Digital Foundry Article Technical Discussion Archive [2012]

[kagemaru]

So this is why is more weird. SSAO & light shaft can handle even better with a custom version of UE3.

No, we can't say that these effects should be handled better because Gearbox has modified the engine. They modified the engine to handle what they need, such as larger environments and probably more enemies for example. That doesn't mean they optimized or modified anything relating to SSAO or light shafts, they may be using Epic's implementation for both of these effects.

Basically just because it's a custom version of UE3, that doesn't mean these effects should be easier to pull off.

 

[assurdum]

No, we can't say that these effects should be handled better because Gearbox has modified the engine. They modified the engine to handle what they need, such as larger environments and probably more enemies for example. That doesn't mean they optimized or modified anything relating to SSAO or light shafts, they may be using Epic's implementation for both of these effects.

Basically just because it's a custom version of UE3, that doesn't mean these effects should be easier to pull off.

I continue to not understand your post, sorry. You don't know what we are talking but you continue to retract my points without specify anything of clear. First you tries to polemize to me because I have substained if 360 can handle SSAO & light shaft what's wrong on ps3 , you said a generic gpu 'fault', memories when you don't know how works, than you retract saying your, are genuine question. And now you continue in this way. I'm not saying a custom version of UE3 handle SSAO or light shafts easily, I have said if you working to customize an engine, you are even more facilitate to find alternative way to use those effects than the standard tools; why I have to explain even this, I though it was clear. You post a lot 'we can't say' but you don't know even what we can't say... If you don't know how to retract my point, just don't reply, is that easy.

 

[kagemaru]

I continue to not understand your post, sorry. You don't know what we are talking but you continue to retract my points without specify anything of clear. First you tries to polemize to me because I have substained if 360 can handle SSAO & light shaft what's wrong on ps3 , you said a generic gpu 'fault', memories when you don't know how works, than you retract saying your, are genuine question. And now you continue in this way. I'm not saying a custom version of UE3 handle SSAO or light shafts easily, I have said if you working to customize an engine, you are even more facilitate to find alternative way to use those effects than the standard tools; why I have to explain even this, I though it was clear. You post a lot 'we can't say' but you don't know even why, this is really a weird way discuss in a tech forum. If you don't know how to retract my point, just don't reply, is that easy.

I'm not retracting or polemizing anything. I'm also not specifically saying it's the GPU's fault, again that was only one of the possibilities why, not an exact explanation.

Customizing an engine may allow you to find alternative ways to produce an end result, but we don't know if they did any work with SSAO or light shafts. There is a finite amount of time these studios have to work on these games. So, for example, if the extent of their customization was to improve streaming to allow larger levels, and nothing else, then their work wouldn't have made a difference to how easy it would be to add SSAO or light shafts to the ps3 version.

So again I'm not retracting anything, on my end it looks like you're making some assumptions without us having the proper knowledge of all the work they did on the engine. What you need to find out is how these effects are done on the PS3, the cost of the effects, and then we could see where they were coming up short. If the GPU handles both in UE3, then it's safe to say they couldn't spare the GPU time to render the effects.

 

[Turok]

I'm not saying a custom version of UE3 handle SSAO or light shafts easily, I have said if you working to customize an engine, you are even more facilitate to find alternative way to use those effects than the standard tools; why I have to explain even this, I though it was clear. You post a lot 'we can't say' but you don't know even what we can't say... If you don't know how to retract my point, just don't reply, is that easy.

If the effects aren't in the game, it is probably safe to assume that they were not a priority over other things, like the framerate.

You haven't provided any sort of proof of the GPU cost of these effects on the PS3 version of Borderlands 2, so there's no point to "retract" because you don't have one.

 

[assurdum]

If the effects aren't in the game, it is probably safe to assume that they were not a priority over other things, like the framerate.

You haven't provided any sort of proof of the GPU cost of these effects on the PS3 version of Borderlands 2, so there's no point to "retract" because you don't have one.

I'm ok with the first part of the reply. I missed the point of the second, my apologies.From when we have to proof the precise number of the cost of the effects to substain some claims? Anyway effects cost the same in every single engine, I don't understand what do you trying to say. I can just claim light shaft not cost in performance or RAM to sacrifice something; well, it has some cost, but it could run even in the first xbox hardware, so it's something really easy to get on ps3 without problem. About SSAO, this effect on ps3 most of time works in spe, not needs of GPU works, but I imagine DOF don't left space of SSAO, could be a proibitive cost. But I continue to find unexplainable the lack of dynamic shaft, with my limited knowledge, of course.

 

[kagemaru]

I'm ok with the first part of the reply. I missed the point of the second, my apologies.From when we have to proof the precise number of the cost of the effects to substain some claims? I can just say light shaft not cost performance; well, it has some cost, but it could run even in the first xbox hardware, so it's something really easy to get on ps3 without problem. About SSAO, this effect on ps3 most of time works in spu, not needs of GPU works, but I imagine DOF don't left space of SSAO, could be a proibitive cost. But I continue to find unexplainable the lack of dynamic shaft, with my limited knowledge, of course.

You cannot look at what one game is doing, on any system, and just assume the effect is easy to add to any other game.

Also, it doesn't matter if SSAO can be done on the SPUs, what matters is how it's done in UE3. If it's not done on the SPUs in UE3, then the SPUs don't apply to the effect in UE3 titles (unless they modify the engine in that regard).

 

[assurdum]

You cannot look at what one game is doing, on any system, and just assume the effect is easy to add to any other game.

Also, it doesn't matter if SSAO can be done on the SPUs, what matters is how it's done in UE3. If it's not done on the SPUs in UE3, then the SPUs don't apply to the effect in UE3 titles (unless they modify the engine in that regard).

They have modified the engine. is no more a standard UE3. Anyway the only clear response, is probably don't care that much about light shaft on ps3, seems clear. About SSAO, it's the only lack who I can't really biasis, ps3 has DOF.

 

[kagemaru]

They have modified the engine. is no more a standard UE3. Anyway the only clear response, is probably don't care that much about light shaft on ps3, seems clear. About SSAO, it's the only lack who I can't really biasis, ps3 has DOF.

We don't know what they modified and to what extent. You don't just read that a studio optimized/modified an engine and assume that every bit is a custom piece of code.

So no, them not caring about light shafts on the PS3 is not the only clear response. We're 7 years into this generation, on a tech forum, and people still want to claim developers don't care? Really? You should know better than this reading these forums.

 

[assurdum]

]We don't know what they modified and to what extent. You don't just read that a studio optimized/modified an engine and assume that every bit is a custom piece of code.[/B]

So no, them not caring about light shafts on the PS3 is not the only clear response. We're 7 years into this generation, on a tech forum, and people still want to claim developers don't care? Really? You should know better than this reading these forums.

I'm done, really. Seem pretty clear you only want to give me a lesson to how post in this forum indeed to talk/disguise about tech. Good, I abandon the discussion, I have not interest in this kind of discussion. My big apologies for the terrible ot.

 

[kagemaru]

All I'm saying is falling back on the tired excuse that the devs "don't care" should not be a suitable response around here.

You had three separate people respond to you and all you can ascertain from the discussion is that they don't care about light shafts on the PS3.

 

[AlNom]

Unless you have exact quotes on the cost of SSAO and the light shafts on the PS3, and how they are rendered on the system.

For 360, the light shafts cost ~2ms and SSAO is ~3ms.

They actually showed the code for the light shafts at GDC earlier this year, and it was pretty ridiculous on texture lookups (256 lookups). They were comparing it to their mobile implementation, which moved the heavy stuff to vertex shaders and split it into several passes. They did mention a lower quality result, but they didn't directly compare it to the original shader in the presentation.

I suppose you'd have to ask the coder why they couldn't offer a choice in the matter. The original shader being so heavy on dependent texture reads would stall things quite a bit.

 

[Ruskie]

That sounds awfully lot. Didn't Crytek mention their motion blur and dof is 1ms all together on consoles? I remember reading SSAO took 1ms too.

 

[Lucid_Dreamer]

It, also, depends on the quality of the SSAO implementation. The code and it's implementation can drastically alter the speed of a technique's execution.

In UC2, for example, their SSAO implementation originally took 6ms (IIRC). Through unrolling loops they got it down to 2ms. Then, using the odd and even pipelines finally took their SSAO implementation down to 1ms. It's all about being able to take advantage of the hardware through software. Perhaps, Gearbox has problems doing just that.

 

[AlNom]

Eh, the SSAO and lightshafts are just standard checkbox features of the engine. They're more focused on the toon shading.
http://graphics.cs.williams.edu/courses/SRG10/borderlands.pptx.zip

 

[kagemaru]

For 360, the light shafts cost ~2ms and SSAO is ~3ms.

They actually showed the code for the light shafts at GDC earlier this year, and it was pretty ridiculous on texture lookups (256 lookups). They were comparing it to their mobile implementation, which moved the heavy stuff to vertex shaders and split it into several passes. They did mention a lower quality result, but they didn't directly compare it to the original shader in the presentation.

I suppose you'd have to ask the coder why they couldn't offer a choice in the matter. The original shader being so heavy on dependent texture reads would stall things quite a bit.

Eh, the SSAO and lightshafts are just standard checkbox features of the engine. They're more focused on the toon shading.
http://graphics.cs.williams.edu/courses/SRG10/borderlands.pptx.zip

Hey thanks Al.

It, also, depends on the quality of the SSAO implementation. The code and it's implementation can drastically alter the speed of a technique's execution.

In UC2, for example, their SSAO implementation originally took 6ms (IIRC). Through unrolling loops they got it down to 2ms. Then, using the odd and even pipelines finally took their SSAO implementation down to 1ms. It's all about being able to take advantage of the hardware through software. Perhaps, Gearbox has problems doing just that.

lol

 

[nightshade]

Well the first game had the same issues, lightshafts missing in PS3 version (Donno if 360 version had SSAO). Also has there been an UE3 tittle on PS3 with SSAO implemented ?

 

[AlNom]

I do recall War for Cybertron having it, though that game had all sorts of shadowing issues (even PC version). Dunno about the sequel.

 

[Gitaroo]

homefront, that punisher games on PSN both got SSAO. But they all looks like the dev custom created SSAO than the one that is currently on 360 and pc games.I think its just not used due to performance.

 

[assurdum]

Well the first game had the same issues, lightshafts missing in PS3 version (Donno if 360 version had SSAO). Also has there been an UE3 tittle on PS3 with SSAO implemented ?

Suda51 game has it & even better implement of 360 version.

 

[(((interference)))]

It's strange that Borderlands 2 doesn't have any kind of AA, you think spending some cycles on FXAA would have more benefits than spending it on lightshafts.
Especially when your art style is based on high contrast, thick pen outlines around everything.
They're not too many cartoons/comics that have jaggies