Digital Foundry Article Technical Discussion Archive [2013]

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Yeahhh. A company that has PR mouthpieces in place decides that the best way to advertise an obscure number is through the grapevine.

I think you need to up your meds, the paranoia is coming back. I worked at MS for 9 years, and in my experience, they're just not that convoluted.

With all the relatively recent fiascoes (Surface tablet, Kin, Windows 8, Windows Phone) isn't it possible they are looking at things more closely and trying to get out in front on issues?

The DRM backtrack certainly suggest they are at least aware and paying attention.... Surely they've learned a thing or 2 about the proper way to execute brand/reputation management and I'd even suggest that a few of the articles that came during and post E3 had a strong PR feel to them.

DF would be the perfect conduit to release info that changes perception without being too accountable. I'm not at all saying or suggesting bias by Richard either; he's in a tough position. If someone offers info in the form of a leak there is only so much he can do to verify it as the issues with the bandwidth article clearly show. Of course he doesn't want to compromise his integrity but OTOH getting the story is also important so there are tradeoffs.

To put it another way MS in 2013 isn't on the same footing they were 5 years ago, they've made numerous mistakes and that could/should change how they do things. Especially with how poor the messaging execution was from Mach thru June.

Edit: Cerny became an internet rockstar pretty much overnight largely thru the grapevine and clever social media marketing. It wasn't an accident, its strategy on Sony's behalf.
 
Samsung did this kind of things and I think MSFT do this too.

AFAIK Samsung paid some poor students to post positively about it's products on comments sections. Much more straightforward than what is alleged here. For MS I dont know of anything like that.

Unless you'd like to elaborate.
 
After reading 50 or 60 pages of this post ......I'm left thinking wow .....come now Microsoft don't have to talk about there tech .

Developers are under NDA until certain dates .....what these dates are I don't know .
But believing Microsoft are spreading force information as some sort of dark and dirty campagnne to show there new machine in a better light is just plain cockoo ....in my opinion .

Games shown so far show Microsoft's new Xbox to be a very capable machine they don't need to try and trick buyers just show the games if they look good people will buy or not buy .

A game shown on TV looking good is far more important to sales than what is written about the tech behind it .....why engage in black arts on some internet side that will be read by very few of your intended customers just show great looking games on display on a TV in a store .

Come now let's not get paranoid over tech talk there is no hidden internet force sent out by Microsoft to muddy the waters that would be a waste of money in my opinion as you are reaching only a very small minority of your intended customers .

Again just my opinion after reading a very entertaining 50 or 60 pagers of paranoid gamers believing the gaming world is out to pull the wall over there eyes exspecialy Microsoft .

Just look at the games are they good looking are they fun base your buying choices on that and I'm sure you won't regret your choice .

Its always work for me :)
 
I may be paranoid cockoo gamer but when I am not lurking B3D forums I am also spending some of my time working as counselor. And I can say that using internet and social media gossip for PR is as widespread and common as it can be. I am not talking about MSFT only, but also Sony and other companies, big or small - they all do it. Sometimes it results in legal action sometimes it's rather innocent (like in this case).
 
After reading 50 or 60 pages of this post ......I'm left thinking wow .....come now Microsoft don't have to talk about there tech .

Developers are under NDA until certain dates .....what these dates are I don't know .
But believing Microsoft are spreading force information as some sort of dark and dirty campagnne to show there new machine in a better light is just plain cockoo ....in my opinion .

Games shown so far show Microsoft's new Xbox to be a very capable machine they don't need to try and trick buyers just show the games if they look good people will buy or not buy .

A game shown on TV looking good is far more important to sales than what is written about the tech behind it .....why engage in black arts on some internet side that will be read by very few of your intended customers just show great looking games on display on a TV in a store .

Come now let's not get paranoid over tech talk there is no hidden internet force sent out by Microsoft to muddy the waters that would be a waste of money in my opinion as you are reaching only a very small minority of your intended customers .

Again just my opinion after reading a very entertaining 50 or 60 pagers of paranoid gamers believing the gaming world is out to pull the wall over there eyes exspecialy Microsoft .

Just look at the games are they good looking are they fun base your buying choices on that and I'm sure you won't regret your choice .

Its always work for me :)

I think it's naive in the extreme to think this kind of thing doesn't happen. In fact it's fairly common knowledge that companies do sometimes deliberately leak "secret" information to the press for PR reasons.

Hell it's a proven fact (as stated in a post above) that Samsung engaged in far more underhanded tactics than what is being suggested here of Micosoft but while we know a large company like Samsung (and others) engage in these type of activities you think it's "cockoo" (lol) to believe Microsoft capable of the same?

Lets be clear, no-ones claiming that Microsoft have made up complete lies about the XB1 and then deliberately leaked those lies to developers in order to support their internet warriors. This is simply a case of Microsoft seeing the general online perception (and yes online perception has an impact on retail since it filters into tech sites and gaming magazines) that their console is weaker than their competitors and wanting to release some information that might partially reverse that perception. A very easy way to do this is to take some aspect of the hardware that can be truthfully represented a particular way but in doing so actually makes the product appear better than it is, and then leak it to the media. This "theory" of increased throughput of the esram which is likely never attainable in the real world is a perfect example of that.

Another perfect example is how Microsoft claimed the Xbox 360 was a 1TFLOP machine (counting all the fixed function hardware) and in turn Sony countered by saying the PS3 was 2 TFLOPs (more than PS4!). This type of thing is not unprecidented. I'd go as far to say that Sony's description of the PS4 as a "Supercharged PC Architecture" is another example of the same. Sure you can argue in some senses it is an imporved PC architecture but the statement is more aimed at the masses who have no clue about hardware and just assume that statement means the PS4 is more powerful than any PC available. Misleading but not necessarily untrue.
 
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Besides all that MS has shown little interest in discussing any aspect of Durango's technical specs. They are perfectly comfortable apparently with the near ubiquitous assumption that PS4 is more powerful.

I think they are actually doing the opposite by not going into specs war. This gen they did and got 1uped in pretty much every possible spec by sony, who banked and rolled on the assumption that Ps3 was going to be much more powerful than 360.

Even if they think XBO can be competitive with Ps4 performance wise, outlining the lower specs would give them no back up to their claims on how powerful the xbox is and they would give sony ammo to play the we are going to be so much more powerful card again.

I mean, other than a Jack Tretton interview at E3, where he said he though that even launch games would already show a difference between the systems, have they even tried to direct compare both machines now?
 
The eSRAM stuff was apparently from developer sources. I'm not sure that keeping the dev environment up to date should count as PR from MS.

Guess we will find out when MS updates the SDK documentation with the 88% increase in the performance of the ESRAM from previously unknown processing cycle holes.
 
Yeahhh. A company that has PR mouthpieces in place decides that the best way to advertise an obscure number is through the grapevine.

I think you need to up your meds, the paranoia is coming back. I worked at MS for 9 years, and in my experience, they're just not that convoluted.

You are talking to Brad... I will admit that though its its very interesting that DF which has been considered a cornerstone of truth and validity throughout the last generation and into this generation is now being questioned so robustly by certain populations of the gaming world. It is curious also that have moved into the 192 GB/s camp even though what we know to date is that that is an ideal case under special circumstances.

When it all does come out in the wash we will get to see the quality of the resources DF has relied upon for their position for ourselves.
 
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I think it's Niave in the extreme to think this kind of thing doesn't happen. In fact it's fairly common knowledge that companies do sometimes deliberately leak "secret" information to the press for PR reasons.

Hell it's a proven fact (as stated in a post above) that Samsung engaged in far more underhanded tactics than what is being suggested here of Micosoft but while we know a large company like Samsung (and others) engage in these type of activities you think it's "cockoo" (lol) to believe Microsoft capable of the same?

The thing is your starting from a piont of view that believes its already happening with out proof .
Where is the proof of microsoft doing this until someone proves it its all talk .just like the so called power difference between these two machines it may or may not exist one way or the other .

I look at launch games for both machines that are first party exclusives and i'd argue Microsoft's games look better ......until the first bunch of multi platform games are shown nothing is certain about which one is more powerful .
A bunch of numbers bigger or smaller do not tell the whole picture one way or the other .
I'll be buying both machines Microsoft first because of kinect 2 I'm a sucker for new impressive tech and kinect is impressive tech .Sony later when they get there first party studios going .
 
I consider the 'PR communication strategy' talk in violation of the temp rule announced here regards discussing sources. There's certainly nothing technical about that talk whatsoever and nothing worthy of this forum. Any follow-up posts will be accompanied with a temp 2 week ban.

If you have replied to an OT post before reading this (posted reply, read to end of thread), I suggest you edit your reply...
 
Hey a new DF article:

Xbox One is designed to be always-on for 10 years

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-why-xbox-one-is-cool-and-quiet

... and with that 200-400 MHz bump ??!! What a quiet monster of a machine :D


our understanding is that final development hardware - which is a complete match for retail silicon - started rolling out to developers early in July and remains extremely quiet.

Does this mean 12 ... ?? ;-)

Slightly more seriously I am glad we won't be seeing any heat related failure rates like with the 360. Good for MS.
 
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Ah there ya go 12 GB !!!!!! so final tally GCN 2.0 APU clocked to 2 GHz with 1 Ghz GPU, ~200 gB/sec bandwidth, 12 GB and stays on for 10 years ! ;) plus Infinite Cloud Power to round it all off.

Nothing of this will happen!

Nevertheless, I am curious to know more about Cloud possibilities for the next gen...
But "Cloud" at the moment has become a fanboys tool & topic (for both side, for positive or negative purposes...)...
Maybe in the future we could talk about it as soon as more info will be available.
 
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-why-xbox-one-is-cool-and-quiet

AMD's Jaguar CPU architecture is also highly energy efficient - it's designed with tablets in mind. Even factoring in the DDR3, ESRAM and custom silicon, we should expect see a complete system power draw that's a world away from the 'power at all costs' approach to the launch versions of the Xbox 360 and PS3, which used in the region of 170-200W.

To illustrate just how far power efficiency has come since the current-gen consoles arrived, our "target Xbox One" PC test rig with an overclocked 4.3GHz i7 and underclocked Radeon HD 7850, consumed 220-230W playing Crysis 3.

Not the best comparison really
 
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Nothing of this will happen!

Nevertheless, I am curious to know more about Cloud possibilities for the next gen...
But "Cloud" at the moment has become a fanboys tool & topic (for both side, for positive or negative purposes...)...
Maybe in the future we could talk about it as soon as more info will be available.

Well according to many XB1 fans the lack of the 24 hour check-in means that the Cloud will have to wait till the next next generation. I don't buy the logic but... by the way DF is referring to 192 gB/s in it's subsequent articles even though it's a bit ... early for such a suggestion.
 
Hey a new DF article:

Xbox One is designed to be always-on for 10 years

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-why-xbox-one-is-cool-and-quiet

Good to see some confirmation on what I've been speculating on as the reason for the large size. Basically they looked at high end home theater amplifiers that are designed to last for years on passive cooling and combined it with a solid low noise active cooling design from the PC side of things for when gaming. Large open [strike]radial[/strike] axial fans are always significantly quieter than blower style fans.

It's encouraging that the console was (if the article is to be believed) overdesigned with a design target of 24/7 operation over 10 years.

I do wonder however, if that design target also takes into consideration potential dust accumulation over 10 years. For idle/media it shouldn't matter much. But for gaming there's the possibility of the fan needing to rotate faster later on in life to compensate for the lower cooling performance of dust coated cooling fins.

Regards,
SB
 
I do wonder however, if that design target also takes into consideration potential dust accumulation over 10 years. For idle/media it shouldn't matter much. But for gaming there's the possibility of the fan needing to rotate faster later on in life to compensate for the lower cooling performance of dust coated cooling fins.
Are there really no solutions to that liek, I dunno, Teflon coated blades? We have a constant and tiny particles that weigh nothing. It shouldn't be that hard to keep them moving through the system without settling.
 
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