Dreams : create, share & play [PS4, PS5]

[goonergaz]

I was thinking about this just the other day, and probably the main barrier is everything needs to be created 'from scratch'. In LBP, you had characters with emotes you could drop into a creation (movie) and have them act, plus drop on costumes to give them personality, so creating simple stuff was easy. I haven't seen the same in Dreams, though of course you have premade items you'll be able to share and use. But that means that there's a whole load of work needed to create characters in Dreams.

It's traded work for quality. Far more quality and variety is possible, but with an increase in creator's effort to achieve that. My animation took some weeks, maybe a couple of months, in LBP. The same in Dreams would look a lot more professional but I can't see it taking less than many months to achieve a better quality result.

Well, the game will likely come with loads of characters you can either just drop in or tweak and (I'm sure) within days hundreds of others will be added. As for animation...I'm not sure what you mean (as I haven't seen your animation) - but I saw a demo where they literally record the animations by dragging the characters where you want them to go (not sure how LBP handled this) - it took seconds to do.

edit - have you seen this?

 

[Shifty Geezer]

My video is this one:

In LBP, you immediately had access to facial expressions and clothing. Dreams puppetting is superior, but I've yet to see any good facial rigs and can you swap clothes and hairstyles with the press of a button. Strikes me that it'll be a lot of work to create characters with emotive faces (if its even possible), which is what gave the LBP creations so much power despite the simple visuals.

 

[milk]

From the interviews and demos of MM I've seen, they are aware of that barrier, and the way they envision solving that is having people share everything from full games to just base assets, so that this vacuum left by LBP's pre-made content can be filled by the community itself.
How well that vision will materialize is anyone's guess. I can see how hard it may be to materialize. Specially with users FINDING that content. But the upside is you won't be seeing just different permutations of the very same assets again and again.
It's wait and see time.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

There'll be an artistic discontinuity between assets though, without an artistic director, so you'll only be able to pick from a subset of everything made, or just have a messy hodge-podge. And you won't be able to pick a 'biker outfit' created from a user and apply it to a 'grandma' model from another user and a 'bearded guy' from a third user. Creation of characters in LBP, the most important part of a story, was fun and effortless swapping between features and costume pieces. I think that's going to be the biggest loss in Dreams and may have a significant impact on creative adoption. An 8 year old (or any other age user) can easily create a character they value in LBP from pieces, making it their own and giving a sense of creativity, while the same 8 year old (other ages are available) will probably get frustrated in being unable to create a decent looking lizard man or rock chick.

 

[goonergaz]

There'll be an artistic discontinuity between assets though, without an artistic director, so you'll only be able to pick from a subset of everything made, or just have a messy hodge-podge. And you won't be able to pick a 'biker outfit' created from a user and apply it to a 'grandma' model from another user and a 'bearded guy' from a third user. Creation of characters in LBP, the most important part of a story, was fun and effortless swapping between features and costume pieces. I think that's going to be the biggest loss in Dreams and may have a significant impact on creative adoption. An 8 year old (or any other age user) can easily create a character they value in LBP from pieces, making it their own and giving a sense of creativity, while the same 8 year old (other ages are available) will probably get frustrated in being unable to create a decent looking lizard man or rock chick.

But this only applies to Sackboys -who's to say there won't be a similar character (or set of) within Dreams that won't offer similar options...a few defaults but with the option to completely customise.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

There might be. We can only discuss what's been shown though, and I'm pointing out one of the problems with Dreams creations reaching LBP-like popularity based on what's shown.

 

[Tkumpathenurple]

There'll be an artistic discontinuity between assets though, without an artistic director, so you'll only be able to pick from a subset of everything made, or just have a messy hodge-podge.

True, but isn't anyone able to take and modify almost anything? Because that'd mean anyone could be an artistic director by, say, scouring character models across various projects and modifying them to contain greater cohesion in animations.

And you won't be able to pick a 'biker outfit' created from a user and apply it to a 'grandma' model from another user and a 'bearded guy' from a third user. Creation of characters in LBP, the most important part of a story, was fun and effortless swapping between features and costume pieces.

I've not watched many videos for this game, just the odd one here and there, so I'm really not sure here, but is it not possible to bind different body parts into one whole? Because then you could just create different instances of torsos for various jackets etc

I think that's going to be the biggest loss in Dreams and may have a significant impact on creative adoption. An 8 year old (or any other age user) can easily create a character they value in LBP from pieces, making it their own and giving a sense of creativity, while the same 8 year old (other ages are available) will probably get frustrated in being unable to create a decent looking lizard man or rock chick.

Possibly. I suppose it depends on whether they like dressing up a doll or modelling some clay. The vast popularity of dolls suggests the former though.

But then, in the age of social media, maybe that 8 year old would get a greater buzz from sculpting a character's head and logging in a few weeks later to find that it's been used in dozens of other projects.

 

[goonergaz]

People still have LBP though...it's not like that doesn't exist anymore. And whilst I can see what you're saying, LBP was also held back because of it's limitations which Dreams seemingly removes.

I guess it's swings and roundabout, where it gains in one area it (potentially) loses in another (but that might not be the case for long). When you think of what people managed to do with LBP (even a FPS of sorts), imagine what you can do with dreams.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I've not watched many videos for this game, just the odd one here and there, so I'm really not sure here, but is it not possible to bind different body parts into one whole? Because then you could just create different instances of torsos for various jackets etc

Sure. However, you or someone needs to model them, unless MM are going to provide a library of hundreds of character pieces.

People still have LBP though...it's not like that doesn't exist anymore. And whilst I can see what you're saying, LBP was also held back because of it's limitations which Dreams seemingly removes.

I guess it's swings and roundabout, where it gains in one area it (potentially) loses in another (but that might not be the case for long). When you think of what people managed to do with LBP (even a FPS of sorts), imagine what you can do with dreams.

It's not about potential - no-one's refuting that. It's about the likelihood that potential will be reached, and what the barriers are. I feel it's important to acknowledge the barrier of entry for creations has in some ways increased required workload when it comes to characters, and so LBP should not be looked as a reference point for creations. Look at other attempts with creators like that Xbox one - loads of potential that didn't take off. I think LBP hit a sweet spot regards what could be achieved by the everyman which is why it had a level of success far and above every other creator. A huge part of that was Sackboy, both the aesthetic (along with the whole game's vibrant art-style) and the ease which he could be imbued with life. Dreams doesn't have that.

This isn't saying Dreams will fail nor succeed. I'm just pointing out no-one should be assuming Dreams will succeed or fail based on LBP. It's a very different animal that may not be adopted by the mainstream in the same way.

 

[goonergaz]

Sure. However, you or someone needs to model them, unless MM are going to provide a library of hundreds of character pieces.

It's not about potential - no-one's refuting that. It's about the likelihood that potential will be reached, and what the barriers are. I feel it's important to acknowledge the barrier of entry for creations has in some ways increased required workload when it comes to characters, and so LBP should not be looked as a reference point for creations. Look at other attempts with creators like that Xbox one - loads of potential that didn't take off. I think LBP hit a sweet spot regards what could be achieved by the everyman which is why it had a level of success far and above every other creator. A huge part of that was Sackboy, both the aesthetic (along with the whole game's vibrant art-style) and the ease which he could be imbued with life. Dreams doesn't have that.

This isn't saying Dreams will fail nor succeed. I'm just pointing out no-one should be assuming Dreams will succeed or fail based on LBP. It's a very different animal that may not be adopted by the mainstream in the same way.

I don't know much about Project Spark, but from memory wasn't that quite limited with content behind a paywall? Also not half as user friendly...I mean, one thing MM can do is create something that's easy to use. Are there any similar demos out there showing how to build stuff?

 

[Shifty Geezer]

A lot of LBP content was behind a pay-wall too. People bought it because it was worth it, even just dressing up as a Disney character or whatever. IIRC I bought some LBP content for the purposes of creating my film. I don't know how much of Spark was free. There was also Kudo (apparently still going), and others from other players like EA. LBP hit a sweet spot from Day 1.

 

[Arwin]

I think being able to create things from scratch also allows much more freedom. Certainly the puppeteering is already more advanced and we’ll have to wait and see on the emotive side of things.

What I am most looking forward to is how easy it is to sculpt stuff. This is the first time I think something as powerful and easy to use for creating/sculpting virtual objects and landscapes is becoming available to everyone.

Of course there will be vast differences in quality of what people create but like playing with play-dough or crayons or LEGO, the primary level of accessibility is quite stunning. Combined with VR it could be even more awesome.

It will be interesting to see how large they will be able to create worlds and how cooperative the whole thing will be able to be. In a sense and in other words, I wonder how much of the Minecraft itch it may scratch.

 

[goonergaz]

A lot of LBP content was behind a pay-wall too. People bought it because it was worth it, even just dressing up as a Disney character or whatever. IIRC I bought some LBP content for the purposes of creating my film. I don't know how much of Spark was free. There was also Kudo (apparently still going), and others from other players like EA. LBP hit a sweet spot from Day 1.

I meant items for games rather than skins and stickers. I suppose there was mechanisms like paintinator (or whatever it was called)...but I know too little about PS to compare, I just heard that it was more like the 'construction kits' of the 80s & 90s but you couldn't construct stuff yourself - in LBP you had people make all sorts of things and give them away to use in your levels.

I need to see more of PS - but then, maybe it was just how it was sold and the build up (etc) that meant one was successful and one wasn't?

edit;

https://www.denofgeek.com/us/games/project-spark/257413/what-went-wrong-with-project-spark

When Project Spark officially launched in October 2014, the initial download was completely free, but it was also very limited. You could play through the (mediocre) story mode with one character or play through hybrid creation/mission mode Crossroads (again with only one character), but only some creation tools were available for free.

If you wanted access to everything that Project Spark had to offer, you had to plunk down quite a bit of cash. One year after launch, nearly 50 paid DLC packs were available. As this was a more niche title, Project Spark failed to gain the audience willing to pay for the complete suite of creation tools. Imagine if Super Mario Maker cost upwards of $100 for all of its modes and tools.

To make matters worse, Project Spark isn't as user-friendly as it might have seemed at first—not if you were interested in complex game design. A lot of player-made Project Spark creations just aren’t great. There’s no doubt you can do a lot with the tools, but that does take time. Much of Project Spark's library is full of levels that are little more than fairly decent character models with no or little AI programming thrown into barren levels.

 

[milk]

There'll be an artistic discontinuity between assets though, without an artistic director, so you'll only be able to pick from a subset of everything made, or just have a messy hodge-podge.

Right. That's precisely why MM is going for this dreamy aesthetics. They want to create a universe where that sort of discontinuity is accepted, and even, expected.

 

[goonergaz]

Not long now...looking forward to trying the Beta out over Christmas

 

[Arwin]

Oh? How did you get in or did I miss something? Or is it sarcasm? From what I read it’s not happening ...

 

[goonergaz]

Oh? How did you get in or did I miss something? Or is it sarcasm? From what I read it’s not happening ...

http://www.pushsquare.com/news/2018...ms_the_dreams_beta_is_still_on_track_for_2018

Well, I hope to get in but it's still coming this year!

 

[goonergaz]

Beta starts tomorrow! Anyone who signed up to the newsletter will get a code! Wahoo!

 

[goonergaz]

• Only accessible for those following the Media Molecule community newsletter.
• Will last through 19th December - 21st January.
• General beta signups start 8th January
• 4 GB download
• Beta doesn't support PSVR
• Getting invite codes tomorrow.
• No PS+ needed.
• Must sign a confidentiality agreement.

 

[Globalisateur]

Beta starts tomorrow! Anyone who signed up to the newsletter will get a code! Wahoo!

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