Gamedaily: 3rd Party Sales Numbers*

Whatever Nintendo did until now matters every bit because they reveal the true strength of their strategy. You can choose to look at snapshot, but as a strategy-in-motion, Nintendo is fearsome and it seems to be working for 3rd party too. It doesn't matter what 360 is doing because if things stay on course, Nintendo will one day surpass all the numbers and has in fact surpassed quite a few.

The majority of nintendo's core fan base has already purchased a wii. I don't know anyone that was even remotely interested in a nintendo console in the last 2 generations that hasn't picked up a wii. I would say that nintendo is long past the core gamer market.

You'll have to show more proofs. I have a GameCube but I don't have a Wii yet. I am just waiting for my kid to grow up more so he doesn't fling that stick around too much. Nintendo is selling into the mass market, there will always be a new child, a new father, a new yoga gal, a new guy who needs some casual exercise, etc. You don't have to be a gamer to be a Wii customer. They seem to be playing some games too. That's great for the industry because it changes the traditional gamer image, and bring new customers to the developers (If the devs choose to take up the challenge, that is).
 
Third party sales of a 20 month Wii versus a 20 month 360 shows exactly what?

Other than for academic and hypothecitical discussions, those figures don't really mean much in terms of market reality. A market reality where a 20 month old Wii competes against a 33 month old 360.

Unless you are a dev or a gamer whos strictly limited to either buying/deving for the Wii now or going back in time to this time last year to buy/dev for a 360 then these figure are useless. LOL. From a market reality perspective lining up launches of a 360 and a Wii is about as relevant as dividing the number of total 360 software sales by the number of PS3 (not a typo) console sold.

The perception of the 360 of being a better third party platform isn't built on just total sales of third party software. Its built on quality and quantity. We've seen a lot of sales who represent definitive third party titles that sold well and were also seen as good/great titles on the 360. Total third party volumes are figures that can be padded with sales with a bunch of garbage titles and are the least useful in terms of creating or destroying perceptions of the gaming market, which aren't built upon comparing sales figures.

If Nintendo truly wants to been as a competitive platform in relations to third party games, then the Wii is going to have to push out third party titles in the quality and quantity that can be found of the 360. The need to for some to use comparsion figures that depend on lining up launch dates only goes to show how far the Wii is from that reality.
 
Whatever Nintendo did until now matters every bit because they reveal the true strength of their strategy. You can choose to look at snapshot, but as a strategy-in-motion, Nintendo is fearsome and it seems to be working for 3rd party too. It doesn't matter what 360 is doing because if things stay on course, Nintendo will one day surpass all the numbers and has in fact surpassed quite a few.

Ifs..... In 2004/2005 you replaced Nintendo with Sony you'd see how foolish this line of reason is.

Yes there will allways be more kids , but each day there are more core gamers also. Eventualy Nintendo will hit a wall with units sold. At some point wii fit 5 and wii sports 18 will wear out on people and it will no longer be popular. However we've seen for generations of hardware that the core gamer is allways there. Even during the great video game crash of the early 80s the core gamers were ready to pick up the nes system.


dobwal - Yup your right and add to the fact that the 360 and ps3 have other revenue streams for the games in the form of DLC and themes and gamer pics and it makes things alot diffrent. How many units of paid third party dlc did the xbox 360 move in this year or in its first 20 months. I'm sure that will paint another picture.
 
dobwal - Yup your right and add to the fact that the 360 and ps3 have other revenue streams for the games in the form of DLC and themes and gamer pics and it makes things alot diffrent. How many units of paid third party dlc did the xbox 360 move in this year or in its first 20 months. I'm sure that will paint another picture.

You don't need to line up the launch dates, all you have to do is look at the circumstance as they exist right now to highlight the strength of the 360's DLC as thats what a 20+ month old Wii competes against not DLC figures from a year ago. Reality wise, the 360 is a beast when it comes to selling quality third party titles in comparsion to the Wii.
 
Ifs..... In 2004/2005 you replaced Nintendo with Sony you'd see how foolish this line of reason is.

Why would I replace Nintendo with Sony when their strategies are different ?

Yes there will allways be more kids , but each day there are more core gamers also. Eventualy Nintendo will hit a wall with units sold. At some point wii fit 5 and wii sports 18 will wear out on people and it will no longer be popular. However we've seen for generations of hardware that the core gamer is allways there. Even during the great video game crash of the early 80s the core gamers were ready to pick up the nes system.

What you said above applies to MS and Sony too. People do get tired of gaming. There was even some report on declining core gamer market (being masked by uprising casual market). The thing is there are more non-gamers in this world than gamers. Nintendo is converting the former into the latter better than MS and Sony at the moment.

Rest assured that Nintendo won't be depending on only WiiFit and WiiSport to sell even though they work very well today. They are just milking the rewards and pacing themselves. Where 3rd party developers are concerned, figuring out how they can appeal to the relevant crowd is key and is a learning process. In the mean time, the overall 3rd party title unit sales is close to 360.

This is only the tip of the iceberg because it's a new market. Should the developers figured out the casual gamer dynamics like Nintendo did, their numbers will go up too.

dobwal said:
The perception of the 360 of being a better third party platform isn't built on just total sales of third party software. Its built on quality and quantity. We've seen a lot of sales who represent definitive third party titles that sold well and were also seen as good/great titles on the 360. Total third party volumes are figures that can be padded with sales with a bunch of garbage titles and are the least useful in terms of creating or destroying perceptions of the gaming market, which aren't built upon comparing sales figures.

Sure, but it's a learning process now. As EA's boss pointed out, one of his mistakes was not to bet on Wii. If the devs devote enough and potentially new talent to the market, they should be able to sell hi-quality titles to Wii customers.

If Nintendo truly wants to been as a competitive platform in relations to third party games, then the Wii is going to have to push out third party titles in the quality and quantity that can be found of the 360. The need to for some to use comparsion figures that depend on lining up launch dates only goes to show how far the Wii is from that reality.

Sure, let's wait and see. Traditionally, when there are new opportunities on the table, someone will leap at it.
 
Why would I replace Nintendo with Sony when their strategies are different ?

I was pointing out that when you assume you make an ass out of u and me.(Mods please note this is an old saying and is not meant as an insult at anyone). If we went back in time and said as many did that Sony would dominate again because of this and that we would see that a butterfly flapping its wings can change everything.

we don't know how long the wii or any of the systems will continue selilng. The xbox can hit 25m units sold and then die .
What you said above applies to MS and Sony too. People do get tired of gaming. There was even some report on declining core gamer market (being masked by uprising casual market). The thing is there are more non-gamers in this world than gamers. Nintendo is converting the former into the latter better than MS and Sony at the moment

Care to point that article or study out. All I see are reports of the average gamer's age is going up which is true as my friends and I are 27 and play a ton of games. I actually have more money to spend on games than I did at 21. Next generation I will have even more income to spend on it.

The question is who will buy the games and who will stick around. The core gamers or the casual gamers. We know core gamers are there generation in and generation out. The casuals are another question. Look at sony , last generation they had a ton of casual gamers. Where are those casual gamers now ? Will they come back or are they on the new fad that is wii.

Rest assured that Nintendo won't be depending on only WiiFit and WiiSport to sell even though they work very well today. They are just milking the rewards and pacing themselves. Where 3rd party developers are concerned, figuring out how they can appeal to the relevant crowd is key and is a learning process. In the mean time, the overall 3rd party title unit sales is close to 360.
Why , nintendo has rested on the same franchises for many generations. They had zelda's , mario's , smash brothers and mario karts... oh and don't forget metriod. This generation they brought those back and have introduced some new ones. We already see wii sports getting a repeat and i'm sure wii fit will also. what else are they going to introduce that will sell well. Look at the brain age games. The first one sold great and the second one followed , but the third one in japan languished and other games in the same vein have also languished.
 
Why would I replace Nintendo with Sony when their strategies are different ?

What you said above applies to MS and Sony too. People do get tired of gaming. There was even some report on declining core gamer market (being masked by uprising casual market). The thing is there are more non-gamers in this world than gamers. Nintendo is converting the former into the latter better than MS and Sony at the moment.

The core gaming market isn't declining unless we've had a bigger market of $350-$600 consoles then previously thought and that once tapped is shown to be smaller than previous generation. The market as a whole is showing growth with the first through third place console outpacing its counterpart (placement not manufacturer) from last generation and at a much higher price tag.

Rest assured that Nintendo won't be depending on only WiiFit and WiiSport to sell even though they work very well today. They are just milking the rewards and pacing themselves. Where 3rd party developers are concerned, figuring out how they can appeal to the relevant crowd is key and is a learning process. In the mean time, the overall 3rd party title unit sales is close to 360.

This is only the tip of the iceberg because it's a new market. Should the developers figured out the casual gamer dynamics like Nintendo did, their numbers will go up too.

Sure, but it's a learning process now. As EA's boss pointed out, one of his mistakes was not to bet on Wii. If the devs devote enough and potentially new talent to the market, they should be able to sell hi-quality titles to Wii customers.

Even if EA concentrated on the Wii from the outset, it would have not change EA current predicament even if thats what he wants his shareholders to believe. Show me how Activision's prosperity is based on concentrating its effort on the Wii. It isn't, it based on a highly viable IPs namely WOW and Guitar Hero, the biggest PC MMORPG and biggest console franchise this generation. If EA couldn't prosper in the midst of a highly viable third party enviroment of the PS360, what makes you think that could have maintain success concentrating on the Wii, where only Nintendo published titles have had success in dominating top ten sales list worldwide.

Nintendo's success on the Wii is highly dependent on strategy of game development that has existed at Nintendo for decades. The type of games that Nintendo has put on the Wii is of the same cloth that Nintendo has been putting on its consoles and handhelds since NES days. You're not going to find it easy to replicate Nintendo's success on the Wii as a developer just because you see a ton of Wii sales and cheaper development costs. EA's CEO is blowing smoke trying to simplify EA's problem to one simple choice that can be easily reticified by putting titles on the Wii. Nintendo titles would have sold in bunches even if the Wii's userbase was sitting at 12 million and not ~30 million and that based on spending decades catering to your userbase and a understanding thats not going to be replicated in a few short years.

This, I believe, is the one fundamental issue with third party sales on the Wii. You're not going to gain Nintendo like success on the Wii through simple imitation of its development or its marketing of its games.
 
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Actually, that's not really true. Guitar Hero Wii has done very, very well -- certainly better than the PS3 version. And it's no accident that Activision is releasing the next CoD game on all platforms. And it's no accident that the Wii version of Madden 2009 was not a port.
 
Actually, that's not really true. Guitar Hero Wii has done very, very well -- certainly better than the PS3 version. And it's no accident that Activision is releasing the next CoD game on all platforms. And it's no accident that the Wii version of Madden 2009 was not a port.
activision released a call of duty already on the wii based on cod3 and i believe it hit at about the same time. Also isn't the wii at almost 3 times the world wide install base of the ps3. So i don't see why it wouldn't sell more GH sold better. Also even the first Madden on the wii wasn't a port.
 
activision released a call of duty already on the wii based on cod3 and i believe it hit at about the same time. Also isn't the wii at almost 3 times the world wide install base of the ps3. So i don't see why it wouldn't sell more GH sold better. Also even the first Madden on the wii wasn't a port.

CoD3 was a launch title for Wii. There was no CoD title for Wii in 2007 that I know of. And Madden 2009 Wii is actually a different game, with PES-Wii-ish Wii-specific features. From what I can tell, Madden 2008 was the same game as the 360 version, but with fewer features (and Mii support).
 
Actually, that's not really true. Guitar Hero Wii has done very, very well -- certainly better than the PS3 version. And it's no accident that Activision is releasing the next CoD game on all platforms. And it's no accident that the Wii version of Madden 2009 was not a port.

The 360 and PS3 version aren't ports of Guitar Hero Wii and this along with COD going to all platform doesn't demonstrate Activision concentration of Wii but in multplatform titles in general. Furthermore, both Madden 07 and 08 both appear on Wii, so Madden 09 exclusion is not demostrative of a fundamental strategy to focus away from the Wii especially considering that Wii's Madden were lauded for their control schemes and considered the better ports.
 
The head start doesn't matter when looking at sales this year. The wii was for most of the year so far tied in units are in the lead by up to 1m units in NA. Thus it doesn't matter, the reality is that its selling less third party software this year than the xbox 360 is dispite the larget install base.
The numbers from Pachter for this year are only for the US. The Wii didn't pass the 360 install base until June 2008 (source), which should be the last month of available sales from NPD.
For the first half of the year ms hasn't had much of anything to note. However later this year ms will blitz with a ton of first party games and third party games. All of which should sell tons of copies and create excitement for other games. The wii already released its biggest title this year in the form of wii fit and to a lesser extent mario kart and super smash brothers. The 360 also has a price drop.
I would actually see this in favour of the Wii. Third parties in the first half of the year had to go up against SSBB, Mario Kart and Wii Fit. The first two being the biggest GC sellers. The 360 also had GTA IV and other notable third party games.

From Neogaf:
Significant, expensive games released on either platform by third parties in this time frame:

360:

Devil May Cry 4
Battlefield: Bad Company
Army of Two
Burnout Paradise
Turok
Unreal Tournament 3
Condemned 2
Rainbow Six Vegas 2
GRID
Quake Wars
Dark Sector
Dynasty Warriors 6
Grand Theft Auto 4

Wii:

No More Heroes
Boom Blox
The Wii actually has a much more promising third party line-up in the second half of this year (i.e. de blob, Deadly Creatures, Tales of Symphonia, Little King's Story, , Mushroom Men, Dead Rising, Samba De Amigo, SW: Clone Wars and big multiplats like GH:WT) and less competition from Nintendo.
 
I was pointing out that when you assume you make an ass out of u and me.(Mods please note this is an old saying and is not meant as an insult at anyone). If we went back in time and said as many did that Sony would dominate again because of this and that we would see that a butterfly flapping its wings can change everything.

I am afraid you lost me there. Have no idea what you're talking about. Nintendo Wii is a different play from PS3 and Xbox 360. You can't replace one with the other.

we don't know how long the wii or any of the systems will continue selilng. The xbox can hit 25m units sold and then die .

Because MS killed it. And you can say the exact same thing about 360.

Care to point that article or study out. All I see are reports of the average gamer's age is going up which is true as my friends and I are 27 and play a ton of games. I actually have more money to spend on games than I did at 21. Next generation I will have even more income to spend on it.

You should be able to find many reports on casual and core gamers. The report I mentioned is a few months old. It will take some time to dig out. Meanwhile, here's some relevant briefs on casual gaming:
* http://www.casualgaming.biz/news/27643/That-Big-FishNPD-research-in-full
* http://www.gamespot.com/news/6175957.html

The question is who will buy the games and who will stick around. The core gamers or the casual gamers. We know core gamers are there generation in and generation out. The casuals are another question. Look at sony , last generation they had a ton of casual gamers. Where are those casual gamers now ? Will they come back or are they on the new fad that is wii.

They both have their dynamics. In the end, it's what and how many copies of software sold that count. So far both are growing, with the former at a faster pace due to Wii's fast penetration. Over time, some casuals will be converted; some core gamers will churn.

Pointing out Sony lost the casual gamer is premature. The price point and titles are not there yet. In the first place, PS3 and 360 are not targeted at the casual gamers yet (Not in the same league as Wii at least).

Why , nintendo has rested on the same franchises for many generations. They had zelda's , mario's , smash brothers and mario karts... oh and don't forget metriod. This generation they brought those back and have introduced some new ones. We already see wii sports getting a repeat and i'm sure wii fit will also. what else are they going to introduce that will sell well. Look at the brain age games. The first one sold great and the second one followed , but the third one in japan languished and other games in the same vein have also languished.

Isn't the above proof that Nintendo won't just rest on existing titles ? WiiPlay and WiiFit are new right ? Every Final Fantasy is different right ? Brain Age did very well, but in general, titles will fall in and out of fashion, just like platformers and FPS did. It is the same for all consumer products, including core games.
 
The core gaming market isn't declining unless we've had a bigger market of $350-$600 consoles then previously thought and that once tapped is shown to be smaller than previous generation. The market as a whole is showing growth with the first through third place console outpacing its counterpart (placement not manufacturer) from last generation and at a much higher price tag.

Don't look at me. The report concluded that. In reality, the casual gamer market has grown faster due to the success of Wii and iPhone. There are open opportunities there.

Even if EA concentrated on the Wii from the outset, it would have not change EA current predicament even if thats what he wants his shareholders to believe. Show me how Activision's prosperity is based on concentrating its effort on the Wii. It isn't, it based on a highly viable IPs namely WOW and Guitar Hero, the biggest PC MMORPG and biggest console franchise this generation. If EA couldn't prosper in the midst of a highly viable third party enviroment of the PS360, what makes you think that could have maintain success concentrating on the Wii, where only Nintendo published titles have had success in dominating top ten sales list worldwide.

You can't show the prosperity of Wii software using PS3 and Xbox 360 targeted titles. Success/failure in one market does not necessarily carry over to the other market. But you may be able to repurpose existing raw talent (and complement them with new ones)., may be reuse business model and relationships, etc.

Nintendo's success on the Wii is highly dependent on strategy of game development that has existed at Nintendo for decades. The type of games that Nintendo has put on the Wii is of the same cloth that Nintendo has been putting on its consoles and handhelds since NES days. You're not going to find it easy to replicate Nintendo's success on the Wii as a developer just because you see a ton of Wii sales and cheaper development costs. EA's CEO is blowing smoke trying to simplify EA's problem to one simple choice that can be easily reticified by putting titles on the Wii. Nintendo titles would have sold in bunches even if the Wii's userbase was sitting at 12 million and not ~30 million and that based on spending decades catering to your userbase and a understanding thats not going to be replicated in a few short years.

I did not say it will be easy. But I think some of that difficulty is in the mindset. Third party titles can still sell even though they may not be Nintendo mega-hits. Like I said, assuming the numbers loom larger, more and more people, including new developers, will aim for it like all ventures. The potential windfall is there. Some will have half-empty attitude, others will think the glass is half-full.

I don't think EA CEO was simplifying EA's problem, but I think you're simplifying his statement. There are a lot to gain by focusing more on Wii than it is right now.

This, I believe, is the one fundamental issue with third party sales on the Wii. You're not going to gain Nintendo like success on the Wii through simple imitation of its development or its marketing of its games.

Too early to tell. There has been failures, but have you seen any attempt to produce Nintendo-quality games on Wii yet ?
 
The 360 and PS3 version aren't ports of Guitar Hero Wii and this along with COD going to all platform doesn't demonstrate Activision concentration of Wii but in multplatform titles in general. Furthermore, both Madden 07 and 08 both appear on Wii, so Madden 09 exclusion is not demostrative of a fundamental strategy to focus away from the Wii especially considering that Wii's Madden were lauded for their control schemes and considered the better ports.

Certainly, I'm not saying that the Wii is becoming primary platform (nor am I pulling a GAFish 'the Wii is the only future DOOOOOM'), but rather that the Wii is no longer an afterthought, the platform that gets the PS2 ports with waggle. That's a pretty drastic change in publisher strategies, at least for the top two. They wouldn't do this if they didn't think they could make money off the platform.
 
And it's no accident that Activision is releasing the next CoD game on all platforms.

I think the CoD5 Wii version can be explained better by the fact that it is made by Treyarch, who have extensive Gamecube/Wii expertise in-house. Now if Activision "persuade" Infinity Ward to make the NEXT Call of Duty game for the Wii... that would mean something.
 
I think the CoD5 Wii version can be explained better by the fact that it is made by Treyarch, who have extensive Gamecube/Wii expertise in-house. Now if Activision "persuade" Infinity Ward to make the NEXT Call of Duty game for the Wii... that would mean something.

Yeah, that might be true. Well, we're going to find out: this end of year will be very very interesting for industry watchers.
 
Don't look at me. The report concluded that. In reality, the casual gamer market has grown faster due to the success of Wii and iPhone. There are open opportunities there.

The "growth" of the "casual" market has more to do with people affixing the term "casual" to a growing list of hardware and software that has existed for decades without being classified under that misnomer.

The success of the Wii in and of itself is no proof of the growth of the casual market, no more than the lackluster sales of the GC or N64 are proof of the casual market in decline. Look at the top 10-15 selling games on the Wii and its not that different the top 10-15 list of any Nintendo consoles. There is going to be a Mario game, a kart game, a Legend of Zelda and the only thing missing from the Wii list is a Pokemon game.

Even Wii Sports and Wii Play don't stand as excellent evidence that the casual market is growing at a faster rate than the core market since they bundled to hardware. Using that same logic, one can surmise in 1980s that Duck Hunt with its ~23 million in sales made light gun shooting one of the fastest growing genre of NES generation. Even Nintendo brags that the average Wii gamer is a core gamer not a casual gamer.

http://www.pcworld.com/article/140575/average_wii_player_is_age_29_nintendo_says.html

The 360 is considered a core gamer machine but it sells more games through its Live service than game software sold through the iphone. I highly doubt that Live sales are being perpetuated by a bunch of casual gamers. To me, DLC games are spearheading a revival movement and simply reintroducing classic and newer games to gamers, which are attracted to the titles due to nostalgia and not simplicity.

I did not say it will be easy. But I think some of that difficulty is in the mindset. Third party titles can still sell even though they may not be Nintendo mega-hits. Like I said, assuming the numbers loom larger, more and more people, including new developers, will aim for it like all ventures. The potential windfall is there. Some will have half-empty attitude, others will think the glass is half-full.

While the Wii's success is bound to attract developers, the weight of that attraction is also determine by success and if traditional third party titles still maintain the level of success of a GTA4, COD4, MGS4, AC and ~30+ platinum sellers than the Wii's attraction will be counterbalance by the PS360 market which is still bigger in terms of console numbers and much bigger in terms of software sales. Most of the top 20 list of the PS360 is populated by third party titles, this not true for Nintendo. Whats the highest selling third party game for the Wii? GH with about ~2 million in sales? How many third party titles from the 360 and PS3 top that number? Most third party devs will continue to target the PS360 with its resource abundant project because the PS360 represent a market they have dealt with for years. Most will throw resource limited project at the Wii and hope some sort of quirky feature piques the interest of the Wii faithful.

I don't think EA's CEO's simplifying EA's problem, but I think you're simplifying his statement. There are a lot to gain by focusing more on Wii than it is right now.

I not simplifying his statement. His statement was made to indicate that EA's current predicament was due to misjudging the market and not focusing on the Wii. I highly doubt that focus would have alleviated the problems EA is facing now. If EA is having trouble transitioning to the PS360 whos enviroment is not that different from the market EA has traditionaly targeted for years, how would focusing on the Wii been better which present a different market where traditional titles aren't having the easiest time of finding success outside of GH and a few other titles.

Too early to tell. There has been failures, but have you seen any attempt to produce Nintendo-quality games on Wii yet ?

No, but how many third party pubs can pump out quality titles like Nintendo can? Most pub that rival Nintendo in size and # of titles produced depend highly on a few key IPs with a mountain of cheap titles with a portion driven by movie IPs. How many IPs or titles from Nintendo are be looked at as cheap garbage? A far smaller percentage than most other typical devs. Nintendo's mentality has been driven by need to almost exclusively support Nintendo consoles on its lonesome. You're not going to suddenly operate as insanely efficient as Nintendo just because you see the Wii as a hit. Nintendo software has been developed with the mindset to sell a console as well as itself. Most third party software isn't developed with such intention and won't be.
 
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