fight night 3 demo for 360 on live

mckmas8808 said:
What they are doing in Natural Motion 2 is new. They are doing certain things there that aren't done today.

We been over natural motion before. Very cool program for generating cutom machin made animation for use in video games, however the system they employ requires knowing what is going to occur, and teh exact way it will occur BEFORE it happens. Then it allows the user to tweak the animations to get the response they want. I completly fail to see how what natural motion is doing can be applied to real time games when a game doesn't know what teh player is going to do before they do it.

And I can't believe that you are going against having better animation next-gen. :/

Don't act like a little kid when you are talking to me. I don't see where you'd get that from. I'm arguing that you have unrealistic expectations, not that we don't need better animation! I'm all for better looking animations in games, however I seem to have a better grasp on on the limitations than you do. I for one don't have unrealistic expectations based on groundless dreams.

Why? Why do you want realistic fighters that look fake? Shouldn't you want realistic fighters that move more realistic?

like I said, stop acting like a kid. Don't try and turn this argument around on me, beucase I'm not the one here that won't listen to reason.

You will be surprise what next-gen games will be able to do.

What a pathetic groundless statement. why mr mckmas8808? what will nextgen animation be like? common. you can't be this stubborn that you won't listen to reason.
 
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scooby_dooby said:
I'm not going against anything. Animation will imrpove gradually, as software improves, just like natural motion which looks amazing but is just another SOFTWARE package. It's juat a tool they can use when creating their animations.

What makes you think XBOX or PS2 dev's couldn't also use this tool?

There is nothing inherent in the power of these next gen consoles that will make animations better. They will get better through evolution, and maybe some developers will invest extra money in their animations to justify the 'next-gen' status of their games, but for the most part you just see small steps

To bad Hideo Kojima disagrees with you.
 
Like I said I could take solid snake and make him dance like a fool, no matter how nice the animations look, that's the nature of a HUMAN CONTROLLED character.
 
I don't think it's an issue of a harware feature that will make animations look better. Having more CPU power at your disposal can always be used to improve things like this, the questions is creating the software to do it and how that software works. It's not a hardware issue with the exception of performance I suppose.

So imo it's a software problem. One that I don't see how these nextgen consoles is going to help solve or how game developers can solve it. It's also an issue of making something playable versus watchable.
 
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Qroach said:
We been over natural motion before. Very cool program for generating cutom machin made animation for use in video games, however the system they employ requires knowing what is going to occur, and teh exact way it will occur BEFORE it happens. Then it allows the user to tweak the animations to get the response they want. I completly fail to see how what natural motion is doing can be applied to real time games when a game doesn't know what teh player is going to do before they do it.

Don't act like a kid? Oh you are teh bully. I'm scared. Watch the clip.
http://www.naturalmotion.com/files/sneakpreview_small.avi

And an SCEA developer says that this is the biggest thing to hit since mo-cap.
http://www.naturalmotion.com/files/sig2004testimonialsS.mpg

Again developers agree with me.
http://www.naturalmotion.com/sneakpreview.avi
 
mckmass8088 said:
Why? Why do you want realistic fighters that look fake? Shouldn't you want realistic fighters that move more realistic?
IT'S BEING CONTROLLED BY A HUMAN WITH A GAME PAD, HOW ON EARTH IS IT GOING TO MOVE REALISTIC WITH "Tap, Tap, Forward, Punch, Punch" or someone button mashing? ANIMATION CAN ONLY BE AS REALISTIC AS THE PERSON CONTROLLING IT. That's why cutscenes look so much better, because no one is controlling it with a game pad!


Geez. All day you three have been bicker bicker bicker :p

Anyway, what mckmass is talking about is using physics based skeleton motion to simulate natural motion the way it actually works. You have a skeleton of interconnecting limbs and the forces you apply on limbs affect the position and forces of other limbs. eg. In existing mocap animation you can record a character in a punch with full upper body movement that connects with the opponent, and another punch that the opponent dodges and the fighter's weighthas to shift to compensate. You can potentially tween between the two. The idea of physical modelling is you don't have key-frames but apply force to limbs with various constraints and parameters like friction. You apply a force to the fighter's arm, and a twisting force to the torso, that if it misses the opponent is resolved into the fighter's weight shifting. And if it connects, the force is transmitted through the opponent's skeleton adjuting his pose. And if it grazes, forces act accordingly. Better still, in an RPG when you wield a shortsword the momentum is such that your attacks would be well controlled and you can manage fast combat, whereas when you equip a two handed hammer the momentum means attacks are slow and pull your character around a bit, depending on their mass etc.

What Naturalmotion seems to be aiming for as far as I can tell is to have human behaviour attached to skeletal physics. eg. If a character has thrown a powerful punch and missed, he needs to adjust his feet to counteract the shift in weight or he'll fall over. The offline Naturalmotion engine has this sort of behaviour I believe, but it's not real-time. Regardless, in something like a two character fighter game I would expect something of this sort to be attainable on next-gen once the algorithms are developed. At the moment we already have ragdolls and other physics simulations in software, and in robotics we have hardware with sensors that can detect motion and compensate by moving limbs. It's a case of moving those robotic techniques into software and refining them, coupling them with a physics model. I'm not going to be surprise if we don't see such techniques in first gen titles, nor second or third gen. Even if the hardware's capable of a million such simulated characters per frame, someone's got to invent an engine that can manage this robustly!
 
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Mck, I agree that better animation is possible and will happen eventually (on both machines).

It's a *developer* issue and it takes TIME to evolve. This is the tip of the iceberg. We finally have a completely jag FREE game with psuedo-realistic graphics.

It's a start.
 
Tap In said:
Mck, I agree that better animation is possible and will happen eventually (on both machines).

It's a *developer* issue and it takes TIME to evolve. This is the tip of the iceberg. We finally have a completely jag FREE game with psuedo-realistic graphics.

It's a start.

Thank you Shifty and Tap In. That was my only point. I'm happy that at least EA has the graphics down pat. I'm just can't wait for them to get the animation just as good as the graphics. I have faith in EA Chicago.
 
mckmas8808 said:
Don't act like a kid? Oh you are teh bully. I'm scared. Watch the clip.
http://www.naturalmotion.com/files/sneakpreview_small.avi

Yeah I'm such a bully. I have watched all the videos for natural motion already and used the program before. thanks.

And an SCEA developer says that this is the biggest thing to hit since mo-cap.
http://www.naturalmotion.com/files/sig2004testimonialsS.mpg

Again developers agree with me.
http://www.naturalmotion.com/sneakpreview.avi

They are using the product to generate animations FILES to use in thier games. Animations files similar to motion capture. however there isn't anyway do do this in realtime, and my point still stands. It's purely a software issue that doens't have much to do with this generation but somehting that will eventually get better, but don't go an have unrealistic expectations that it will suddenly be solved this generation.

I don't see how a system like this can be used in a fighting game either. natural motion requires you to intervene and make constant adjustments to get the desired animation. in real time, I don't see how you could anticipate what ANY users were going to do and compensate for these frequent changes while making the animations look realisitc. Rag doll physics (if you can even call it that) is incredibly simplistic compared to what natural motion is doing.
 
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Shifty Geezer said:
Anyway, what mckmass is talking about is using physics based skeleton motion to simulate natural motion the way it actually works. You have a skeleton of interconnecting limbs and the forces you apply on limbs affect the position and forces of other limbs. eg. In existing mocap animation you can record a character in a punch with full upper body movement that connects with the opponent, and another punch that the opponent dodges and the fighter's weighthas to shift to compensate. You can potentially tween between the two. The idea of physical modelling is you don't have key-frames but apply force to limbs with various constraints and parameters like friction.

Interesting stuff. If you look at the beautiful animation in Shadow of the Colossus, they apparently use a sort of synthesis between tradtional keyframe and physics based reaction/adaption. Obviously its on a much lower scale than something like NaturalMotion in real-time, but perhaps a sign of the future?

One's translation of that watchimpress SotC article had some neat tidbits on it.

---

#7 Inverse kinematics on colossi

The realtime adaptive walking animation system with IK (Inverse Kinematics) is implemented in the colossi's animation.

Colossus AI is represented as reactions to the player entering particular zones. Those reactions are not created by programmers but by designers with a collosi scripting software.
http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/game/...207/3dwa73.htm

When a colossus walks, it calculates the direction and distance of movement from the AI. The basic walking animation is designed by hand, and footsteps are adjusted to the actual landscape by IK. The player character and the horse also get scene feedback by IK.

#8 Physics motion and Add Motion

When the player sticks to a colossus, he is shaken by physics simulation of 2 pendulums for the player's hand-to-bust and waist-to-foot (multiple pendulum simulation). Besides spring pendulum simulation is applied to elastic hands.

However, only with those simulations it became inorganic, so they added human motion designed by hand to the result of this simulation. They call it "Add Motion" system.

But even with those 2 factors some glitchs occured. Then they added IK to them and finally created the natural motion made of 3 synthesized factors which can create actions that both programmers and designers have never seen before. This system is used not only against the player but in the motion of the horse on which the player is riding on.
 
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Qroach said:
however there isn't anyway do do this in realtime, and my point still stands. It's purely a software issue that doens't have much to do with this generation but somehting that will eventually get better, but don't go an have unrealistic expectations that it will suddenly be solved this generation.

I don't see how you could anticipate what ANY users were going to do and compensate for these frequent changes while making the animations look realisitc. Rag doll physics (if you can even call it that) is incredibly simplistic compared to what natural motion is doing.

With extra processing power and better software tools and middlewares that's what next-gen is all about. These things will happen. Do you think the ICO guys wanted PSone animation in their games? No! I expect the animation in there next-gen game to be better than SOTC. Actually they already said that one of the reasons why they worked so hard on the animation for SOTC was to use the reasearch for their PS3 game.
 
mckmas8808 said:
Thank Jesus some people here "get" it. I love you guys. *kisses computer screen*

Now you are just acting like a kid again. From what I see, all the people in this thread that "get it" aren't jumping to conclusions and realize it's not an issue that is instantly fixed by the new consoles. that seems to be the opposite of what you were saying imo.

Anyway, this thread has gone WAY off topic.
 
Qroach said:
Now you are just acting like a kid again. From what I see, all the people in this thread that "get it" aren't jumping to conclusions and realize it's not an issue that is instantly fixed by the new consoles. that seems to be the opposite of what you were saying imo.

No I "get it" I'm actually partially agreeing with you. I know next-gen h/w won't automatically change things. What I'm saying is the tools are there to give developers the ability to upgrade the animations of next-gen games.

And why are you arguing with just me. Shifty, liverkick, and Tap In have all said things that are a keen to what I'm trying to say. Yet you attack me. I'm saying with better h/w and better software/middleware animations will make a jump from what we are used to.
 
mckmas8808 said:
Thank Jesus some people here "get" it. I love you guys. *kisses computer screen*

No you're the one that doesn't "get" it. The animations in FN 3 are fine, it's the players that are controlling it that make it look ackward. No matter how great the animations are in a game the flow can always be disrupted by player input(unlike cutscenes). Say for instance Soul Calibur (I'm not sure if you're familiar with the franchise). There's a character named Ivy that has a sword that turns into a whip. If you were to see an inexperienced player use her and just mash the buttuns, her animations would look jerky, convoluted and just ackward all together. Possibly even making the game look bad. But you get me on the stick (or any other experienced player) and I know all her moves + I know the ins and outs of the game, and she'll have the best animations you've ever seen on a character before. When you look at GAMEPLAY videos of something (especially something like a fighting game where the user has absolute control) you have to take the players input into account when it comes to the animations. And that's what me and scoob have been saying when you try and blast FN 3 for having "ps2" and "psp" animations which is beyond ridiculous.
 
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