Fact: Nintendo to release HD console + controllers with built-in screen late 2012

Flipper was not at all similar to Graphics Synthesizer(maybe in the sense that they both draw graphics), and SH4 is not MIPS.

GS was more primitive than Flipper but that's about it and it didn't have lighting support built-in like Flipper....so? Both had eDRAM.

At the end of the day Nintendo didn't design it, ArtX did. Nintendo doesn't even know how to design a basic 3D GPU let alone Flipper...

As for the SH-4...its not MIPS...so? Doesn't change the point does it? It's still a basic off the shelf CPU with SIMD that ANY company could've "requested" for a console....that's the point...same way a PPC750 is a off the shelf CPU with SIMD...makes no difference whatsoever.
 
Heck if I had enough money even I could "design" a console by "requesting" stuff and have it built.
(...)
Looking at the rest of your post, I'm pretty sure that you couldn't.

This isn't like going to your local PC part shop and order something that looks nice.
You don't just tell AMD to make you a "500 shader" GPU. You either choose an "off-the-shelf" PC solution (which is hardly ever used because PC GPUs aren't made with close-to-metal optimizations in mind, even the PSVita has a custom variation of SGX543) or you order a custom GPU, where you have to determine, along with AMD, hundreds of specifications regarding everything from functional units, internal bandwidths, latencies, caches, to what IPs you can use, heat, power consumption, etc.

And you can only have a good guess at how the functional parts of the GPUs should perform if you're a console game developer -> which AMD and IBM are not.

The same must be made with the CPU, RAM, flash storage, internal ADCs and DACs, power rectifiers and converters, wireless baseband chips, optical drives and a lot more.
You're basically neglecting tens of thousands of man-hours from specialized engineers and technicians.



At the end of the day Nintendo didn't design it, ArtX did. Nintendo doesn't even know how to design a basic 3D GPU let alone Flipper...
Actually, the DS GPU is an internal development, as well as the rest of the ARM9+ARM7 SoC (and later the ARM11 in DSi/XL variants).
 
As for the SH-4...its not MIPS...so? Doesn't change the point does it? It's still a basic off the shelf CPU with SIMD that ANY company could've "requested" for a console....that's the point...same way a PPC750 is a off the shelf CPU with SIMD...makes no difference whatsoever.

If you take that stance, Cell is an off the shelf PPC with some coprocessors, EE was just a MIPS core with vector processors, RSX is an off the shelf nvidia chip. Xbox was flat out a low end PC.

The SH4 comment was just correcting an error though.
 
The GC was probably the most efficient design that Nintendo has come up with but they had the help of ArtX which is now a part of ATI/AMD. Without ArtX the GC wouldn't have been competitive IMO.

I totally agree here, as well balanced cpu and gpu(TEV) they were able to only 27MB (24 main = ~ 3MB eDRAM forget A-system) show amazing results.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I don't think Nintendo does ANY of the designs in the chips themselves. They just "request" stuff and that certainly doesn't take a design genius. The GC's overall system design was basically a Dreamcast + PS2 eg CPU was a basic IBM PPC + SIMD unit just like DC SH-4 (MIPS ISA core + SIMD unit), GPU was very similar to Graphics Synthesizer from PS2.

Heck if I had enough money even I could "design" a console by "requesting" stuff and have it built. Of course I'd have to hire some software engineers to develop a development environment but that's beside the point. In fact I could "design" one right now....custom AMD 3.2GHz APU consisting of quad core CPU + 500 shader cores, 2GB of RAM, Blu-ray drive, custom surround sound chip, Gigabit ethernet/WiFi chip, 1GB flash RAM, 250GB HDD etc...


Even assuming it is all true, how good would have been the console without their requests?
 
CPU and GPU is the brain and heart, everything else is ancillary and can be done by pretty much anybody...or even outsourced. Even the GOD drive was designed by Panasonic so Nintendo didn't really design much of anything. Is it that difficult to design a motherboard? I don't think so...
designing a system isn't about designing the individual parts, but design the system as a whole. It's like being a software design who then provides specs for the coders to implement. The application is a whole comes down to the designers ability to get the coders to implement each part of the whole effectively. Nintendo have had to identify costs and balance the system, picking from an enormous range of options to produce a balanced system that'll run the software they want to run and have to write. You make it sound like any dumb college undergrad can pick some random CPU, GPU, RAM and bits from a Maplin catalogue and produce a well balanced, cost effective, competitive console. You are majorly under-appreciating the work involved in creating an effective, competitive console, and ironically you're reasoning applies to all the console companies and not just Nintendo.
 
Actually, the DS GPU is an internal development, as well as the rest of the ARM9+ARM7 SoC (and later the ARM11 in DSi/XL variants).

And look how primitive and crappy it was compared to PSP...lol. It's no surprise they had to contract DMP to "design" a proper GPU for 3DS.
 
If you take that stance, Cell is an off the shelf PPC with some coprocessors, EE was just a MIPS core with vector processors, RSX is an off the shelf nvidia chip. Xbox was flat out a low end PC.

The SH4 comment was just correcting an error though.

Cell was co-designed with SONY and Toshiba, IBM (STI), I believe the guy who came up with using the SPEs was from SONY who formerly worked at NEC designing supercomputer chips.

Nintendo didn't design anything in the chips...
 
I've worked in chip and board level integration/manufacturing....trust me if you have enough money you don't need to know how to design anything because you're basically paying for engineering work using the contractor's engineering resources. What you do need is software developers (engineers) who knows what they need in hardware to do their job.
 
Honestly I can't believe the number of people proclaiming Nintendo had designed the most balanced consoles. Seriously?
Did you guys already forget the N64 ROM fail. Did you forget the weak non-programmable GPU in BOTH GameCube and Wii? Did you forget the split memory design with "extra slow" 16Mb audio memory?
Or are you just buying up the hype they have designed a super balanced new console?
Consider this - a lot of developers have seen the specs already and you don't see anyone but being cautious about what they say ...
 
Consider this - a lot of developers have seen the specs already and you don't see anyone but being cautious about what they say ...

It's tough when you want to believe. ;)

But I'll reiterate... don't expect much. We've seen the chassis, we know the available process tech. It's not too hard to gauge what sort of power is feasible based on other hardware configurations.
 
Honestly I can't believe the number of people proclaiming Nintendo had designed the most balanced consoles. Seriously?
Did you guys already forget the N64 ROM fail. Did you forget the weak non-programmable GPU in BOTH GameCube and Wii? Did you forget the split memory design with "extra slow" 16Mb audio memory?
Or are you just buying up the hype they have designed a super balanced new console?
Consider this - a lot of developers have seen the specs already and you don't see anyone but being cautious about what they say ...

I said the same thing a page earlier about the N64 (there's a whole section on the programming difficulties on wiki)

And yeah, the Xbox probably had better system design than the Wii taking into account the 6 year age gap between the two.

It would seem that these days MS is the one who makes the 'most balanced' consoles as 360 is having little difficulty keeping up with the PS3 despite being a year older and using far less exotic hardware. However they are pretty bad at the other parts of hardware design as RROD would attest to.
 
Cell was co-designed with SONY and Toshiba, IBM (STI), I believe the guy who came up with using the SPEs was from SONY who formerly worked at NEC designing supercomputer chips.

Nintendo didn't design anything in the chips...

You missed the point. I took your simple breakdown of Gamecube and applied it to other systems.
 
You missed the point. I took your simple breakdown of Gamecube and applied it to other systems.

Yes strawman point....who claimed other system didn't use some off the shelf components?

Fact is we know SONY can actually design some stuff on their own that turns out to be quite powerful ie Graphics Synthesizer and the GPU in PSP as well as the Playstation. We know that Nintendo cannot without outside help. The last good piece of silicon that Nntendo actually "designed" was the graphics processor in the SNES but that was a long time ago. Their next "inhouse design" was the graphics processor in the DS which was a complete joke.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Yes strawman point....who claimed other system didn't use some off the shelf components?

Fact is we know SONY can actually design some stuff on their own that turns out to be quite powerful ie Graphics Synthesizer and the GPU in PSP as well as the Playstation. We know that Nintendo cannot without outside help. The last good piece of silicon that Nntendo actually "designed" was the graphics processor in the SNES but that was a long time ago. Their next "inhouse design" was the graphics processor in the DS which was a complete joke.

Yeah, so why did you bother pointing out the Gamecube example, when literally everybody in the business does it? Sure Sony can design graphics chips, but their last high end chip(PS3) was an off the shelf one, probably because it out-featured and outperformed whatever they could come up with at the time. Nintendo is the same way.
 
Yes...the Xenos is basically an evolution of the Flipper chip not surprising since it was designed by ATI and NOT MS.;)

Except that it's evolution of the R400 project, not Flipper.
Just because chip has eDRAM doesn't make it similar to other chip with eDRAM
 
Yeah, so why did you bother pointing out the Gamecube example, .

Maybe because this is a thread about Nintendo's console? Or did you instead expect me to post about how SONY used a off the shelf GPU in PS3 in a Nintendo thread? :rolleyes:

If you want to talk about how MS and SONY use off the shelf parts too then why don't you create your own thread?

Except that it's evolution of the R400 project, not Flipper.
Just because chip has eDRAM doesn't make it similar to other chip with eDRAM

It's similar..didn't say it was the same. Both use eDRAM for frame buffer...what other GPUs use eDRAM for framebuffer?

BTW you asked, I answered...if you don't agree then move on...no point in trying to "prove" you're right...

If you guys want to "believe" that the WiiU will be some powerhouse that Nintendo "designed in-house" and will sell for a high price so they could make a profit on hardware then more power to you...we will find out soon enough. If all they could come up this generation is Wii with outdated console paired with new controller then next generation I see them doing the same with WiiU's new controller.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
If you guys want to "believe" that the WiiU will be some powerhouse that Nintendo "designed in-house" and will sell for a high price so they could make a profit on hardware then more power to you...we will find out soon enough. If all they could come up this generation is Wii with outdated console paired with new controller then next generation I see them doing the same with WiiU's new controller.

Well, you could get all defensive for everyone disagreeing with your miss&miss rampage of decisively wrong statements (Gamecube being a "Dreamcast + PS2", Flipper being somehow equivalent to GS because it has edram, SH-4 being MIPS, Nintendo not having anyone to design a GPU, you being able to "design" a console.. the list goes on and on) or... you could just accept that you were wrong and come out in a more responsible manner.. It's your call.

If you look closer, you'll see that none of the people refuting your statements actually implied that the WiiU will be very powerful or very weak,.


BTW, regarding the "if I had enough money" statement.. well, no sh..t sherlock..
With enough money you can buy a house. It doesn't mean you're competent enough in all civil construction areas to make a house by your hands.
Following the exact same line thought, any person/company can get pretty much anything if they pay another person/company to do the job for them.
Either you can make a profitable business out of it, it's a whole other issue, and Nintendo does not pay other companies to make the motherboard design + component/specs choice for their consoles.


Honestly I can't believe the number of people proclaiming Nintendo had designed the most balanced consoles. Seriously?
Did you guys already forget the N64 ROM fail.
Yes, seriously.
Both GC and Wii (so home consoles designed during the last 10 years) were well balanced consoles within their own segment and very cost-effective too.

The N64 (15 years ago, who knows which employess from '96 are still working in the company..) wasn't a good example, granted. It was also kind of a rushed console, though. Let's not forget that Playstation was originally a Nintendo+Sony project, and the N64 ended up rushed-up and late when Sony decided to go alone (AFAIK, mostly because of Nintendo being too arrogant at the time).




Did you forget the weak non-programmable GPU in BOTH GameCube and Wii? Did you forget the split memory design with "extra slow" 16Mb audio memory?
The TEVs are programmable. They're not as flexible as DX9+ shaders but I've seen many developer statements claiming they're comparable to DX8.1 pixel shaders. There's no way that a game like The Conduit could be made otherwise.

No one complained about the console having 16MB of slow and cheap RAM because audio processing and CD buffering doesn't require faster memory. Nintendo went with a non-UMA design because it proved to be very cost-effective at that time. OTOH, developers actually praised the fast and low-latency 1T-SRAM in the console.


Or are you just buying up the hype they have designed a super balanced new console?
Consider this - a lot of developers have seen the specs already and you don't see anyone but being cautious about what they say ...

Some people have assumed that building a gaming system using more cost/transistori/power efficient components than PS3 or X360 should be probable to happen simply because of the technology they have at their disposal right now -> it's by no means related to a dumb hype... You almost make it sound like we're adoring Steve Jobs because he invented video-calls..

And no, not many developers have seen the final specs.
In fact, most of the latest developer statements about the console are leading to the fact that the specs aren't finalized yet, hence the general "silence" about the console being more or equally powerful than the other two.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Back
Top