Digital Foundry Article Technical Discussion Archive [2013]

[pjbliverpool]

How is higher fidelity art not an artistic choice? Are you actually saying game quality graphics is art and CG is not art?

Are you deliberately trying to misunderstand the point? Yes you can choose 30fps over 60fps in order to allow increased graphical detail. That is of course an artistic choice. But it's specifically a choice to sacrifice framerate in favour of graphical detail. There is no inherent artistic value in having a low framerate in real time graphics all other things being equal.

Sure I would because I know the most powerful PC could still be brought to its knees with CG level assets/simulation which is the ultimate goal. I'd cap it at 30fps and keep throwing stuff at it until it cannot render at higher frame rates. Of course the assets are even higher quality than the assets used in the console version. There are many things in the console version that could be improved.

No that's not an option. The developers would not devote thousands of man hours to improving the core graphics of the PC version in order to max out the highest end PC setups, and even if they did, as DrJay24 has pointed out, the game could not be further upgraded after release while PC hardware would continue to increase in power. So I'll ask the question again.

Would you expect a PC port of Ryse to be artificially capped at 30fps leaving performance on the table in those systems that had it to spare?

I know at least one released current gen game that has already used this technique...it's not new man....

There is also a tech demo of frame interpolation being done with current gen that Star Wars game...

Really? Which current game targets 24fps while simulaneously offering a 100% smooth gameplay experience (like movies)?

 

[RudeCurve]

And there would still be PCs that would run it at higher resolutions and higher frame rates. Should the devs try to lock that down to fit their "artistic vision" or let them run higher? Would the game look and play worse after those upgrades?

Really? What single PC could run the actual CG stuff in real time dynamically in game let alone at higher frame rates and resolutions? When I say CG stuff I'm talking about stuff like the works from ILM and WETA. If what you say is true those VFX studios wouldn't need render farms because they'd only need a single PC...lol.

Straw man? Everyone here but you seems to understand it is a compromise, that was my whole point. You seem to think 30fps is the perfect frame rate no matter what, which is ridiculous.

Where did I say 30fps was perfect for all types of games? Straw Man indeed...

 

[RudeCurve]

Are you deliberately trying to misunderstand the point? Yes you can choose 30fps over 60fps in order to allow increased graphical detail. That is of course an artistic choice. But it's specifically a choice to sacrifice framerate in favour of graphical detail. There is no inherent artistic value in having a low framerate in real time graphics all other things being equal.

But all other things are not equal! That is the point!

No that's not an option. The developers would not devote thousands of man hours to improving the core graphics of the PC version in order to max out the highest end PC setups, and even if they did, as DrJay24 has pointed out, the game could not be further upgraded after release while PC hardware would continue to increase in power. So I'll ask the question again.

This is all academic....you need to wrap your head around the prospect of what's theoretically possible. That is my argument. This has nothing to do with profits or man hours etc. At the end of the day there's never enough power because developers will always find ways to max it out.

Would you expect a PC port of Ryse to be artificially capped at 30fps leaving performance on the table in those systems that had it to spare?

That's a loaded question and you know it. You want to talk ports which is not what my argument is about.

Really? Which current game targets 24fps while simulaneously offering a 100% smooth gameplay experience (like movies)?

RE5 uses it but base frame rate is 30fps...same idea.

 

[taisui]

24fps for films is not not smooth at all, just as Michael Bay to shake the camera and you'll see...which is NOTHING.

 

[pjbliverpool]

But all other things are not equal! The is the point!

Stop avoiding the question. I've already apologised if I misunderstood your original argument yet you continue to dance around your true meaning. So lets get that established...

Hypothetically, if graphics detail remained the same regardless of framerate - is there any situation in real time rendered graphics where 30fps would be preferable to 60fps?

This is all academic....you need to wrap your head around the prospect of what's theoretically possible. That is my argument. This has nothing to do with profits or man hours etc. At the end of the day there's never enough power because developers will always find ways to max it out.

That's a loaded question and you know it. You want to talk ports which is not what my argument is about.

Again, avoiding the question. It's neither academic or loaded. It's a very real prospect. The PC, may well get a port of Ryse at some point in the future and at some point there will be PC's capable of playing it at greater than 30fps and maximum graphics settings.

So will/should the developers cap the framerate to 30fps or not? Simple question, just answer it.

RE5 uses it but base frame rate is 30fps...same idea.

So you believe at 24fps RE5 would be exactly as smooth as movie footage?

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I recommend people just abandon this line of discussion as futile and save yourself wasted virtual-breath.

 

[RudeCurve]

Stop avoiding the question. I've already apologised if I misunderstood your original argument yet you continue to dance around your true meaning. So lets get that established...

Hypothetically, if graphics detail remained the same regardless of framerate - is there any situation in real time rendered graphics where 30fps would be preferable to 60fps?

IF all things being equal a deliberate 30fps cap could still be an artistic choice if the designer is trying to simulate that familiar cinematic feel.

Again, avoiding the question. It's neither academic or loaded. It's a very real prospect. The PC, may well get a port of Ryse at some point in the future and at some point there will be PC's capable of playing it at greater than 30fps and maximum graphics settings.

So will/should the developers cap the framerate to 30fps or not? Simple question, just answer it.

If the PC gets a straight port the frame rate could still be capped IF the creator is trying to simulate that familiar cinematic feel. I can't say whether it should be capped or not as I'm not the director behind the game.

So you believe at 24fps RE5 would be exactly as smooth as movie footage?

I can't say for sure but I think it's theoretically possible. I've only seen the technique used at 30fps.

 

[Lalaland]

'Cinematic feel' has always been a fig-leaf for 'can't hit 60 fps with the FX I want'. The use of blur is a particular irritation to me as it's crude as all hell and is nowhere near approximating the effect of holding the shutter open for 1/24 sec on a film camera (or integrating over that time for CCD). Accurate blur is way too computationally expensive at the moment so no game is getting that 'cinematic feel' that way. I tend to try and disable blur or dial it way the hell back on most of my games because damn if it don't look ugly most of the time

 

[pjbliverpool]

So now you're saying that the choice of 30fps over 60fps is to allow greater pixel fidelity. That's fine and a perfectly valid developer choice. Its not however what you were saying originally which was that 30fps could be better than 60fps all other things being equal. I.e. its a choice based on artistic preference and not technical limitations.

No I never said all things being equal, stop making things up.

As I said in the case of Ryse 30fps was a design choice because the art looked better. If they had more resources to run at 60fps they'd still bring it back down to 30fps and add even more stuff per pixel to make it look even better...

Hypothetically, if graphics detail remained the same regardless of framerate - is there any situation in real time rendered graphics where 30fps would be preferable to 60fps?

IF all things being equal a deliberate 30fps cap could still be an artistic choice if the designer is trying to simulate that familiar cinematic feel.

Yep I think we can leave it there.

 

[tuna]

They already did a public test of 48fps with a big name movie and the results were mixed. There is no need to force the whole industry down an unproven path.

The Hobbit 1 was widely released in 48 fps 3D. This is because now a lot of cinema projectors are able to actually show it like that.

If you have any published test regarding reactions to content filmed in different frame rates I would be very interested in reading them. The closest I have found are some secondary sources regarding test Douglas Troumbull and James Cameron did.

 

[tuna]

Quote:
And to think all this time we've been struggling to hit 30fps minimum when we could have been targetting 24fps with motion blur for film level smoothness. You should spread the word amoungst developers of your breakthrough.

I know at least one released current gen game that has already used this technique...it's not new man.....

Which game? Can it output 24p?

 

[eastmen]

So DF has a comparison video out , apparently the ps4 is 900p but has some weird muted color thing going on while the one is 720p but doesn't hae the muted thing happening so textures look much better as does a lot of the lighting.

Really weird there. Hopefully a patch brings the one up to 900p and fixes the muted color stuff on the ps4


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XqWRACk2zY

 

[XpiderMX]

Some more aliasing on Xbox One, but looks mostly the same.

 

[messyman]

Xbox one is 1280 x 720

PS4 is 1600 x 900

Tho I gotta say the X1 upscaler is doing a pretty good job.

 

[Bagel seed]

DF comparison article. Well, guess thuway was right

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-battlefield-4-next-gen-vs-pc-face-off-preview

Xbone version looks like it has some post process sharpening. And it's freaking dark as hell.

Framerate test video

 

[eastmen]

yea but the ps4 isn't 1080p either and there is no talk of Esram problems for it or Driver problems or rushed launch. So whats the deal there ?

 

[messyman]

Yeah, I'm not a fan of the exaggerated contrast.

 

[Scott_Arm]

Both versions look pretty good.

Weird gamma curve on xbox again? Hopefully that is not the case. A little disappointed in the multiplayer frame rate not locking at 60, but it's still better than last gen. I'd like to see a dynamic frame buffer for bf5.

Edit: the console versions do not look to be worlds apart. There are some differences as expected, but x1 is very much in the same ballpark. It's not in wii territory.

 

[Bagel seed]

No AO on Xbone version

Looking past image quality matters, we do see a direct comparison in texture assets, lighting and effects. However, there is discrepancy between the next-gen consoles in the PS4's use of ambient occlusion - which looks comparable to the PC's horizon-based method (HBAO) on ultra settings. This effect creates a gentle shaded halo around your character's hands and gun while approaching walls, adding a sense of depth to 3D objects that would otherwise appear flat. It's a taxing process for any platform, but curiously there's no ambient occlusion to speak of whatsoever at these points on Xbox One. Its absence is easy to miss due to the inherently darker gamma in our captures, but it's a notable omission nevertheless.

Edit: This game looks better than I thought. I'd like to see some direct feed that's not compressed to hell on YT.

 

[Gitaroo]

xbone version looks like they took a page from Sony lol

http://sonyviet.vn/2013/08/su-khac-biet-dang-kinh-ngac-khi-bat-tat-x-reality-tren-xperia-z-ultra/

it looks exactly like what happen here with the Xbone version, things like this looks great on still shot when you upscale low quality source but looks like ass in motion. I guess Sony take take a page from the PC sweetFX mode for "enhance" their image hahahaha