Gamescom 2011 : Sony conference discussion

[Brad Grenz]

No it doesn't, save simplicity (aren't handshaking issues still with us?), but inclusion of HDCP doesn't much contribute to PS3's value as an HD device. it's one of those stupid things that shouldn't have happened. MS didn't support it when they released their console before HDCP was a standard, while Sony did and released an HD console that didn't play on a number of HDTVs people already owned. That hardly places Sony as the champion of HD!

HDCP doesn't contribute, but it doesn't detract either, and it's a simple reality as the cost of HDMI capabilities. Since the PS3 can fall back on analog the same as the 360, there's no point to score there. The only real problem people experienced was the tiny number of early adopters who bought "HD Ready" sets in the 90s that only supported 1080i and 480p. That started getting fixed by developers who created explicit 1080i/p modes to cater to the small number of affected user. Ironically, PS3 developers have since stopped worrying about the issue and no one complains anymore because it was such a minor problem for a very small number of users.

And let's not pretend HDCP and HDMI weren't standard at the 360's launch. The CRT HDTV I bought in 2004 had an HDMI port and so did the $50 scaling DVD player I bought in 2005. MS was just being ludicrous in their obstinate refusal to acknowledge the advantages of HDMI.

 

[Gubbi]

And let's not pretend HDCP and HDMI weren't standard at the 360's launch. The CRT HDTV I bought in 2004 had an HDMI port and so did the $50 scaling DVD player I bought in 2005. MS was just being ludicrous in their obstinate refusal to acknowledge the advantages of HDMI.

HDMI 1.0, 1.1, 1.2, 1.2a, 1.3, 1.3a ? As standards go, HDMI is pretty f*cking appalling.

MS did right by waiting.

Cheers

 

[Nesh]

HDMI 1.0, 1.1, 1.2, 1.2a, 1.3, 1.3a ? As standards go, HDMI is pretty f*cking appalling.

MS did right by waiting.

Cheers

He didnt mean "standard" as in "standard version" or "standard functionality".

He is referring to the fact that it was featured in devices for a long time

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Hmmm. Is anyone here really disagreeing? MS were amiss to leave out HDMI - it would have been beneficial to some of their customers. Sony were amiss to leave out decent scaling - it would have been beneficial to some of their customers. Netierh was a perfect solution. This whole OT thread started because someone claimed Sony were leading the way with display technologies in PS3, suggesting even if it weren't for Sony we'd still be SD gaming. That's the one statement I think we can uniformly disagree with, even if we cannot agree over which company was providing the better HD experience.

 

[-tkf-]

HDMI 1.0, 1.1, 1.2, 1.2a, 1.3, 1.3a ? As standards go, HDMI is pretty f*cking appalling.

MS did right by waiting.

Cheers

XBOX 360 only needed to support HDMI 1.0 since it has zero use for anything higher..

From the Wiki "HDMI 1.0 was released December 9, 2002"

MS made a choice when they skipped HDMI and it wasn´t based on "standard" problems.

 

[Arwin]

It was cost. Even by the time the PS3 launched, the chipset and licence fees required were over $50.

I agree DHCP should have been off for games though on the PS3.

 

[NavNucST3]

But since HDCP adoption is effectively universal, it doesn't really benefit anyone to roll it back. Except the four guys on the internet who have never stopped complaining that they can't connect a PS3 to their 8 year old, 19 inch LCD monitor...

Clearly you don't have a home theater setup if you are making such an asinine statement...EDIT: Ask any integrator what they think of HDMI HDCP.

 

[mrcorbo]

HDCP is a required part of the HDMI spec. If you want to build and sell a display with HDMI ports, it must support HDCP.

HDCP compliance testing was added later. It wasn't always required and HDMI-equipped displays that do not support HDCP do exist.

 

[AlNom]

Clearly you don't have a home theater setup if you are making such an asinine statement...EDIT: Ask any integrator what they think of HDMI HDCP.

It sure makes recording videos a bitch. Cue all the user videos on youtube... It's like free advertising for the 360 version - everyone's using that version! (certainly for those music games. )

 

[-tkf-]

Clearly you don't have a home theater setup if you are making such an asinine statement...EDIT: Ask any integrator what they think of HDMI HDCP.

The biggest issue with the PS3 is BluTooth remotes.. the rest.. well what problems do we have? I mean us HT freaks?

 

[Shifty Geezer]

It sure makes recording videos a bitch.

Not really. Just use component, same as 360. It just requires an extra cable.

 

[AlNom]

Well, I prefer not to buy proprietary cables... It's just annoying. *shrug* Especially when it means switching back and forth with the interfaces. It's just silly having to go back to analog just for recording.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Sure, but it's not a bitch as you say. Just an added cost.

 

[-tkf-]

Well, I prefer not to buy proprietary cables... It's just annoying. *shrug* Especially when it means switching back and forth with the interfaces. It's just silly having to go back to analog just for recording.

Afaik the original PS2 cables works with the PS3, and you did use component on your PS2 didn´t you?

 

[patsu]

But HDCP is moot considering BRD's are ripped and torrented etc. It does't prevent piracy whatsoever. It was a stupid standard that the movie companies never properly considered, that only hurts legitimate users, like pretty much all DRM.

I think HD streaming requires HDCP, not just Blu-ray. While it doesn't prevent piracy completely, it makes it less easy to just steal the bits to the display.

DRMs are not bad. It's the business models and unwise DRM policies that rub people the wrong way. e.g., Apple did very well with its FairPlay policies. It struck a good middleground and enabled the entire iTunes platform. After gaining the labels' support via large revenue streams, they can then relax it.

The industry will just continue to evolve as consumers and corporates learn to trust each other.

 

[joker454]

While it doesn't prevent piracy completely, it makes it less easy to just steal the bits to the display.

It also make it less easy to legally watch the bits. I have two displays on my office pc, a main 30" that supports hdcp and a secondary 24" that does not support hdpc. When I try to play a blu-ray movie (either from disc or from a legal rip) it displays fine on the 30" but only comes up black on the 24". Really irritating since sometimes it would be nice to just have a movie playing on the second screen while I work. I'm using slingboxhd now to play movies from the directv dvr's in our house on the 24" display since that works, but it would be nice if the blu-ray/hdcp people would be kind enough to let me watch the blu-ray movies I paid for on this same display.

 

[patsu]

Sure it won't please everyone, but they need to take care of the contents industry's concerns first. Otherwise, no one would dare to invest heavily in the early days when piracy was rampant on the net. Once their concerns are addressed, the rest can move ahead. Even if the tech is hacked, the contents folks would have already moved a few steps forward.

 

[patsu]

Valve: We need to reward Sony for opening PS3:
http://www.develop-online.net/news/38486/Valve-We-need-to-reward-Sony-for-opening-PS3

Valve Software has transformed its once-disastrous relationship with PlayStation, with the studio’s president now calling on developers to reward Sony for its open approach to online gaming.

In a new interview published today, Gabe Newell told Develop that Sony deserves valuable and lucrative PS3 content for integrating third-party online services within its online network.

In an uncommon move, Sony recently allowed Valve to integrate Steam within the PlayStation Network. It also has granted CCP Games the chance to unite customers with the upcoming PS3 shooter Dust 514, which connects with the PC game Eve Online.

“I think Sony will start to benefit from what it’s doing,” Newell said.
“They’ve done the scary thing and I think it’s up to us as developers to make sure Sony and its customers are rewarded.”

...

Come on, do a Steam + PSN integration + OpenFeint integration so that I can play with Mac, iOS, PS3 and Android at the same time. ^_^

The hard part has been done, and the cost (hardware + software DRM, securing network infrastructure against hackers, ...) have all been incurred. Show me something interesting... or something I have not seen before.

 

[BRiT]

It also make it less easy to legally watch the bits. I have two displays on my office pc, a main 30" that supports hdcp and a secondary 24" that does not support hdpc. When I try to play a blu-ray movie (either from disc or from a legal rip) it displays fine on the 30" but only comes up black on the 24". Really irritating since sometimes it would be nice to just have a movie playing on the second screen while I work. I'm using slingboxhd now to play movies from the directv dvr's in our house on the 24" display since that works, but it would be nice if the blu-ray/hdcp people would be kind enough to let me watch the blu-ray movies I paid for on this same display.

That is exactly one of the reasons I and many others picked up AnyDVD HD or similar software that circumvents the HDCP limitations. In my case it was multi-monitor Dell 2405 FPs. I'd have this same limitation on my current setup, Dell 2405 FP and a Panasonic 54" Plasma. The plasma has HDMI with HDCP but because of the dual-screen nature if I'm not running the circumvention software it pitches major fits.

Also, as it stands now HDCP is completely worthless because of the numerous ways around it and the fundamental flaws in the creation of the magic tokens. Hardcore commercial piraters merely need to generate their own HDCP token(s) on their electronic recording devices to remain several steps ahead of the industry.

 

[joker454]

Sure it won't please everyone, but they need to take care of the contents industry's concerns first. Otherwise, no one would dare to invest heavily in the early days when piracy was rampant on the net. Once their concerns are addressed, the rest can move ahead. Even if the tech is hacked, the contents folks would have already moved a few steps forward.

Ironically hdcp had the exact opposite effect, at least for me. The whole reason I got into ripping my blu-ray movies initially was due to hcdp because I kept reading how I would not be able to watch my legally purchase hd content in hd because my displayed dared to be > 2 months old at the time. Kind of funny how intents sometimes totally backfire, so in that respect I guess I should be grateful for hdcp since it indirectly led to products like anydvdhd which I heavily rely on now.

That is exactly one of the reasons I and many others picked up AnyDVD HD or similar software that circumvents the HDCP limitations. In my case it was multi-monitor Dell 2405 FPs.

Yeah my 24" is a dell as well. Even my anydvdhd rips don't play on the 24", but i think that's due to the TMT5 playback software I use. It sees my bluray rip folders as actual discs more or less and just plays them, so I guess it looks for hdcp as well. I guess if I just play the single video file in the bluray rip folder directly with another program then it should play ok but I actually never tried that.