Well just like in any sport, you could also look at the total of the season when it comes to bad luck, penalties, etc. And even if you look at the race, there were several moments where one different decision from Mercedes would have handed the victory for certain.
I don’t think many other teams than Mercedes felt this was totally unfair.
Indeed. Typically poor referring is often to blame for a team losing or poor decisions etc. but I have a hard time getting over the fact that compared to other sports only Motorsport racing has this type of indirect but necessary catch up logic when someone crashes. The decisions made just exasperated that catchup logic which I still think is not reasonable. The other drivers did call it unfair but it didn’t affect them much.
Unknown Soldier
Veteran
Question. If Mercedes had pulled in Hamilton when the last safety car was called and Hamilton was 3-4 cars behind Verstappen with the laps counting down, do you think Massi would have done the same and allowed the cars between Verstappen and Hamilton to pass? Because I am pretty certain that had Verstappen been in front, no cars would have been allowed to pass or they would have had all the cars pass and Verstappen would have won behind the safety car anyway.
I think the same principle agreed with all teams that the preference was to finish the race with actual racing would have applied.
This race was full of errors on Mercedes part though being too afraid to do anything wrong, so they did nothing, and Red Bull having basically nothing to lose being much slower, so they did everything.
Max had the most wins, the most poles, the most fastest laps etc this season so for many it feels like the fact that Lewis still even had a chance this race, then the way this went was just karma. [emoji6]
In the end it could easily have gone either way, this championship, and that is the biggest win of all. Hopefully things will be just as close this season but then with many more teams and drivers being competitive.
This race was full of errors on Mercedes part though being too afraid to do anything wrong, so they did nothing, and Red Bull having basically nothing to lose being much slower, so they did everything.
Max had the most wins, the most poles, the most fastest laps etc this season so for many it feels like the fact that Lewis still even had a chance this race, then the way this went was just karma. [emoji6]
In the end it could easily have gone either way, this championship, and that is the biggest win of all. Hopefully things will be just as close this season but then with many more teams and drivers being competitive.
Silent_Buddha
Legend
If that were the case, then Masi would still be in charge. It's because enough teams weren't happy about it that the FIA were forced to review it and remove Masi from being in charge.
Regards,
SB
Or it is because Mercedes has a very big input all by itself. We’ve seen this before.
Or is it because of the big-money owners of the F1 brand saw the integrity of the sport that they paid a fuck tonne of money for being brought into question?
Regardless of the realities, from the outside the whole farce looked like the sort of choreographed drama and manufactured climaxes that you'd expect from WTF Wrestling Friday Night Spicy Hot, rather than a serious sport. That's not a good image.
Silent_Buddha
Legend
Not enough to force these kinds of changes, especially since the FIA liked Masi quite a lot.
You don't get the person in charge removed without at least Ferrari (greater pull than Mercedes) and other long time F1 teams involved. If you did, the FIA would face far greater consequences than just Mercedes being unhappy.
Basically if most of the influential F1 teams felt that Masi did a good job in that situation then the FIA wouldn't have done much other than perhaps a token "investigation" which would change nothing. To have the person in charge removed requires more than 1 historically important F1 team threatening to withdraw from F1 behind closed doors.
Regards,
SB
You still think at this point in time after having dominated the sport for a decade Ferrari has bigger pull than Mercedes? If the FIA had to choose between Mercedes leaving or Ferrari leaving, which one do you think they would choose. And more particularly and closely related, which one of those contributes more money in terms of drawing people in who watch and sponsors? Because team Mercedes is basically both Britain and Germany, in that respect.
Silent_Buddha
Legend
Ferrari still pull in larger audiences worldwide than Mercedes.
New global fan survey reveals F1’s most popular team and driver | Formula 1®
In terms of fan popularity (which translates into money spent on F1)
- McLaren (29.5%)
- Red Bull (19.8%)
- Ferrari (17.9%)
- Mercedes (11.9%)
Max Verstappen also happens to be a fan favorite (14.4% of fan votes), which is likely why Masi ruled in favor of rigging the race so that he could win and why he gets to keep his championship.
However, the F1 teams don't like that the rules were broken in order to manufacture a win, so Masi had to go.
It's all about the money.
Regards,
SB
I don’t immediately buy those numbers, as in, that these translate to income and influence.
However, the teams, including Red Bull, don’t like that the rules are so vague and so inconsistency applied. All through the year. Personally, I think that is the main reason why Masi had to go, and I expect this to change.
However, the teams, including Red Bull, don’t like that the rules are so vague and so inconsistency applied. All through the year. Personally, I think that is the main reason why Masi had to go, and I expect this to change.
Agreed, Max and RB are the only teams that could ever fight Mercedes that season. There's nothing to take away from Max and RB on that.
If we assume Masi made the right choice is that it opens up the FIA to integrity issues because teams cannot strategize effectively. It's not about declaring a winner, it's about fair competition and removing randomness from the process. Racing teams want to be in a position where if you made all the right choices and you performed the best, that victory that you imagined it is ensured. In this case, victory was pretty much ensured for Hamilton here provided Hamilton could finish the race, there was no strategy card to be played to change that outcome. The decisions made by Masi allowed strategy changes back into the mix and it put RB into contention to winning again. Horner knew as soon as the crash happened, he asked Max to pit and Hamilton was forced to stay out. As Christian said, they had nothing to lose by doing it, they were going to not win first. So they went for it. Then to push Max up further he pushed Masi to unlap the cars infront, but he did not unlap all of them because the time that takes would have resulted in the race being over sa the pace car crosses the line. So he unlapped only the ones between Max and Hamilton. If he never unlapped the cars, this would have been the fairest. But because that decision was based on Masi's own decision and ruling over the situation, we got this instead.
If they don't hard clarify these issues, no one would want to race next season.
tongue_of_colicab
Veteran
I don't think you understand how F1 works. Mercedes is not only a very big name and at the front of the grid, they also provide nearly half the grid with engines/technical partnerships. That gives Mercedes a lot of power. Basically teams follow their engine supplier when there is an argument about something.
Ferrari is far from the political juggernaut they used to be. Yeah they apparently retain some veto rights and get a bit of extra money but politically they don't have much power. Yes they are popular with the fans but Ferrari needs F1 more than F1 needs Ferrari. What do you think Ferrari earns with all the merchandise they sell?
I think it's a bit stupid to claim masi rigged the race. Apart from some Brits I don't think anybody believes that anyway.
I think given that both Merc and RB tried to dictate what he should do plus that the teams beforehand apparently agreeing finishing the race under green flags was preferably, he made the best out of what always was going to be considered to be the wrong decision by some.
If you look at the whole season Mercedes also benefitted from the SC. This time luck wasn't on their side. Unfortunately for them it happened at the worst possible time.
Masi made a poor (not malicious, IMO) decision under pressure that ultimately gave F1 what it really wanted, which is someone other than Lewis winning the drivers’ title. His failure in his FIA duty ironically led to the preferred outcome for F1. Almost seems a shame if he gets kicked to the curb while F1 reaps the reward of increased audience engagement, though he is an FIA employee.
I’m suprised more hasn’t been made of this pre-race “agreement” to prefer ending the race under green flag. (No s#*@, a race series would prefer to race rather than whatever Spa was. Why would that even have to be said out loud?) That doesn’t help the appearance that the ending was made for TV rather than for sport.
It does seem like another failure of the rules that the only recourse available to Mercedes for Masi making a bad decision on the last lap of a full season would be to void the entire race, rather than to go back to the positions on the second-to-last lap or just after the crash (before people dove in for quick pit stops). You’d think that would be something the FIA should fix, too, along with considering either closing the pits for the first lap of a safety car or adding a time penalty to reduce some of the element of luck.
Also, do the rules cover what would have happened in that race where everyone but Lewis pitted to change tires on the formation lap? If everyone pits, when do the red lights go out?
Anyway, cool and windy conditions for FP and Q. The race is supposed to be calmer and maybe hotter. Merc still bouncy.
A Missed Apex podcast with a former race strategist (Merc and Haas) said that Gasly is apparently good on his front tires, so has an advantage in front-graining races like Monaco and another track that I forgot (Silverstone?). Food for thought if he gets on the podium again. And Carlos Sainz prefers understeer to oversteer, as he likes to use the pedals to help turn the car, per a Beyond the Grid interview.
I’m suprised more hasn’t been made of this pre-race “agreement” to prefer ending the race under green flag. (No s#*@, a race series would prefer to race rather than whatever Spa was. Why would that even have to be said out loud?) That doesn’t help the appearance that the ending was made for TV rather than for sport.
It does seem like another failure of the rules that the only recourse available to Mercedes for Masi making a bad decision on the last lap of a full season would be to void the entire race, rather than to go back to the positions on the second-to-last lap or just after the crash (before people dove in for quick pit stops). You’d think that would be something the FIA should fix, too, along with considering either closing the pits for the first lap of a safety car or adding a time penalty to reduce some of the element of luck.
Also, do the rules cover what would have happened in that race where everyone but Lewis pitted to change tires on the formation lap? If everyone pits, when do the red lights go out?
Anyway, cool and windy conditions for FP and Q. The race is supposed to be calmer and maybe hotter. Merc still bouncy.
A Missed Apex podcast with a former race strategist (Merc and Haas) said that Gasly is apparently good on his front tires, so has an advantage in front-graining races like Monaco and another track that I forgot (Silverstone?). Food for thought if he gets on the podium again. And Carlos Sainz prefers understeer to oversteer, as he likes to use the pedals to help turn the car, per a Beyond the Grid interview.
Yesterday Lewis said Merc was 0.9s off RB and 0.3-0.4s off Ferrari.
Today, a Haas outqualified a Mercedes. I repeat, a Haas has outqualified a Merc. Magnussen doing alright a couple weeks in. Bottas right behind Hamilton. Yes, Russell made a mistake on the first corner of his last lap, but Bottas’ testing hasn’t exactly been smooth sailing.
Ferrari looks legit! RB may be best positioned to win another driver’s title as they have a clear #1 in Max, whereas LeClerc and Sainz are really close. McLaren looks on the back foot. Williams and Aston need work. Alpine looks okay.
The top ten has four Ferrari engines, three Honda, two Merc, and one Alpine.
There were some hydraulic issues at Haas and AT, so tomorrow’s race seems a good bet to see some retirements.
There were no race director notes specifying which corners would have track limits enforced, presumably in keeping with a new philosophy of respecting the white lines for the whole track. Several drivers had times deleted for exceeding track limits, though it seemed like Perez got away with running wide in Q1 or Q2.
I don’t know what FP3 showed in terms of long run pace or preferred tires, but Martin Brundle thinks the race may be a two stopper.
The starting top ten:
LeClerc
Verstappen
Sainz
Perez
Hamilton
Bottas
Magnussen
Alonso
Russell
Gasly
Also, the FIA finally released the official report on Abu Dhabi, saying there was “good faith” “human error” in interpreting the rules: https://www.bbc.com/sport/formula1/60807766
Today, a Haas outqualified a Mercedes. I repeat, a Haas has outqualified a Merc. Magnussen doing alright a couple weeks in. Bottas right behind Hamilton. Yes, Russell made a mistake on the first corner of his last lap, but Bottas’ testing hasn’t exactly been smooth sailing.
Ferrari looks legit! RB may be best positioned to win another driver’s title as they have a clear #1 in Max, whereas LeClerc and Sainz are really close. McLaren looks on the back foot. Williams and Aston need work. Alpine looks okay.
The top ten has four Ferrari engines, three Honda, two Merc, and one Alpine.
There were some hydraulic issues at Haas and AT, so tomorrow’s race seems a good bet to see some retirements.
There were no race director notes specifying which corners would have track limits enforced, presumably in keeping with a new philosophy of respecting the white lines for the whole track. Several drivers had times deleted for exceeding track limits, though it seemed like Perez got away with running wide in Q1 or Q2.
I don’t know what FP3 showed in terms of long run pace or preferred tires, but Martin Brundle thinks the race may be a two stopper.
The starting top ten:
LeClerc
Verstappen
Sainz
Perez
Hamilton
Bottas
Magnussen
Alonso
Russell
Gasly
Also, the FIA finally released the official report on Abu Dhabi, saying there was “good faith” “human error” in interpreting the rules: https://www.bbc.com/sport/formula1/60807766
Magnussen!!!!
Forgot to say that Merc seems to have fixed their porpoising. It was present in FP but I didn’t see it in Q.
ESPN seems to have added Ted’s Notebook to their Sky Sports coverage. (Skip the first 7m30s if you don’t care about Ted introducing himself to said audience.)
ESPN seems to have added Ted’s Notebook to their Sky Sports coverage. (Skip the first 7m30s if you don’t care about Ted introducing himself to said audience.)
