fight night 3 demo for 360 on live

[Qroach]

No I "get it" I'm actually partially agreeing with you. I know next-gen h/w won't automatically change things.

Well i'm glad you agree with me and the others on that point.

What I'm saying is the tools are there to give developers the ability to upgrade the animations of next-gen games.

Well that isn't a correct statement. The tools aren't there yet to allow this, which is the entire point I've been making.

And why are you arguing with just me. Shifty, liverkick, and Tap In have all said things that are a keen to what I'm trying to say. Yet you attack me. I'm saying with better h/w and better software/middleware animations will make a jump from what we are used to.

First they are simply using simple logic to come to the same conclusion. From the start of this thread if you set out to say that, you should have said it 10-15 posts back. I wasn't "attacking you" all I said you have unrealistic expectations for next gen games and what is this silver bullet that will make animation in games better. You still failed to point that silver bullet out (natural motion isn't it), and IMO you still have unrealistic expectations. You convienently used the first people that were nice to you as a way out of the argument. Anyway, at least your listening to people again.

 

[ERP]

Don't act like a kid? Oh you are teh bully. I'm scared. Watch the clip.
http://www.naturalmotion.com/files/sneakpreview_small.avi

And an SCEA developer says that this is the biggest thing to hit since mo-cap.
http://www.naturalmotion.com/files/sig2004testimonialsS.mpg

Again developers agree with me.
http://www.naturalmotion.com/sneakpreview.avi

FWIW I've seen this tech, and I know a lot of people are looking at it, it's cool, it has it's issues.

However it doens't really solve the responsiveness issue, real motion requires preparing before a motion, but players expect characters to jump as soon as a button is pressed. The result of that not happening is that characters feel heavy and unresponsive.

You can have excellent quality animation even with existing tech at the cost of controls that feel unresposive, some types of game tolerate that, others don't.

 

[mckmas8808]

First they are simply using simple logic to come to the same conclusion. From the start of this thread if you set out to say that, you should have said it 10-15 posts back. I wasn't "attacking you" all I said you have unrealistic expectations for next gen games and what is this silver bullet that will make animation in games better. You still failed to point that silver bullet out (natural motion isn't it), and IMO you still have unrealistic expectations. You convienently used the first people that were nice to you as a way out of the argument. Anyway, at least your listening to people again.

#1 reason why It's hard to talk to someone like you. Just because they understood me doesn't mean I'm trying to get out of the arguement.

And doesn't the new Havok Complete SDK that comes with the PS3 dev kit give allow better animations than current gen?

 

[Guilty Bystander]

I'm still waiting for all the "emotion" to show up in the PS2....

Why is that because the PS2's CPU was called the Emotion Engine?
That's like saying you are disappointed with you GeForce 7800GTX because it doesn't give you 7800 G-forces while playing.

 

[rosman]

FWIW I've seen this tech, and I know a lot of people are looking at it, it's cool, it has it's issues.

However it doens't really solve the responsiveness issue, real motion requires preparing before a motion, but players expect characters to jump as soon as a button is pressed. The result of that not happening is that characters feel heavy and unresponsive.

You can have excellent quality animation even with existing tech at the cost of controls that feel unresposive, some types of game tolerate that, others don't.

1 point

 

[Qroach]

#1 reason why It's hard to talk to someone like you. Just because they understood me doesn't mean I'm trying to get out of the arguement.

If you say so. It certainly seems that way, which is why I think you seemed so happy when someone said "i think he's trying to say...". Anyway...

And doesn't the new Havok Complete SDK that comes with the PS3 dev kit give allow better animations than current gen?

No. First we're talking about animation, and second what does this have to do with Havok or PS3? Hopefully your question ther eisn't some sideways comments where you expect PS3 to provide better animations becuase havok is available to PS3 developers? Check ERP's post. he knows what he is talking about and echos what others in here are trying to say.

 

[mckmas8808]

Of course ERP knows what he is talking about. But I'm sure he wouldn't agree with some of the "don't expect animations to get better on the PS3 or XBox 360" that some post in here say.

That would mean people in his profession are clueless and have no hope.

 

[Qroach]

Of course ERP knows what he is talking about. But I'm sure he wouldn't agree with some of the "don't expect animations to get better on the PS3 or XBox 360" that some post in here say.

First of all, nobody here said that. That's a childish extraction of what has been posted. Second, why don't you try asking him what he thinks?

That would mean people in his profession are clueless and have no hope.

What a bullshit comment. seriously comments like that are total nonsense.

 

[scooby_dooby]

Long story short you're in no position to judge the animations because you have not played the game yourself, nor have you seen 2 really skilled boxers fight head to head.

For all you know the animations could be amazingly realistic, but ruined by the PLAYER that you saw controlling the game. Dig? Claiming that because you've watched a video, you can accurately judge the quality of the animations is lame.

Any game could be made to look liek crap by the wrong player, which makes your method of judging a games animations fundamentally flawed.

 

[zRifle1z]

Long story short you're in no position to judge the animations because you have not played the game yourself, nor have you seen 2 really skilled boxers fight head to head.

For all you know the animations could be amazingly realistic, but ruined by the PLAYER that you saw controlling the game. Dig? Claiming that because you've watched a video, you can accurately judge the quality of the animations is lame.

Any game could be made to look liek crap by the wrong player, which makes your method of judging a games animations fundamentally flawed.

The fact of the matter is THIS IS A D E M O. There is no information on how old this build is. You are able to download and play it today.

For those of you who actually can play the D E M O learn the controls and complete a three to four hit combo. How was the animation? If you can do it without the CPU stopping your combo you will see what Scooby is saying is true. The animations need work because it is a DEMO, but they are no where near as bad as many make it seem, and is dependant upon the player controlling the fighter.

With that in mind it is still just a D E M O.

Some of you are really missing the bigger picture of what is now capable with next-gen consoles.

 

[Mendel]

There's just something fundamentally wrong in the way EA makes its animations for their sports games. It's not the individual animations though, they're nice... but the transitions from one animation to another, that's where every single EA sports game fails.

A lot better animations (and transitions thereof) exists today for current gen games.

Compare FIFA games with Pro Evolution, the difference is huge.

Compare NBA live with NBA 2k series... 2k wins hands down. EA players look like robots in comparison.

Compare NHL06 and NHL2k6. the difference is huge again.

Now look at FN3 and you get a sense of deja vu and know someone could do things so much better

 

[scooby_dooby]

There's just something fundamentally wrong in the way EA makes its animations for their sports games. It's not the individual animations though, they're nice... but the transitions from one animation to another, that's where every single EA sports game fails.

A lot better animations (and transitions thereof) exists today for current gen games.

Compare FIFA games with Pro Evolution, the difference is huge.

Compare NBA live with NBA 2k series... 2k wins hands down. EA players look like robots in comparison.

Compare NHL06 and NHL2k6. the difference is huge again.

Now look at FN3 and you get a sense of deja vu and know someone could do things so much better

very good observations Mendal, so true, especially with the NHL and NBA comparisons.

 

[Synergy34]

I will admit totally that for a game like Fight Night what they are doing gets the job done but i still think there is room for improvement.

But what Shifty said before rings true. Physics need to be worked in here somewhere. Also, i think my issue is how animations can be sort of locked in and you feel the unresponsiveness of the control of your character/player. Here's an example and Qroach tell me if this is being unrealistic for the next gen.

I've played enough Madden and NCAA over the years and one of the biggest issues I have is tackling on certain plays. You tell me if this is wrong but I think the animations are the problem. A running back runs outside and one of my DB's steps up and get him high, so the RB and the DB are struggling, meanwhile I come in from the side, dive tackle and nothing happens, I just bounce off. No effect on the play, my player doesn't try to wrap up, the RB doesn't get tripped up if I hit his legs, nothing. To me it looks like because the 2 players are locked in their respective animations nothing else matters, nothing can break their current animation of fighing the tackle and trying to tackle.

Now I'm not saying natural motion is the answer but if you watch that football vid for reference, the one were the ball carrier gets hit high and low, why can't they do that? I want to be able to affect a play that my controlled player didn't start.

Is that being unrealistic for next gen?

 

[ihamoitc2005]

Flow

With extra processing power and better software tools and middlewares that's what next-gen is all about. These things will happen. Do you think the ICO guys wanted PSone animation in their games? No! I expect the animation in there next-gen game to be better than SOTC. Actually they already said that one of the reasons why they worked so hard on the animation for SOTC was to use the reasearch for their PS3 game.

What is not here for these games is "fluid" sense. It is like switch instead of flow. SOTC has flow, Ico has flow so it iis not processor power limit but maybe developer understanding of animation and understanding to make real-time reaction.

 

[Qroach]

Now I'm not saying natural motion is the answer but if you watch that football vid for reference, the one were the ball carrier gets hit high and low, why can't they do that? I want to be able to affect a play that my controlled player didn't start.

Is that being unrealistic for next gen?

It's not a question of why, it's a question of how. What's driving the animations, what's occuring to make the interaction look realistic. natural motion is really cool, but it requires serious user intervention to make those animations look realistic. They don't occur by themselves.

Its not a question whether it's unrealistic for nextgen, as I said before, this isn't a hardware problem. It's a software problem. Now do I think this will be solved in a game over the course of this generation? honestly, no I don't. Some games will look better than others, there's all sorts of tricks to make animations look right in certain places but it's just as ERP has stated. You either give the control to the player or take control away from the player to make the animations look better. I think what you'll see first is more multiplayer tackles to make it look more realistic in a football game, but you won't see any huge physical based animation systems (like natural motion) any time soon

 

[turkish a. punkass]

good collision detection should be able to make things appear to move/react in more natural ways.

 

[liverkick]

What is not here for these games is "fluid" sense. It is like switch instead of flow. SOTC has flow, Ico has flow so it iis not processor power limit but maybe developer understanding of animation and understanding to make real-time reaction.

I agree with the flow/switch comparison. But Id disagree about processing power maybe not playing a part in future advancements. Again using SotC as a recent example, a part of the reason they were able to achieve this organic fluidity and sense of dynamism in their animation was due to melding more processor intensive tasks (physics) with inverse kinematics and traditional keyframe. Would they be able to achieve the same thing on PS1? Doubtful. I dont think its that far fetched to say we could see future advancements in animation taking a similar but more robust path, where the extra processing power on the CPU end could afford new approaches in synthesizing different animation techniques with physics and some form of AI adaption.

Of course easier said than done. I cant wait to see what Team Ico comes up with next at least.

 

[ihamoitc2005]

Xbox360

Would they be able to achieve the same thing on PS1?

Sorry I was not so clear. I was thinking of why very powerful Xbox360 CPU does not have good animation when less powerful PS2 CPU has very nice animation so that is why I said processing power is no problem because Xbox360 CPU has much power. So I feel it is because Ico maker has much more animation knowledge.

 

[Synergy34]

It's not a question of why, it's a question of how. What's driving the animations, what's occuring to make the interaction look realistic. natural motion is really cool, but it requires serious user intervention to make those animations look realistic. They don't occur by themselves.

Its not a question whether it's unrealistic for nextgen, as I said before, this isn't a hardware problem. It's a software problem. Now do I think this will be solved in a game over the course of this generation? honestly, no I don't. Some games will look better than others, there's all sorts of tricks to make animations look right in certain places but it's just as ERP has stated. You either give the control to the player or take control away from the player to make the animations look better. I think what you'll see first is more multiplayer tackles to make it look more realistic in a football game, but you won't see any huge physical based animation systems (like natural motion) any time soon

You can chalk me up in the, give the control to the player area then . I just thought of another issue i have, not as big as the first but something I am hoping for a change in.

When you approach a blocker sometimes you get that "sucked in" animation. I'm going right hard on the stick but my guy will get pulled left towards the blocker and get locked up, seems like there is a zone around players that if you approach at a certain angle the animation starts even if you have no contact with the player. I'm not sure why they do that but seems to me they at least make them activate when you make contact with and not close to a guy.

I got to say that I really do hope you are wrong.

 

[aaaaa00]

I agree with the flow/switch comparison. But Id disagree about processing power maybe not playing a part in future advancements. Again using SotC as a recent example, a part of the reason they were able to achieve this organic fluidity and sense of dynamism in their animation was due to melding more processor intensive tasks (physics) with inverse kinematics and traditional keyframe.

But SoTC had laggy unresponsive controls -- the character feels "heavy" and there's a perceptible lag between hitting a button, and the character actually doing something. (I only played the demo disc.)

Like ERP says, it's all a trade-off.