Gameplay is King?: What Gameplay improvements can be achieved on the new consoles?

[Shifty Geezer]

I would understand if a developer said to me/us "we could not add gyro controls because it would have costed us "too much" of our budget" but anything else sounds terribly like sour grapes to me.

Look at all the interesting control options that have been around over the past 2 generations of consoles and how so little they've been used. It's not sour grapes - it's a realistic outlook based on precedent.

That's going OT though. This is supposed to be one of those threads where people talk about what could be.

Spoiler

even if it never amounts to anything.

 

[onQ]

Look at all the interesting control options that have been around over the past 2 generations of consoles and how so little they've been used. It's not sour grapes - it's a realistic outlook based on precedent.

That's going OT though. This is supposed to be one of those threads where people talk about what could be.

Spoiler

even if it never amounts to anything.

A lot of different games that used nontraditional controls sold millions on the Wii , NDS,3DS , smartphones & even Kinect.


Devs just have to find the next Nintendogs/ Brain Age/Wii Fit/Just Dance/Dance Central/Angry Bird/Candy Crush / Rock Band / DDR / Guitar Hero / Sing Star & so on.


Right now Sony has the perfect controller for Star Wars game that feature pod racing , shootouts & other types of gameplay. An Olympic game that can have unique ways for you to play every game. Even a fishing game. we haven't had a good fishing game in awhile DS4 is almost perfect for a fishing game when you hold it sideways by one handle & the touchpad is perfect for giving you a just right release when you're casting your line.

This is the standard controller that's giving you all this so it's not that big of a risk making a game that take advantage of these features. A game like The Sims would benefit a lot from all the different control inputs.

 

[SlimJim]

VR using the SharpShooter will be the most immersive shooter in the history of mankind, even if it uses Goldeneye 64 (1997) graphics

 

[zed]

Look at all the interesting control options that have been around over the past 2 generations of consoles and how so little they've been used. It's not sour grapes - it's a realistic outlook based on precedent.

valid observation
VR has huge potential, but we have to see it realized

watched this last night, nice , gfx great for a 1983 game (too good actually I was there in 1983 and no games had these gfx)
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0086014/reference
now thats VR

 

[onQ]

valid observation
VR has huge potential, but we have to see it realized

watched this last night, nice , gfx great for a 1983 game (too good actually I was there in 1983 and no games had these gfx)
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0086014/reference
now thats VR

Picture a VR Star Fox like rail shooter for Project Morpheus using the DS4 motion sensing to aim & shoot while you are looking around in full 3D using head tracking.


That one game would make the price of the PS4 & Project Morpheus worth it.


As I thought of that Project Morpheus just became something I care about for the 1st time & I think that would probably be one of Gaming's best moments.

 

[onQ]

I'm going to go out on a limb & say the teaser videos from Sony is Until Dawn & it's going to take advantage of the features of the DualShock 4 or Project Morpheus.

 

[onQ]

Tearaway Unfolded using the DS4 for now gameplay ideas.

Hopefully this will inspire other devs to come up with new ways to us the DS4 & also Wii U Pad.

LBP 3 will also use the touch pad for creating.

 

[onQ]

Pretty much what I said the day before the re-reveal. Basically using the DS4 as a PlayStation Move controller & also using the touchpad.

 

[onQ]

Has there been any information about how GTA 5 will be using Motion controls on the PS4?

http://www.vg247.com/2014/10/08/gta-5-is-50gb-and-supports-playstation-move-on-ps4-report/

 

[onQ]

Sound like they are saying that the gyro controls are better than the right analog stick for looking around because you can look around with the speed you would in a PC game (like using a mouse).

 

[Deleted member 11852]

I forgot this thread existed. An opportune time to kickstart discussion again given we've since seen Shadow of Mordor appear with a hugely cutback Nemesis system on old gen and Dying Light was cancelled on old gen consoles.

Two clear examples where current gen console's increased specifications have brought things to the table.

 

[FarticusMaximus]

AI and physics are what I'd like to see improve. Not with meagre scraps of power left over from frame rendering, but as a priority, as pillars of game design rather than afterthoughts.

Pretty pictures do not immerse me in game worlds. A photorealistic but completely static game world with stupid predictable AI does not interest me one bit. I can flip open my phone/tablet and browse pretty images or go on virtual tours all day long. I don't want to. I want to interact with my games and have them interact with me.

A game with interesting physics interactions (not necessarily realistic - exaggerated/wacky physics are perfectly valid choices) and wiley, challenging AI gets my attention and holds it. This also provides opportunities for emergent gameplay, and makes for replayability.

There are many games I just can't be bothered to play anymore due to dumb AI. CoD campaigns for example. Cod controls great, runs fluidly, and has mostly decent encounter design. The possibilities for challenging, dynamic, unpredictable combat are huge in those games. However most of the time for any given scenario I can sit in one place and play whack-a-mole with AI that can do little more than pop up from cover and occasionally shift position. Yaaaaaawn.

Halo does AI better than any shooter out there. Enemies are clever, not just individually but in groups. Enemy command structure can also be exploited by the player. Take out a squad leader and grunts panic and will retreat and regroup. There have been papers written on Halo's group AI. It's one of the few games where higher difficulty levels do not simply mean more enemies or higher hitpoint enemies. A legendary difficulty Elite is hard to kill not just because of how strong it is but because of how well it manages it's recharging shield by using cover, and how well it can pressure you when it knows your shields are low.

Another standout example of AI in games recently is Forza with the Drivatar system. Racing against real people is unpredictable and fun because of a clash of driving styles. Many racing game career events simply have a procession of cars plodding along the racing line with little variance and little to no awareness of other racers.
With the Drivatar system the basic models of AI are modified with real peoples racing telemetry, imparting 'flavor' on AI opponents. It's great seeing AI opponents having little duels, or totally ballsing up their braking zones like the real owner of the Drivatar (me in the case of braking zones!) would.

Battlefield:Bad Company achieved unpredictability and replayability through a great physics engine. Having destructible environments, even in BFBC's slightly limited fashion, multiplied the number of ways each encounter could be approached. Red Faction:Guerilla did a great job of destructibility too and produced loads of surprising and fun encounters. Completely unscripted and unique for each player.

Screenshot warriors/pixel counters/digital foundry and it's braying hordes of 'number enthusiasts' are why the games industry is in such a rut IMO. AAA developers, those teams with the resources to really push gameplay systems, oftentimes cannot do so due to the ridiculous backlash that comes with any game that isn't putting every last drop of horsepower into resolution and image processing. It's saddening.

I hope that cloud computing really takes off, partly because it really isn't applicable to generating billions of shiny shiny pixels so might actually get put to good use. AI and physics will benefit hugely from cloud computing. Hopefully Crackdown will be a good example of large-scale cloud enhanced physics.

 

[Prophecy2k]

Another standout example of AI in games recently is Forza with the Drivatar system. Racing against real people is unpredictable and fun because of a clash of driving styles. Many racing game career events simply have a procession of cars plodding along the racing line with little variance and little to no awareness of other racers.
With the Drivatar system the basic models of AI are modified with real peoples racing telemetry, imparting 'flavor' on AI opponents. It's great seeing AI opponents having little duels, or totally ballsing up their braking zones like the real owner of the Drivatar (me in the case of braking zones!) would.

I find this hilarious considering that practically all the reviewers trashed the Drivatars for being dumber than normal scripted driver AIs from other games. Hardly a standout example in my mind. Sure a good idea in theory, but didn't work in practice.

Battlefield:Bad Company achieved unpredictability and replayability through a great physics engine. Having destructible environments, even in BFBC's slightly limited fashion, multiplied the number of ways each encounter could be approached. Red Faction:Guerilla did a great job of destructibility too and produced loads of surprising and fun encounters. Completely unscripted and unique for each player.

BF:BC's physics weren't anything to write home about at all. The destruction/damage system was all pre-rigged and 100% predictable. Not sure how that created replayability and unpredictability, when it's effects were mostly aesthetic and didn't impact the gameplay in any meaningful way... and I played both Bad Company games and really enjoyed them.

Red Faction on the other hand was SUPERB, and exactly the example of what you're saying you want to see more of (me too in fact)! I was honestly hoping that more devs and publishers were gonna ape the GeoMod destruction system after RF:G did so well. But it never happened

Now that Volition is dead, and THQ gave up the ghost, and the RF sequel to guerilla was an aborted spawn of satan from the pit of hell, we'll likely never see another AAA game with that kind of environmental interactivity again ... that's saddening.

I hope that cloud computing really takes off, partly because it really isn't applicable to generating billions of shiny shiny pixels so might actually get put to good use. AI and physics will benefit hugely from cloud computing. Hopefully Crackdown will be a good example of large-scale cloud enhanced physics.

I flippin well hope not!!! My crappy unstable internet would cause every gaming session to become an exercise in frustration with constant drop-outs from the game and "error: cannot connect to server" messages. Don't want more games like Destiny that constantly need to be tethered to some external network. Screw that right off.

 

[FarticusMaximus]

I find this hilarious considering that practically all the reviewers trashed the Drivatars for being dumber than normal scripted driver AIs from other games. Hardly a standout example in my mind. Sure a good idea in theory, but didn't work in practice.

Actually it works very well in practice. May I ask how often you play Forza 5? I've been playing it since launch, and still play it regularly. When you spend time with it you get to see Drivatar behaviour change over time as Drivatars are continually being updated with driver telemetry.

I've watched friends Drivatars go from crashy sandtrap lovers to smooth apex-clippers as their owners driving improves. Grid positions of a race lobby of real drivers compared to their Drivatars usually end up being scarily close.

Reviewers got to experience what was effectively 'blank' Drivatars. Hardly representative of what they become.

Would you care to give an example of what in your experience you consider good race game AI, and why?

I flippin well hope not!!! My crappy unstable internet would cause every gaming session to become an exercise in frustration with constant drop-outs from the game and "error: cannot connect to server" messages. Don't want more games like Destiny that constantly need to be tethered to some external network. Screw that right off.

You hope that a potentially massively beneficial gaming technology does not take off, just because you don't like games that require an internet connection?

Could you not just, you know, play offline games?

 

[Prophecy2k]

Actually it works very well in practice. May I ask how often you play Forza 5? I've been playing it since launch, and still play it regularly. When you spend time with it you get to see Drivatar behaviour change over time as Drivatars are continually being updated with driver telemetry.

I've watched friends Drivatars go from crashy sandtrap lovers to smooth apex-clippers as their owners driving improves. Grid positions of a race lobby of real drivers compared to their Drivatars usually end up being scarily close.

Reviewers got to experience what was effectively 'blank' Drivatars. Hardly representative of what they become.

Would you care to give an example of what in your experience you consider good race game AI, and why?

Well that's fair enough. I've never personally played the game. I was just going off what I'd read about it in reviews. I suppose given the way the system works it stands to reason that the reviewer's experiences weren't particularly reflective of the eventual user experience. Your explanation was helpful ;-)

You hope that a potentially massively beneficial gaming technology does not take off, just because you don't like games that require an internet connection?

Could you not just, you know, play offline games?

It's not just about what I don't like. If you'd excercised a modicum of critical thinking when reading my post you'd have realised that I was making a point about the unreliability of people's home internet connections, which obviously isn't an issue exclusive to my household.

I simply don't see cloud computing as such a massive benefit to gaming as it currently stands, especially given the connectivity requirements. If the cloud-based compute elements of games require CONSTANT conectivity to an outside server then that is BAD. It means that for a large proportion of gamers their is a significantly higher potential for disruption in their gaming sessions due to elements outside of their control.

Cloud-based compute elements need to be kept to mere enhancements to simpler systems that can also be computed locally in case of internet connection failure or a user choosing to play offline. Anything requiring a constant internet connection I am not terribly interested in. So yeah by all means let the technology take off, but I don't care for it's use in anything more than a minority of games.

Outside of simple driving game AI, what is this massive potential that you see anyway? I can't really think of many ways it can meaningfully benefit games as a whole?

 

[Deleted member 11852]

Picture a VR Star Fox like rail shooter for Project Morpheus using the DS4 motion sensing to aim & shoot while you are looking around in full 3D using head tracking.

I don't know if we'll see a lot of Morpheus games using the DS4 because it's really a two anded device. I think Move will get most support as it frees your arms. And more importantly, allows them to work seamlessly and independently.

 

[onQ]

I forgot this thread existed. An opportune time to kickstart discussion again given we've since seen Shadow of Mordor appear with a hugely cutback Nemesis system on old gen and Dying Light was cancelled on old gen consoles.

Two clear examples where current gen console's increased specifications have brought things to the table.

Also we have Mario Maker , Splatoon , Tearaway unfolded, Until Dawn & so on making use of the new controls. I'm sure just about ever Wii U game is taking advantage of the Wii U pad but Splatoon & Mario Maker are the two that caught my attention.

 

[onQ]

I don't know if we'll see a lot of Morpheus games using the DS4 because it's really a two anded device. I think Move will get most support as it frees your arms. And more importantly, allows them to work seamlessly and independently.

Have you watched this video? it's like all the stuff I was talking about in video form.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

Have you watched this video? it's like all the stuff I was talking about in video form.

This does look like it may work for a ship but for a person as an actual avatar in an environment I think all (if not all, most) of the demos use Move specifically because each hand can hold a Move controller and your actual arm movements translate 1:1 into the game environment. Why click the touchpad to open a door when you can just extent your arm to push the door open?

Where your avatar in an environment is a person, using a DS4 seems like a choice that introduces further detachment rather more being more immersive. The Heist demo, shown at this year's GDC, shows how it can be done so well with Move.

 

[FarticusMaximus]

Well that's fair enough. I've never personally played the game. I was just going off what I'd read about it in reviews. I suppose given the way the system works it stands to reason that the reviewer's experiences weren't particularly reflective of the eventual user experience.

I guess it's not a dissimilar situation to reviewing games with online components before launch day, or reviewing games pre-day 1 patch. A situation that a lot of review sites seem to be acknowledging and fixing.

It's not just about what I don't like. If you'd excercised a modicum of critical thinking when reading my post you'd have realised that I was making a point about the unreliability of people's home internet connections, which obviously isn't an issue exclusive to my household.

If there were not millions upon millions of people currently playing games that require a constant internet connection then I might take your argument seriously. As it stands your initial response can be paraphrased as 'I hope this tech does not take off as I, and some others, cannot take advantage of it'.

I can't imagine the flood of bile that would cover this page if I suggested that developers should not implement ultra settings for PC games because my PC is old and weak. To complete the analogy I'd mention that Steam surveys say that the majority of PC gamers have rigs that are not capable of running games at ultra settings so the problem is not exclusive to my household.

Anything requiring a constant internet connection I am not terribly interested in. So yeah by all means let the technology take off, but I don't care for it's use in anything more than a minority of games.

Now that's a perfectly reasonable response. I am confident that should cloud compute take off you will still be catered for amply with fully offline games. Cloud compute is just an extension of dedicated servers and will cost money to maintain, so the scale of adoption of the tech will naturally depend on potential revenue.

Outside of simple driving game AI, what is this massive potential that you see anyway? I can't really think of many ways it can meaningfully benefit games as a whole?

Physics calculations, world state, AI. Basically anything that isn't latency sensitive and can be compressed into a reasonable sized data stream. There's a whole thread on the subject.