Fact: Nintendo to release HD console + controllers with built-in screen late 2012

I don't have enough time to read the whole article carefully (because my technical japanese aint that great) but what I can make of it, it indeed seems like they claim the wiiu will have a sm4 dx10 based gpu.

What surprised me most though was the part where they say the wiiu gpu is actually capable of outputting images to more than 3 screens at the same time.
 
Even IGN are complaining about the lack of proper thumbsticks - it turns out the triggers are digital not analog as well, so so much for any proper driving games on Wuu
http://au.wii.ign.com/articles/117/1175666p1.html

What happened to driving with the A button or motion controls? I'm not following you.

Found this on The GAF:
http://game.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/series/3dcg/20110611_452478.html

Looking at it via google translate, it seems like a lot of stuff we already knew about, but it keeps talking about a DirectX 10.1, SM 4.1 'RADEON 4000 series' part. I don't know what their source is, either, so it'd be nice if someone who can actually read Japanese can tell us if it's just bunk or not.

They are mostly speculating. In the beginning they are comparing the PS3 GPU which they call 2005 tech and the 360 GPU which they call Radeon HD2000 2007 tech and stating that the Wii GPU is 2009 tech and probably based on either the HD 4800 or 4890. It says the tessellation will be performed in the vertex shader in the Wii U since it doesn't use DirectX11, or that it will have an independent "tessellator". Then they go to talk about ATI's having two teams working on the GPU that they merged into one and the GPU will handle output to screen in an "eyefinity" kind of way(whatever the heck that is/means) and the AMD had nothing to do with the making of the tech demo. After that they talk about the PSVita

This is what I made out from it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gT_45RFFTx8
hmmm...
 
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I don't really know why you're assuming the developers won't be innovative.
I've told you why. Consoles have come and gone with one amazing, game-changing feature after another, and they've turned out limp squids. Sixaxis was talked about how it could enable all this stuff, and we talked at length on this board about the opportunities and what we hoped to see, integrating players' natural movements with the input, and it all came to nothing. DS is different because touch was the interface, same as Wii. Those consoles were built around completely new experiences. Here we're talking about what Wuu can add to existing game franchises already on PS360 to differentiate, and here I'm saying it won't bring much at all to the table. What reason is there to think that developers will add valuable additions beyond simple menus or maps to the WuuCon, when they've never embraced camera input, motion input, voice input, and all the other possibilities over that past 10 years? Just as COD and FIFA on PS3 don't use sixaxis or PSEye, and COD and FIFA on 360 don't use Kinect or LiveVision, COD and FIFA on Wuu won't use the touch screen in any innovative way.
 
Let me ask this. At this size, can the Wii U fit a GPU that actually display graphics in HD and not 510p or 600p? Preferably something at 720p at 60fps with modern graphics. I mean, it would be nice to finally have an HD console that's actually HD.

720p is HD? I thought that was the weird intermediary format that the electronics industry used to milk the HD customers for money, creating an artificial step between SD and HD in order to extend the marketing benefits of increased resolution for another half a decade or so.

The electronics giants are very skilled at their game of stratification of markets, but I thought this particular shenanigan had run its course, being replaced by 3D, higher frequency interpolation and dynamic backlighting. 720p has run its course. Tv-sets aren't sold with this resolution anymore, no consumer camcorder has used the format for years, even DSLRs use 1080p these days, and of course you'll be hard pressed to find computer screens with resolutions that low. Even cell phones (!) output to 1080p these days.

To respond to the actual question - of course the Wii U can fit such a GPU, it's just a question of how much work it can perform per pixel. But interpreting your question one step further, and assuming that you ask if the Wii U could fit a GPU that can render anything the PS360 GPUs do, but at 720p, the answer is still unequivocally yes. However, what none of us know is if they have actually decided to fit their console with such a GPU. Some developer statements imply that the answer is yes, while a couple of other imply that Nintendo has settled for parity with PS360. It's by no means certain that we will ever know the details of the Wii U hardware, leaving the issue open for forum shouting matches for the next 5-10 years.
 
Even IGN are complaining about the lack of proper thumbsticks - it turns out the triggers are digital not analog as well, so so much for any proper driving games on Wuu
http://au.wii.ign.com/articles/117/1175666p1.html

Let's hope this thing is still a prototype, like they are speculating. Otherwise if this type of controller does become popular, what's stopping both Sony and Microsoft from coming in and doing a proper version. One that has all the usual analog sticks and buttons, and a better touchscreen.

What is it with Nintendo and placing weird limitations on their own products.
 
720p is HD? I thought that was the weird intermediary format that the electronics industry used to milk the HD customers for money, creating an artificial step between SD and HD in order to extend the marketing benefits of increased resolution for another half a decade or so.

The electronics giants are very skilled at their game of stratification of markets, but I thought this particular shenanigan had run its course, being replaced by 3D, higher frequency interpolation and dynamic backlighting. 720p has run its course. Tv-sets aren't sold with this resolution anymore, no consumer camcorder has used the format for years, even DSLRs use 1080p these days, and of course you'll be hard pressed to find computer screens with resolutions that low. Even cell phones (!) output to 1080p these days.

To respond to the actual question - of course the Wii U can fit such a GPU, it's just a question of how much work it can perform per pixel. But interpreting your question one step further, and assuming that you ask if the Wii U could fit a GPU that can render anything the PS360 GPUs do, but at 720p, the answer is still unequivocally yes. However, what none of us know is if they have actually decided to fit their console with such a GPU. Some developer statements imply that the answer is yes, while a couple of other imply that Nintendo has settled for parity with PS360. It's by no means certain that we will ever know the details of the Wii U hardware, leaving the issue open for forum shouting matches for the next 5-10 years.

720p is actually HD by sheer definition. And "run it´s course" is a bit arrogant, 720p is the choice for many TV broadcasters thanks to 50/60p while 1080p tops at 30p. You thought wrong.
 
Let's hope this thing is still a prototype, like they are speculating. Otherwise if this type of controller does become popular, what's stopping both Sony and Microsoft from coming in and doing a proper version. One that has all the usual analog sticks and buttons, and a better touchscreen.

What is it with Nintendo and placing weird limitations on their own products.

It's still a year away, and like they stated it is still in prototype and they're asking for inputs.

I mean Sony already has PS Vita, just give it 8" OLED screen and add L2/R2, L3/R3 and handles and they have something better than Wii-U controller already. I still think Nintendo and their buttons will make them lose their Wii market share to Apple and Kinect.
 
All the developer interviews I've seen so far state the exact opposite of this. Nintendo has also been saying they've already listened to several ideas from 3rd parties, as those are really an important target this time.
Dev interviews most of the time mean sh!t. Shifty is mostly right just because that's what developers behaviour has been with these new input techs for years, not much creative use of them. It was pathetic to see the "clever" use of the Kinect for Mass Effect was voice commands, considering all the things that Kinect brings to the game they use the less defining characteristic of the device. Ironic, since MS packs most 360's with a microphone already and all the versions could benefit for voice input equally.
Also, I'm worried they have to do extra work rendering the screens for the controller.

Edit - Do we know if they have render another image for the controller or is the image just whatever that's already rendered but streamed to the control?
Depends on the developer. They could opt to render a different perspectives or stream the exact same image on the TV screen. Both have its uses and performance penalties.
Even IGN are complaining about the lack of proper thumbsticks - it turns out the triggers are digital not analog as well, so so much for any proper driving games on Wuu
http://au.wii.ign.com/articles/117/1175666p1.html
Well IGN does have a point regarding triggers. As for driving games, maybe a circle pad brakes and accelerates? Touch screen controls the radio, you hear music through the control speakers, that if an EA studio designed the game ;)
 
Wow... First I get a software demo in a small room outperforms a tech demo showcasing more polygons than any current gen console can handle and now there is someone saying that 720p isn't HD. I guess that mean that the 360 was an SD console just like the Wii. Worst of all, they seem to keep forgetting that it was already stated that the console renders in 1080p...

Whatever helps them sleep at night I suppose. What I want to know is how well the Wii U can tessellate. I'm also more interested in the CPU performance than the GPU performance. What I've seen so far graphically is enough for me to be satisfied with. Oh, I can't forget memory. I prefer they go large as they can with this one.
 
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For tablet games. For controlling an avatar on a TV screen, natural motion can prove very easy. People naturally move their hands and head playing games, but no-one's incorporated this. GT5's implementation of head tracking is extremely lame, and yet head-tracking could have been used back with EyeToy.

If anything, it disproves that. Marx et al already discussed in a fair bit of detail that the performance needed to do something like that on PS2 just was too high. Now the PS3 can't even do it very well unless you have a neat even background, and in GT5 it is only available in Arcade mode because in the other modes there weren't enough resources left.

Developers are extremely slow, no doubt because they are cautious. But they also make silly mistakes. Uncharted had random sixaxis elements that just didn't gel, and so ND ditched it with U2. EA haven't incorporated sixaxis into FIFA despite it being an extremeyl natural fit.

I thought the sixaxis controls were fine in Uncharted. What developers came to realise however is that many hardcore gamers have thumbs that connect with analog sticks like Navii with their horses and dragons (or significant others).

What you see now, however, is that when they do implement something like that in a big title, they make it optional. And that's probably a very wise decision. Some people love those options (like me), others don't. I personally don't need many games that make good use of something to call it a success - in that respect it is just a matter of definition. In the end you're just going to see diversification.

What I do realise is the importance of multiple platforms having overlapping features, as well as having competitive first party titles, and SDKs that make something easy to implement. That is the one thing that will make sure that third parties will be interested to try something. Just as important is that there is room and opportunity for small developers and projects to experiment and offer their results to an audience.

No, I just don't see 3rd parties producing much of worth given past opportunities. Potentially game changing techs have been left gathering dust. It'll be down to Nintendo to generate good ideas and the rest with slavishly copy, but that means no decent use in the core games like shooters and sports sims because Nintendo don't make these. The only possible caveat would be Madden, which seems a natural fit to set motions for players prior to a play.

There have been plenty of examples of succesful experiments in all areas. In Nintendo's case, even despite being last-gen hardware they did get plenty of titles to support the Wii-Mote properly for shooters, but the shooter audience stayed where the HD graphics are. Only now with Move implementations are we seeing that technology mature (Guerilla did some awesome things there) in the proper 'hardcore' shooters.

I don't think it matters much what anyone thinks. Nintendo showed with the Wii that there is a huge demand for a better pointing device on consoles as well as accessible motion stuff like Wii Sports, which is just good fun and extremely accessible. Sports Champions for PS3 was one of my gaming highlights of this generation, despite the B-level package - the gameplay was AAA quality for me, unique, and made me feel great.

I have my reservations about Nintendo's setup for some multi-platform applications, but at the same time I see a myriad of unique opportunities in the area where the Wii has always excelled, which is local multiplayer, and Nintendo has already shown this E3 that they are seeing some great ideas with it too. And fortunately for many of us, there are also third parties starting to show a good business sense with motion gaming, at the forefront of which is Ubisoft, who is now making more money from Motion gaming than Nintendo themselves on their own platform, or Harmonix with their dance titles for Kinect.

And if I read the trailers right, most of them also realise that for shooters, nunchuck plus Wii Motion+ will do just fine, and the WuCon can be used for tactics and other cool stuff. Which I think is great.
 
No external antenas? Interesting. Paying close attention, haven't seen any units that were sending the image wirelessly for what i can tell. The ones i saw in videos were operating with a cable underneed so in reality this doesn't give us any idea of how lag free the experience really is. The units didn't seem operational to me also.
 
If anything, it disproves that. Marx et al already discussed in a fair bit of detail that the performance needed to do something like that on PS2 just was too high. Now the PS3 can't even do it very well unless you have a neat even background, and in GT5 it is only available in Arcade mode because in the other modes there weren't enough resources left.



I thought the sixaxis controls were fine in Uncharted. What developers came to realise however is that many hardcore gamers have thumbs that connect with analog sticks like Navii with their horses and dragons (or significant others).

What you see now, however, is that when they do implement something like that in a big title, they make it optional. And that's probably a very wise decision. Some people love those options (like me), others don't. I personally don't need many games that make good use of something to call it a success - in that respect it is just a matter of definition. In the end you're just going to see diversification.

What I do realise is the importance of multiple platforms having overlapping features, as well as having competitive first party titles, and SDKs that make something easy to implement. That is the one thing that will make sure that third parties will be interested to try something. Just as important is that there is room and opportunity for small developers and projects to experiment and offer their results to an audience.



There have been plenty of examples of succesful experiments in all areas. In Nintendo's case, even despite being last-gen hardware they did get plenty of titles to support the Wii-Mote properly for shooters, but the shooter audience stayed where the HD graphics are. Only now with Move implementations are we seeing that technology mature (Guerilla did some awesome things there) in the proper 'hardcore' shooters.

I don't think it matters much what anyone thinks. Nintendo showed with the Wii that there is a huge demand for a better pointing device on consoles as well as accessible motion stuff like Wii Sports, which is just good fun and extremely accessible. Sports Champions for PS3 was one of my gaming highlights of this generation, despite the B-level package - the gameplay was AAA quality for me, unique, and made me feel great.

I have my reservations about Nintendo's setup for some multi-platform applications, but at the same time I see a myriad of unique opportunities in the area where the Wii has always excelled, which is local multiplayer, and Nintendo has already shown this E3 that they are seeing some great ideas with it too. And fortunately for many of us, there are also third parties starting to show a good business sense with motion gaming, at the forefront of which is Ubisoft, who is now making more money from Motion gaming than Nintendo themselves on their own platform, or Harmonix with their dance titles for Kinect.

And if I read the trailers right, most of them also realize that for shooters, nun chuck plus Wii Motion+ will do just fine, and the WuCon can be used for tactics and other cool stuff. Which I think is great.

Amen brother. Some of the things people are saying about what the controller just seems ridiculous. I see tons of potential with it.

Also, what with all of this "Wu" mess that sprouted up? I sounds lame to me when I see it. That may be just me though. Wouldn't it be a lot more simple to just call it the U. Ucon sound a lot less...silly. When I see the word Wu I think of Dynasty Warriors. Also, what does the U stand for? It is Universe? Ultimate? Unity?Ultra?
 
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If anything, it disproves that. Marx et al already discussed in a fair bit of detail that the performance needed to do something like that on PS2 just was too high. Now the PS3 can't even do it very well unless you have a neat even background...
That's background removal and full body tracking. Head tracking just needs to track the face, which is a doddle. We've seen many demos of things like head-tracking on YouTube, yet no-one's put it into practice.

What you see now, however, is that when they do implement something like that in a big title, they make it optional.
What good, worthwhile sixaxis controls have there been that haven't just been mapping button presses onto tilts? Warhawk's flying was great, and yet they are ditching that for Starhawk. There's no dodging in FIFA, and no motion detection in platformers that follow the natural movements of gamers. Sony said when they developed sixaxis that they had observed player moving their hands around naturally when playing, and so thought to harness that motion. Yet no-one has done so. You only need look at a typical player of LBP to see that when they want to jump higher they invariably flick the controller up. I can't think ofa single platformer that augments the button controls with motion controls.

Amen brother. Some of the things people are saying about what the controller just seems ridiculous. I see tons of potential with it.
So did sixaxis.

Also, what with all of this "Wu" mess that sprouted up? I sounds lame to me when I see it. That may be just me though. Wouldn't it be a lot more simple to just call it the U.
U could be a typo for I and would sound totally ridiculous in discussion, while single letter names are pretty limiting. Wu/Wuu is a logical contraction of Wii U. I prefer Wuu because it has the visual similarity with Wii.
 
Amen brother. Some of the things people are saying about what the controller just seems ridiculous. I see tons of potential with it.

The question is wether that potential will ever be realised in games like COD. Part of the problem that heavy inovation is optional with the UPad (like this best ;)), unlike say with the Wii which required inovation from the outset. If its use simply turns out to be HUD elements like maps or a radar it isnt going to cut it. While there is value to be had there a COD player isnt going to invest in an entire new system for it, especially when they will potentialy have to make other sacrifices like using circle pads rather than analogue sticks, unwieldy size, probably a worse online infrastucture etc. The positives have to outweigh the negatives by a fair margin AND be worth the price tag.
 
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Shifty is questioning wether that potential will ever be realised in games like COD. Part of the problem that heavy inovation is optional with the UPad (like this best ;)), unlike say with the Wii which required inovation from the outset. If its use simply turns out to be HUD elements like maps or a radar it isnt going to cut it. While there is value to be had there a COD player isnt going to invest in an entire new system for it, especially when they will potentialy have to make other sacrifices like using circle pads rather than analogue sticks, unwieldy size, probably a worse online infrastucture etc. The positives have to outweigh the negatives by a fair margin AND be worth the price tag.

Who cares about COD? If you want to play that you should stick to a standard controller on the 360. Nintendo is about innovation and I can't think of many things that are less innovative than a military 1st person shooter. You already limiting the possible potential.

I'm interested in what this controller can bring to gaming that hasn't been brought to console gaming, not how it can be adapted to stale reiterations popular big name titles. I consider COD to be beneath the U controller.
 
Who cares about COD? If you want to play that you should stick to a standard controller on the 360.

And that's exactly why the WuCon will not be successful, COD and all the other games like it that make up the vast majority of gaming.
 
That's background removal and full body tracking.

Incorrect. It is just head tracking in GT5 and nothing else. Same in The Fight, which is the only other title that really implements it, and that too cannot do head-tracking reliably against a chaotic background.

Head tracking just needs to track the face, which is a doddle. We've seen many demos of things like head-tracking on YouTube, yet no-one's put it into practice.

I just think you're wrong. It only seems to be a doddle, given the right circumstances.

What good, worthwhile sixaxis controls have there been that haven't just been mapping button presses onto tilts? Warhawk's flying was great, and yet they are ditching that for Starhawk.

I'm not going to have that discussion again here. Summary: plenty of good examples, but not nearly enough titles make use of them. So I'm sure we agree to that extent. However, Move is a different kettle of fish, with several factors more titles supporting it meaningfully in its first half year than there were PS3 titles in total in its first year. No guarantee that it holds up, but it's certainly something else entirely.

And that is again way outclassed by the Wii, no question about it. I expect the WuCon to be supported similarly, as it comes standard with the new console. And I certainly agree that we don't have to care about CoD at all for this controller, but having said that I think a DS title already proved that the nub for walking combined with then pen as a mouse pointer will probably work more than well enough.
 
Who cares about COD? If you want to play that you should stick to a standard controller on the 360. Nintendo is about innovation and I can't think of many things that are less innovative than a military 1st person shooter. You already limiting the possible potential.

I'm interested in what this controller can bring to gaming that hasn't been brought to console gaming, not how it can be adapted to stale reiterations popular big name titles. I consider COD to be beneath the U controller.


COD was just an example of a popular multiplat franchise. The majority of WiiU games are likely to be 3rd party multiplat titles, and so they are important.

There is potential, which is most likely to come from WiiU exclusives, but you seem to take great inovation as a given, others will wait to see if that potential is ever realised in a big way. I certainly havent seen or heard anything so far that has convinced me, though i would be happy if im proven wrong. I appreciate your enthusiasm but you really shouldnt expect everyone to be as optimistic as you, from experience it doesnt usually end well ;)
 
And that is again way outclassed by the Wii, no question about it. I expect the WuCon to be supported similarly, as it comes standard with the new console. And I certainly agree that we don't have to care about CoD at all for this controller, but having said that I think a DS title already proved that the nub for walking combined with then pen as a mouse pointer will probably work more than well enough.

The difference with the Wii is that it pretty much forced inovative new control methods from the get go, this isnt the case here, certainly not to the same extent anyhow. Devs have the option to implement whole new ways of interfacing with the game, but they also have the option of doing very little new. I think shifty is mentioning sixaxis because it fits the UPad scenario probably moreso than the wiimote in that use of the features were entirely optional rather than a requirement for a workable interface.
 
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