Formula 1 - 2009 Season

[Kaotik]

Well, not quite. He pushed a photographer to the ground at the 2008 race at Silverstone.

I wouldn't say it's in anywhere same league, and to be fair, Kimi didn't really do anything wrong, if someone is to blame it's the Ferrari crew not keeping the photographer from getting TOO close.
Sure, photographers are doing their job, but they don't go sticking their cameras right to their visors (with flash on, too) and stand on the drivers gear just before start. According to Kimi's manager the photographer touched Kimi, too, which is definately too close.
This is the best pic of it I could find, but it's not the closest the camera was to Kimi.

 

[Scali]

I must say, F1 has become lots of fun now that the cars are so close together.
A Force India taking pole and finishing second, within 2 seconds of a Ferrari, now that's cool
And ofcourse earlier in the season the Brawns doing so well.
I like how the small teams are so competitive this year, and in a way it's fun to see big names like McLaren struggling to even get into the top 10.
And I'd also like to mention the Red Bull team, they seem to be the most consistent performers this year.

 

[Phil]

I'm actually surprised by the silence in here regarding the start of the race yesterday and the advantage Kimi gained by leaving the track. Brings back a lot of memories to SPA when Hamilton was punished for similar circumstances.

In case it isn't obvious what I'm refering to, here's a video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uaU8aoHwk-g

Apendix "L"

CHAPTER IV - CODE OF DRIVING CONDUCT ON CIRCUITS

c) The race track alone shall be used by the drivers during the
race. Drivers must use the track at all times. For the avoidance of
doubt:
- the white lines defining the track edges are considered to be
part of the track but the kerbs are not, and ;
- a driver will be judged to have left the track if no part of the car
remains in contact with the track.
Should a car leave the track for any reason, and without
prejudice to 2(d) below, the driver may rejoin. However, this may
only be done when it is safe to do so and without gaining any
advantage.

 

[Bludd]

I wouldn't say it's in anywhere same league, and to be fair, Kimi didn't really do anything wrong, if someone is to blame it's the Ferrari crew not keeping the photographer from getting TOO close.
Sure, photographers are doing their job, but they don't go sticking their cameras right to their visors (with flash on, too) and stand on the drivers gear just before start. According to Kimi's manager the photographer touched Kimi, too, which is definately too close.
This is the best pic of it I could find, but it's not the closest the camera was to Kimi.
http://img.mtv3.fi/mn_kuvat/mtv3/etusivu/2008/07/545660.jpg

You are correct that it wasn't in the same league, but it still is something bad that Kimi has done. Remember that race? I think Kimi was annoyed because he knew his car would be crap in the wet (it was, he and Massa spun a lot) and that it made him hot-headed. It's no excuse for pushing a cameraman so that he falls to the ground, but Cahier should have seen Kimi's mood and backed off a bit.

I'm actually surprised by the silence in here regarding the start of the race yesterday and the advantage Kimi gained by leaving the track. Brings back a lot of memories to SPA when Hamilton was punished for similar circumstances.

In case it isn't obvious what I'm refering to, here's a video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uaU8aoHwk-g

You are of course correct, but the FIA generally ignores what happens wrt. driving outside the track on the first lap, or at least on the first corner because there are so many cars fighting for the same spot. I think it is generally accepted that it is allowed if there is nowhere else to go. He was not the only one going out there in the first corner, Jenson and Luca went there too. It is not wholly an advantage running there because you pick up dirt on your tires.

 

[Kaotik]

I'm actually surprised by the silence in here regarding the start of the race yesterday and the advantage Kimi gained by leaving the track. Brings back a lot of memories to SPA when Hamilton was punished for similar circumstances.

In case it isn't obvious what I'm refering to, here's a video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uaU8aoHwk-g

To quote Coulthard, you go there to avoid crashes, not to get advantage, you just get dirt on your tires.

Also, drivers have used it both 2007 and 2008 (2005 and earlier the corner was bit different, and track wider at that point)
2007: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RiFfX4ixLD8
2008: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RzSVxw4TA5E
And no-one even tried to suggest there was something wrong with doing so

The reason Kimi came so fast past those few, was KERS, he would have gotten the same advantage on track, if not more.

Here's Coulthards comments on Barrichellos, Räikkönens, Hamiltons and Buttons start
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pS2sdXx08-Y
And straight to comment about Kimi going wide:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pS2sdXx08-Y#t=1m07s

 

[Phil]

You are of course correct, but the FIA generally ignores what happens wrt. driving outside the track on the first lap, or at least on the first corner because there are so many cars fighting for the same spot. I think it is generally accepted that it is allowed if there is nowhere else to go. He was not the only one going out there in the first corner, Jenson and Luca went there too. It is not wholly an advantage running there because you pick up dirt on your tires.

No argument there, although I would argue that the rule explicitly states what is allowed and not and by that messure, Kimi did return to the track gaining an advantage. I also remember a race not too long ago with very similar circumstances where Hamilton was penalized for going wide in the first corner after race start (although he was quite clearly forced wide by I think Kovaleinen).

I'm not too sure about the disadvantage the dirt causes there either - in theory perhaps, but in Kimi's case, I don't see that holding true, as he did in fact gain a position. If we assume he would have slowed down and not left the track, he would have been midfield and not even close to his starting position.

Is it okay, at race start,

- if the motives are pure and solely for evasive purposes even if a positon or two are gained?
- if the motives are not pure (not for evasive purposes), even if a position or two are gained?

If the former is considered to be ok, how do you draw that line as an outsider (from the view of a stuard), so that the latter doesn't become something we'll see more often in future races?

Actually, I think the best way to tackle this would be to force a drive-through penalty for every "off track" event that results in a gained position.

Also consider, that this rule was introduced after the "Hamilton incident" last year where he overtook Kimi mid-race by going off track and his evasive move to give back his position to Kimi wasn't deemed enough later by the stuarts.

To quote Coulthard, you go there to avoid crashes, not to get advantage, you just get dirt on your tires.

Already answered in reply to Bludd, see above. (if you can't get an advantage - how did Kimi manage to gain 1 or 2 positions?)

Also, drivers have used it both 2007 and 2008 (2005 and earlier the corner was bit different, and track wider at that point)

2007 and 2008 are irrelevant, since the rule I posted are in fact since after 2008, after the Lewis/Kimi incident.

Also, in the video you posted - no position advantage was gained between leaving the track and getting back on.

 

[DuckThor Evil]

Already answered in reply to Bludd, see above. (if you can't get an advantage - how did Kimi manage to gain 1 or 2 positions?)

I think Kers was the main reason he got those positions, if he didn't have it, I think he would have not gotten past Trulli and Kubica. I don't think he gained speed by going out, but he also didn't lose much by going out, so is that getting an advantage. Imo it's borderline.

 

[Kaotik]

Already answered in reply to Bludd, see above. (if you can't get an advantage - how did Kimi manage to gain 1 or 2 positions?)

Due KERS, he would have gained the same speed boost on track, if not more due proper grip
And he would have had to go wide no matter what, if you look the video in the corner, there wasn't room for 1 more car

 

[Phil]

Due KERS, he would have gained the same speed boost on track, if not more due proper grip
And he would have had to go wide no matter what, if you look the video in the corner, there wasn't room for 1 more car

I'm not sure what we're discussing. I'm saying the rules clearly state that no advantage is to be gained when leaving the track and that Kimi, who left the track with no room to go holding position 4 or 5 and entered with higher speed at position 3, gained such an advantage. Due to not being on the track with lots of room, he was also able to use KERS which he would not have been able to do to the same advantage had he not left the track. In fact, had he taken the care to stay on the track, he would have had to break / slow down significantly to avoid any collision with the cars on the inside, which most likely would have killed his race. Are you denying any of this?

One could argue that a car that has left the main track, any impeding or overtaking of cars that have taken the care to stay on line should be penalized.

 

[DuckThor Evil]

One could argue that a car that has left the main track, any impeding or overtaking of cars that have taken the care to stay on line should be penalized.

There simply wasn't enough room for Kimi to turn in and I think that changes things a bit and also the fact that it was the first corner with all the cars in there. Also the advantage he got there is different than the usual chicane cuttings that we see often. He certainly didn't gain anything against Kubica or Fisichella, who got away fine, but Kimi managed to get great speed just after Eau Rouge to get past Kubica. I think there is a fair change that Kimi would have managed to get past some of the cars with the Kers even if he was say sixth after the first lap. He overtook Fisichella really easily after the safety car, and Force India had the highest top speeds at Spa.

 

[DJ12]

Kimi left himself no room to turn in, he had already calculated that he was going off the track before he even entered the corner. His line was such that he was never, ever going to get round the corner staying in the track (even if he slowed to a crawl his turning circle would've taken him to the run off area.

Fair enough if there had been an accident but there wasn't, it was blatant cheating, and to be honest it robbed Force India of their maiden and fully deserved victory.

There was no way Kimi was going to catch the Force India if he was 2 or 3 cars back on the restart.

Well done to Kimi, but Force India were robbed in my opinion.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

IMO, the rule is pretty clear. No position should be gained if a car leaves the track, voluntarily or non-voluntarily. Kimi should be penalized in this case regardless.

If it's true that Kimi himself left no room to to remain on track, that's far more serious. But I'd rather give him the benefit of the doubt that conditions forced him off, in which case he should not have gained a position by going off. Kers or no kers. Rules are rules.

Regards,
SB

 

[tongue_of_colicab]

Kimi left himself no room to turn in, he had already calculated that he was going off the track before he even entered the corner. His line was such that he was never, ever going to get round the corner staying in the track (even if he slowed to a crawl his turning circle would've taken him to the run off area.

Fair enough if there had been an accident but there wasn't, it was blatant cheating, and to be honest it robbed Force India of their maiden and fully deserved victory.

There was no way Kimi was going to catch the Force India if he was 2 or 3 cars back on the restart.

Well done to Kimi, but Force India were robbed in my opinion.

Oh god...

Look. How hard can it be? Its simple. If there isnt any room you can go outside the track and certainly on the first lap and first corner its perfectly accepted as you cant just hit the brakes because that would cause trouble for the people behind you. If Kimi decided to put himself in that position, the only advantage he gained was not having to worry about others crashing into him. The track didnt because shorter like when you cut a chicane and it also isnt faster because you have to travel longer and you pick up dirt.

And what caused Fisi to ''lose'' the race is the safety car. Fisi was a bit faster than Raikonnen all race long and untill the safety car hard a bit of margin on Raikonnen so there would have been a fair chance that Raikonnen wouldnt have been able to catch up. Because of the safetycar he could get right behind Fisi and use the slipstream and KERS to boost past Fisi. Didnt had anything to do with what happend at the first corner.

I always get the idea that you dont want to relevate anything, certainly not Ferrari things.

 

[DJ12]

You really have no idea of what rules are so it's pointless even discussing it with you.

He broke the rules, he had no room because HE LEFT HIMSELF no room as it was his intention to go wide even before the race had started, you can see this from the line he took, he made absolutely no attempt to take the corner correctly.

 

[Bludd]

The rule is clear but the FIA generally ignores it when stuff like that happens in the first few corners when the cars are so close together. If Force India feel they were robbed, they should lodge a complaint.

 

[tongue_of_colicab]

You really have no idea of what rules are so it's pointless even discussing it with you.

He broke the rules, he had no room because HE LEFT HIMSELF no room as it was his intention to go wide even before the race had started, you can see this from the line he took, he made absolutely no attempt to take the corner correctly.

Clearly you are the one that isnt worth discussing with. All you can say its in the rules so they should be punished! or rather, Ferrari did something mclaren got punished for so Ferrari should be punished. You dont even bother reading other people's comments on why its logical (and fair IMO) that the FIA doesnt hand out penalty's in this kind of situations. There are 20 cars all trying to get around the first few corners as fast as possible. By accident or by choice, you are bound to have people that dont have space to go anywhere. Why do you think they put all those run off area's around the track? No to penalise people for using them when there is no room! If they start doing that they might as well but the gravel traps back in. Atleast than you are sure nobody will leave the track and instead just drivers will just opt to trow the car back on the track, even with no space, and take a few others down with him.

Anyway it seems to be beyond your ability to understand the difference between taking the longer way and not gaining a position when there are 19 cars close packed toghether and taking the shorter way and gaining a position while there is just 1 car close to you.

 

[entity279]

He broke the rules, he had no room because HE LEFT HIMSELF no room as it was his intention to go wide even before the race had started, you can see this from the line he took, he made absolutely no attempt to take the corner correctly.

I donno if he had planned it from the start, but I totally agree with the rest, and it's quite obvious from the video.

 

[Phil]

Clearly you are the one that isnt worth discussing with. All you can say its in the rules so they should be punished!

If rules are here to be ignored, what's the point in having them in the first place?

The rule doesn't state that the rule can be ignored in the first corner - it does however state that a car should remain on the track and if it does leave the track (for what ever reasons), no advantage should be gained. I'm honestly suprised that there are even posts defending his motives or justifing this. The rules are simple and in this case clear and cut.

Adding any form of justification to any act isn't really relevant. You may discuss why you think the rule is inappropriate, though that still doesn't change that the rule was indeed broken.

You dont even bother reading other people's comments on why its logical (and fair IMO) that the FIA doesnt hand out penalty's in this kind of situations.

With all due respect, but what you find logical or fair isn't relevant at all. The rules are clear and there have been penalties before just after race start when drivers went into the first corner too enthusiasticly (agin Hamilton, who was pushed wide by Kov end of last year).

As far as I see it - you're the only one still trying to add some form of personal subjectivity to what turns out to be a clear act of breaking the rules.

 

[tongue_of_colicab]

If rules are here to be ignored, what's the point in having them in the first place?

The rule doesn't state that the rule can be ignored in the first corner - it does however state that a car should remain on the track and if it does leave the track (for what ever reasons), no advantage should be gained. I'm honestly suprised that there are even posts defending his motives or justifing this. The rules are simple and in this case clear and cut.

Adding any form of justification to any act isn't really relevant. You may discuss why you think the rule is inappropriate, though that still doesn't change that the rule was indeed broken.

Since when does F1 always follows the exact letter of the rule? Anyway that isnt the point. They dont need a exception for the rule because using common sense the accepted that if you got 20 cars on the first few corners you are bound to have people that dont have space to go anywhere at some point so its OK to use the run off area (did you have think about why they got those area's in the first place? to keep more cars on the track, so it would be stupid to blame someone for using them when needed). If you want to use the rules strickt after the first lap you can give the whole field a drive true penalty after the first lap. Also I understand even less why you should be punished if you leave the track but dont even gain a position.

All the ''punish him'' people can say is: but but but its in the rules!. That is weird to begin with because F1 always bends the rules and secondly there are very good and justified arguments for not giving a penalty on the first lap. Cant you come up with a good argument on why he should be punished?

 

[Phil]

"but common sense bla bla... bla"

The problem with common sense, everyone has a different opinion/definition of it, which is why it doesn't work and rules are there to be enforced. Common-sense may be wanted in cases where there are no specific rules that can be applied to a given situation (example: Spa 2008, Hamilton off track, overtakes Kimi, falls back, then overtakes again). In this very example of Kimi going off track though, there is a rule that is very clear in its definition. No common-sense required.


What you're saying is, Kimi had no choice to leave the track and thus, the advantage he gained, should be overlooked, when in reality, Kimi did have a choice - he just decided to go out, rather than slow down and fall back.