become a US lap-dog...you can do anything....you can have (beg/borrow/steal) WMDs (nukes/Bio/Chem)....you can commit genosides....US wont raise a finger! You can pretty much kick democracy out also....

This is exactly what Saddam did till he did that stupid thing (Kuwait)....he was a friend of US....infact current enimies were US friends (OBL etc) at one point of time and it is not as if they were any different then....

Nice out-of-context accusations. Let me add a little background. The US's relationship with the Middle East since WW2 is characterized primarily by a single theme - allying with lesser evils in order to counter greater evils, the greater evils being Communism and Islamism. The goal of both idealogies was to control the Mid-East oil supply, and eventually cut it off from the West.

The Mid East was the major battleground of the Cold War, due to the fact that America's and NATO's economies, and therefore military strength, depended on oil from the region. Unlike the Soviets, we were not self-sufficient in that regard. It's unfortunate that the Mid-Easterners suffered as pawns of the great powers, and their continued resentment is understandable, but such is life.

Saddam was a pro-Soviet sympathizer for most of his reign, hence his socialist economy and >90% Soviet-equipped military. The US only began to support him after our ally the Shah of Iran was deposed by the Ayatollah. Supporting brutal, socialist Saddam was preferable to Islamism taking over the entire region by way of Iraq->Kuwait->SA, and secular Saddam was a bullwark against its spread. The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

So why did we support the equally brutal Shah? Because he was staunchly anti-Soviet. An island of pro-America in a sea of Soviet sympathizers and fellow travelers (Iraq on one side, Pakistan and India on the other). Do you believe it is any coincidence that the Soviets invaded Afghanistan in '79, less than one year after the Shah was deposed? That was what the Shah had prevented during his reign, but with him gone the Soviets believed they could conquest the Mid East through Afghanistan.

Next up, Osama bin Laden, but our support of him should be obvious. He offered the only effective resistance to the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan and hence of the Middle East.

All of our dealings with the brutal dictators of the Mid East have been reprehensible, but a necessary evil. It was highly preferable to Soviet or Islamist control of the Mid-East oil, which they would undoubtedly have cut off the West at some point. For America, it was do or die.
 
Deepak said:
Still US talks about liberation etc...crap,,,

Right. Once a bad guy, always a bad guy. Right.

As much as the leftists like to think Bush is the second coming of hitler, I think quite the opposite. I don't think He's out there for the oil or to dominate, but that the man is genuinely interested in doing "good".
 
Deepak said:
Still US talks about liberation etc...crap,,,

That was a bit disingenious on Bush's part, as US doesn't spend its soldiers and money purely to liberate other countries from oppressive regimes. But liberation is undoubtedly a fringe benefit of deposing Hussein, just not the real reason for doing so.
 
The US and British no-fly zones in Iraq were already costing billions a year and $50 billion to date. Part of the reason for the war had to do with the fact that "containment" was adding up, and I guess the US was getting tired of maintaining a decade long low-intensity air war over Iraq.



I said early on that this WMD excuse was the wrong one since it will lead to a massive destruction of US government credibility. Will anyone EVER trust anything the Pentagon, State Department, CIA, etc say again?

The administration didn't think they could sell a war to depose Saddam based on abstract things like putting other middle eastern governments on notice, or to establish a base of Western democracy in the middle east to counter political Islam. They went the 9/11 route and sold it on the terrorist premise.

Very bad for future US diplomats. They will never be believed. I also feel bad for Powell.
 
Probably, although the European diplomats have not earned much trust for themselves either. Their perfidy is less exposed, but exists. The European governments who opposed the US understood Saddam's threat, yet opposed the US for other reasons, namely Iraq's oil and business contracts, its outstanding debt to Europe & Russia, Europe's large Arab population, and the French need to resist American hyperpower. This schism may end up being beneficial if it divorces US diplomacy from European diplomacy, allowing us to reinforce Non-Proliferation and to confront rogue states instead of sweeping them under the carpet, so to speak, as the Europeans seem to prefer.
 
This whole debate is hitting epic proportions, you can't get away from it in the news.

Indeed, if indeed there was intelligence lapses (and thats not sure yet, its still work in process), but hawks are preparing for full on assault of the CIA and NSA.

So people should be reassured in a sense, if there was wrongdoing/fudging/and speculation taken to be fact, it will most certainly be exposed, and the appropriate people fired or prosecuted, all the way to the top.

Its serious of course (regardless of world opinion), we are talking about the credibility of our intelligence sector, and a great deal of money and time spent by the US and British military securing so called WMD sites.

It should be clear that if it turns out that they were massively uninformed or misled, heads will roll.
 
DemoCoder said:
The US and British no-fly zones in Iraq were already costing billions a year and $50 billion to date. Part of the reason for the war had to do with the fact that "containment" was adding up, and I guess the US was getting tired of maintaining a decade long low-intensity air war over Iraq.

I said early on that this WMD excuse was the wrong one since it will lead to a massive destruction of US government credibility. Will anyone EVER trust anything the Pentagon, State Department, CIA, etc say again?

The administration didn't think they could sell a war to depose Saddam based on abstract things like putting other middle eastern governments on notice, or to establish a base of Western democracy in the middle east to counter political Islam. They went the 9/11 route and sold it on the terrorist premise.

Very bad for future US diplomats. They will never be believed. I also feel bad for Powell.

I agree completely.
 
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