Formula 1 - 2010 Season

[Kaotik]

Problem with this line of argument is that it's like listening to Man U, Arsenal, Chelsea and Liverpool fans saying that the other teams in the Premier League just get in the way of their teams inevitable march to the title.

Well, how interesting would the Premier League be with just those four teams?

It's somewhat different case, the lesser teams can still have "fair games" and score points against each other, while in F1 only the first 8 (or did they change that this season?) score points

 

[Bludd]

It's somewhat different case, the lesser teams can still have "fair games" and score points against each other, while in F1 only the first 8 (or did they change that this season?) score points

10 first.

25-18-15-12-10-8-6-4-2-1

 

[tongue_of_colicab]

First 10 this year I believe. Yes in the football case the lesser teams can score points against each other but it doesnt change the fact its still on a totally different level in terms of quality much like in F1 now.

I dont understand people who complain about the speed of the new teams. Its like their memory doesnt go back more than 5 minutes and they forgot how things were the past 60 years.

For example last year in the Malysian GP the fastest lap time was 1.36.6 (Brawn) and the slowest 1.39.5 (FI). Almost and 3 second difference! And this is from a team that was already on the grid for a long long time. Now people are going totally mad over 5 seconds on a track that is very long. So maybe on a average track it would be 4 seconds or something. Really, explain to me how nobody complains over a 3 second difference but complains over 4 seconds? Like anybody is going to notice that 1 second difference on the track. Get real.

And that is just from last year. If we look at the 2006 bahrein GP we got Schumacher with the fastest quali time of 1.31.4 and Ide and his super aguri with the slowest time of 1.40.3. If I remember right, I never heard anybody saying that SA should get off the track for being 9 seconds slower! That is almost as much as HSR and they never even drivin the car untill today while SA had a car from Honda!

The cars from the new teams can easily improve. They lack in set up and aero so if they start working those things out over the next few races I'm sure they are capable of getting acceptable laptimes. Certainly compared with the backmarkers we used to have.

They are looking to introduce the 107% rule. It can come this year if all teams agree to it, so it is most probably coming next year. I think the new teams need to be given some time. They are far back, but they will also make the biggest strides forward in lap time.

I can't wait for the race tomorrow.

That 107% rule is stupid. The slow cars will still be on the grid during the most dangerous moment, Q1, when everybody wants to go fast. After that they will drop out anyway because they are not fast enough and it doesnt matter during the race because they are at the back of the pack anyway and speed are much lower too because everybody is carrying so much fuel. As for speed during the race, well just look up the laptimes from the past decade and being 3+ seconds off the pace really isnt uncommon. It's only from very recent times that the whole field was relatively close to each other.

 

[Tahir2]

Ahem to prove your point you are using race times from best to worst.

Let us play your game for this years qualifying by picking the most extreme numbers:

1:53.883 Sebestian Vettel Q2 (Fastest)
2.04.904 Karun Chandokh Q1 (Slowest)

About 11 seconds.

Let's wait until tomorrow until we start comparing race times and see how the race evolves for the new teams.

It is a wonder if the decision not to allow the more experienced tenders enter F1 this year was a mistake or not - hang on, yes it was a mistake as we have already lost one team - US F1.

Anyway - much respect to the new teams, I have found new appreciation for that ever lovable Minardi team.

 

[tongue_of_colicab]

Taking HSR as a example is rather dumb given today was the first time they started up their car. It was a shake down, it didnt had anything to do with even trying to get in a decent time. All they wanted to do is drive a few laps. If you look at the teams that could do some testing its not nearly as dramatic.

 

[Tahir2]

Thanks for proving my point - shakedown during qualifying. Excellent. All that talk about safety was hogwash.
Something flies off the car tomorrow because it wasn't ready - the FIA can take the blame - not HRT.

 

[DuckThor Evil]

Problem with this line of argument is that it's like listening to Man U, Arsenal, Chelsea and Liverpool fans saying that the other teams in the Premier League just get in the way of their teams inevitable march to the title.

Well, how interesting would the Premier League be with just those four teams?

More like Manu fans saying that all the other teams are just in the way of their inevitable title!
But seriously in Football a team in the relegation zone can score points against the top four and every season they usually do. How many times does an bottom two team beat Ferrari or Red Bull without mechanical problems?

I dont understand people who complain about the speed of the new teams. Its like their memory doesnt go back more than 5 minutes and they forgot how things were the past 60 years.

For example last year in the Malysian GP the fastest lap time was 1.36.6 (Brawn) and the slowest 1.39.5 (FI). Almost and 3 second difference! And this is from a team that was already on the grid for a long long time. Now people are going totally mad over 5 seconds on a track that is very long. So maybe on a average track it would be 4 seconds or something. Really, explain to me how nobody complains over a 3 second difference but complains over 4 seconds? Like anybody is going to notice that 1 second difference on the track. Get real.

And that is just from last year. If we look at the 2006 bahrein GP we got Schumacher with the fastest quali time of 1.31.4 and Ide and his super aguri with the slowest time of 1.40.3. If I remember right, I never heard anybody saying that SA should get off the track for being 9 seconds slower! That is almost as much as HSR and they never even drivin the car untill today while SA had a car from Honda!

LOL at those comparisons... First of all it's really not the same to compare race lap times to qualifying. The force India cars were racing at the back of the herd fighting constantly for positions. In the qualifying the difference was little more than 2 seconds. The HRT-Cosworth was 10 (TEN) seconds slower. The fastest new team driver was SIX seconds slower than Vettel. In Formula 1, 1 second is a long time, 5 seconds is a decade and 10 seconds is an eternity. HTR's time was much closer to a GP2 car time. Bruno Senna probably thought he was still driving a GP2 car...

Super Aguri's 2006 car was based on an old Arrows 2002 car and the car had a total of 10 laps of pre-season testing. Also Yuji Ide, who was the slower Aguri driver by far, got his super licence cancelled due to his inexperience/crashing...They got the old Honda car for the next season.
I remember lot's of talk about the poor performance of Super Aguri, luckily they were able to pick up their pace a little bit. Let's hope these new teams will do the same.

 

[Bludd]

The slow cars will still be on the grid during the most dangerous moment, Q1, when everybody wants to go fast.

How do you figure? Drivers don't push on all the laps in qualifying. On an out-lap, they make room in-front of themselves so they can have a clean run. They push at the end of the out-lap so that the hot lap is started at maximum velocity. They also warm their tyres and brakes during the out-lap. Then they do their hot lap(s), cars not on hot laps have to jump out of the way to avoid being penalised, and then wind down on the in-lap.

In the race, they start with cold tyres, cold brakes and heavy with fuel. They are also much more together. The first lap is the most dangerous part of a race. Then you have a front-runner having to lap a back-marker. This can be dangerous if either the back-marker or the front-runner is battling for position.

The 107% rule is not stupid, because the most dangerous time in F1 is during a race, when 20+ cars are on the track at the same time, fighting it out.

 

[tongue_of_colicab]

LOL at those comparisons... First of all it's really not the same to compare race lap times to qualifying. The force India cars were racing at the back of the herd fighting constantly for positions. In the qualifying the difference was little more than 2 seconds. The HRT-Cosworth was 10 (TEN) seconds slower. The fastest new team driver was SIX seconds slower than Vettel. In Formula 1, 1 second is a long time, 5 seconds is a decade and 10 seconds is an eternity. HTR's time was much closer to a GP2 car time. Bruno Senna probably thought he was still driving a GP2 car...

Super Aguri's 2006 car was based on an old Arrows 2002 car and the car had a total of 10 laps of pre-season testing. Also Yuji Ide, who was the slower Aguri driver by far, got his super licence cancelled due to his inexperience/crashing...They got the old Honda car for the next season.
I remember lot's of talk about the poor performance of Super Aguri, luckily they were able to pick up their pace a little bit. Let's hope these new teams will do the same.

Yes and thats why I'm talking about 2006 quali times. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Bahrain_Grand_Prix#Qualifying_results

Also its not fair to complain about HTR. The car is build by the same company that does the GP2 cars and do you really believe that with over 200bhp more and way more downforce the HTR really isnt capable of more than it showed in todays quali? Your crazy if you expected them to do a decent lap time when they never drove the car before.

Give the new teams some time. It is easy to compare to how it used to be but than there was still in season testing and teams had time to figure their cars out. Now the new teams had 1 month to do so. Not really suprising to see them go much slower. Just wait till they figure their cars out. If you look at recent years backmarker teams have always easily been 3 seconds off the pace.

If we look at a other long circuit like Spa in 2005 the Jordan was actually more off the pace than the new teams (excluding HRT because today was their shakedown). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_Belgian_Grand_Prix#Qualifying

So really saying the new teams are dead slow, dangerous etc is not being in line with the reality of how F1 has been for a long time just because last season things happend to be relative close.

 

[tongue_of_colicab]

How do you figure? Drivers don't push on all the laps in qualifying. On an out-lap, they make room in-front of themselves so they can have a clean run. They push at the end of the out-lap so that the hot lap is started at maximum velocity. They also warm their tyres and brakes during the out-lap. Then they do their hot lap(s), cars not on hot laps have to jump out of the way to avoid being penalised, and then wind down on the in-lap.

In the race, they start with cold tyres, cold brakes and heavy with fuel. They are also much more together. The first lap is the most dangerous part of a race. Then you have a front-runner having to lap a back-marker. This can be dangerous if either the back-marker or the front-runner is battling for position.

The 107% rule is not stupid, because the most dangerous time in F1 is during a race, when 20+ cars are on the track at the same time, fighting it out.

In quali unless you are on a hot lap you have to get out of the way of the fast cars. This shouldnt be a problem as drivers should be informed if they need to get out of the way.

Race isnt a problem either. The slow teams start on the back anyway so the difference in speed is not going to have any influence on the faster cars. Some goes for overtaking. That is why we have blue flags. It doesnt matter if the backmarkers are fighting or not, blue flag means get out of the way. Really, in that case it doesnt matter if your care is 3 or 5 seconds off the pace of the leader.

The rule is stupid. Its not like being within the 107% rule suddenly makes you 100% safe while being 108% makes you dangerous. Just look at le mans. There you also have different cars with a far larger difference in speed running safely at the same time.

 

[Bludd]

The rule is stupid. Its not like being within the 107% rule suddenly makes you 100% safe while being 108% makes you dangerous. Just look at le mans. There you also have different cars with a far larger difference in speed running safely at the same time.

It's just a point where they put the limit. It could be 108% or 110% but the limit is somewhere. Anyway, you are contradicting yourself. You said qualifying 1 was the most dangerous time and then you said neither qualifying nor the race is dangerous. Make up your mind.

Anyway, only HRT was outside 107% of the pole lap today and they were just 2-3 seconds off. HRT will get there when they get to grips with the car.

 

[Tahir2]

Ominous result - Fernando wins, Ferrari 1 and 2.

I think McLaren and Lewis will be back very strong next race... and I feel sorry for Vettel - if only a little bit.

 

[DuckThor Evil]

The race was quite boring. Kubica made some nice overtakes, but other than not much going on, I almost fell asleep. Other than the start and on some great tracks like Spa, usually the pitstops have been the only place, where something exciting has happened, but that's gone now too. Everybody weighing pretty much the same all the time means even less overtaking and less excitement during the pit stop period. No more fast laps before a pit stop against a car that just pitted, or trying to overtake heavier cars after the stop. Hamilton was also complaining about the difficulties of following a car in fast corners. Well I quess there's still the start and qualifying...

Lotus and Virgin had ok race pace. Pity for Vettel having problems and I would have liked to see whether Alonso could have gotten something going on against him.

 

[wishiknew]

Well that was a wonderful race. There must have been a reason why refueling was reintroduced in 1994.

My wild guess is the lap time difference gained and lost by targeting different setups for 2010 cars as the fuel lightens for every one is probably smaller than any 2009 car at the begining vs end of one stint.

Maybe teams will start on soft and only do 1 pitstop with hard for the rest of the way. Now that would be exciting.

 

[tongue_of_colicab]

Refueling or not is not the reason why races are boring. Its because the cars aerodynamics prevent overtaking. Refueling just makes things even more fake, overtaking only happens when cars dont move. IMO overtaking should happen on the track.

 

[Kaotik]

It's funny, tbh, there's only ONE rule change that has made OCing easier, every single one meant to make it easier made it harder in the end.
The working one was, of course, KERS, which no-one uses anymore due teams agreement

 

[DuckThor Evil]

overtaking only happens when cars dont move. IMO overtaking should happen on the track.

Of course, but that has been rare for a long time and now the rest is gone too. BTW. why did they made the front tires narrower? Sounds really stupid to me, also the new tire rule where you have to start the race with the tires you used in Q3 sucks too.

 

[wishiknew]

I like to reducing the minimum weight back to last year or maybe more. Yea Kers back too. Then I like to see refueling. Remember something about Ferrari started using super fuel which was lighter or more condense long ago and assuming every team does this now, well if it was real then I like the old stuff back. Anything to induce weight/speed difference as how else are the cars suppose to pass.

The homologated rule of not allowing certain car pieces being updated in season gone just for the sake of innovation as you can at least the technical race off the track.

 

[tongue_of_colicab]

It's funny, tbh, there's only ONE rule change that has made OCing easier, every single one meant to make it easier made it harder in the end.
The working one was, of course, KERS, which no-one uses anymore due teams agreement

That only worked because some teams had it. If every team had it the effect would be gone because they all would use it at the same time.

Of course, but that has been rare for a long time and now the rest is gone too. BTW. why did they made the front tires narrower? Sounds really stupid to me, also the new tire rule where you have to start the race with the tires you used in Q3 sucks too.

Last year the front tires had too much grip which made the back slide more. So now the made the tires narrower to make the cars more equally balanced in weight again.

as how else are the cars suppose to pass.

You can change weight etc as much as you want but if aerodynamics produce so much turbilent air that even a couple of hundred meters behind a car you already notice a loss in downforce that is not going to work.

There is only 1 way to make overtaking happen and that is to reduce the aerodynamic influance. Just look at the history and all current formula's that have lots of overtaking. All of them have cars have ''basic'' aero or aero designed to still make overtaking possible.

 

[Kaotik]

That only worked because some teams had it. If every team had it the effect would be gone because they all would use it at the same time.

Not necessarily, assuming the track has few good overtaking points, there would be choices to make on which one to use them at, how long you'd push your button at once etc