Digital Foundry Article Technical Discussion Archive [2012]

[assurdum]

I would think at this point, it wouldn't matter which system was the lead when porting to the PC since a typical gaming PC has so much more performance. Still with that said, I would assume it's easier to port from the 360 to PC than porting from the PS3 to PC. We typically don't see low resolution buffers on PC games, so bandwidth provided by the eDRAM doesn't look to be any kind of obstacle. Maybe one of the devs here can comment on this specifically, but what you're saying still makes no sense to me.

Ok you don't know exactly how works in this case but you like to repeat what l'm saying not has sense for you, good for me

 

[kagemaru]

Just look at Assassin's Creed (the series)... the PC ports aren't all that nice, either. VERY low resolution shadows (even on highest settings), massive LODding etc... although any PC gpu made since 2010, even lower end models, could easily handle higher resolution buffers with ease. But they (aka the devs) don't even bother giving you the option. In AC1, you could retro-hack it via the settings ini, but that was TAKEN OUT with AC2 and later games. It's a real shame.

Well maybe I should have said good PC ports.

 

[DieH@rd]

Can I beg here for a MGS Ground Zeroes DF article?

 

[ZeroEx]

Can I beg here for a MGS Ground Zeroes DF article?

I would 2nd that request
I'm interested in how well PS3 and 360 would handle a game such as this.

It seems like a lot of graphical effects and details shown in the video, would definitely be able to work on current gen consoles.

 

[DieH@rd]

Yeah they did not go wild on effects and geometry, but art style and cinematic approach is phenomenal.

 

[user542745831]

I would 2nd that request
I'm interested in how well PS3 and 360 would handle a game such as this.

It seems like a lot of graphical effects and details shown in the video, would definitely be able to work on current gen consoles.

Read:

http://blog.us.playstation.com/2012/09/01/pax-2012-metal-gear-solid-ground-zeroes-is-coming-to-ps3/

[...]

Though running on a PC, Kojima stated that the footage was comparable to what would be seen on the PS3 version of the game.

[...]

Kojima also confirmed that the demo was running on PC hardware that was similarly equipped to PS3, and that the final game should closely resemble the demo video.

[...]

 

[Kameradschaft]

Face-Off: Borderlands 2

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-borderlands-2-face-off

After reading the article I wonder why another UE3 title refuses to use FXAA or any other PPAA solution on the consoles when we see a lot of other engines go that way...weird because the IQ (as also mentioned in the article) could've been a lot better with some form of AA.

So what's wrong with UE3 games and FXAA? Is it difficult to implement? AFAIK there isn't an UE3 based game that uses FXAA...hell the upcoming Dishonored which also uses UE3 IIRC doesn't look like it uses any form of AA.

 

[AlNom]

UE3 already has FXAA and MLAA in the engine. It's up to the devs to enable it, but whether that fits within their frame time budget is hard to say.

edit:

Well, actually, if they couldn't afford the SSAO or the light shafts on PS3, then FXAA wouldn't likely be affordable either (just more GPU-time). The framerate analysis already looks like they drop frames here and there as it is. It could get worse with co-op too.

 

[user542745831]

After reading the article I wonder why another UE3 title refuses to use FXAA or any other PPAA solution on the consoles when we see a lot of other engines go that way...weird because the IQ (as also mentioned in the article) could've been a lot better with some form of AA.

So what's wrong with UE3 games and FXAA? Is it difficult to implement? AFAIK there isn't an UE3 based game that uses FXAA...hell the upcoming Dishonored which also uses UE3 IIRC doesn't look like it uses any form of AA.

See for example:

Playstation 3

Alice: Madness Returns = 1280x720 (MLAA)
Mass Effect 3 = 1280x720 (FXAA)
Spec Ops: The Line = ~1120x640 (light FXAA?)

Xbox 360

Mass Effect 3 = 1280x720 (FXAA)
Spec Ops: The Line = ~1200x680 (light FXAA?)

?

 

[Kameradschaft]

UE3 already has FXAA and MLAA in the engine. It's up to the devs to enable it, but whether that fits within their frame time budget is hard to say.

edit:

Well, actually, if they couldn't afford the SSAO or the light shafts on PS3, then FXAA wouldn't likely be affordable either (just more GPU-time). The framerate analysis already looks like they drop frames here and there as it is. It could get worse with co-op too.

I guess they should add FXAA early on to optimize the frame-rate around that along with the other effects like SSAO and light shafts? oh well who knows maybe the experimented with it a bit and just decided that was not worth it - a tech interview from DF with someone from Gearbox will be nice.

It's just that is weird that lately we're seeing the majority of games/engines implement some form of PPAA expect UE3 games...I guess I should stop expecting Gears Judgement to have FXAA.

See for example:

My bad I forgot about Mass Effect 3 and didn't know that Spec Ops had any form of AA, thought it was sub-HD with no AA at all.

Either way my point still stands, there are only 3 UE3 games that implement some form of PPAA.

 

[sebbbi]

So what's wrong with UE3 games and FXAA? Is it difficult to implement? AFAIK there isn't an UE3 based game that uses FXAA...hell the upcoming Dishonored which also uses UE3 IIRC doesn't look like it uses any form of AA.

FXAA uses around 1 ms on consoles, if it can combined to some existing post processing pass (otherwise it will use around 1.5 ms). Assuming the worst case (1.5 ms), it takes approximate 10% of 60 fps game and 5% of 30 fps game frame budget.

Do you have that much GPU cycles to spend? Would you instead add something else (for example SSAO, more objects, effects or better lighting)? Does your content have lots of subpixel geometry that causes bad shimmering with FXAA (long view range, fences, phone wires, etc)? Does your art style depend on sharp texture details (FXAA slightly blurs high contrast textures)? It's a compromise solution. Most game designers do not want to change their design / art direction (no fences/wires, soft background, etc) because of some arcane technical limitation by a post process AA filter. Technology should enable designers / artists to create the game they want, not limit their creativity. I fully understand why some developers do not want to compromise with FXAA.

We are using FXAA because it suited our game pretty well (there are some problems in further away geometry, but we have soft fog and DOF to minimize the problems). It also was the only antialiasing method we could afford (in a 60 fps game). If we could have afforded better techniques, we would have used them. Console development is all about compromises. I am still not 100% sure FXAA was the right call, because without it we could have afforded a cheap SSAO filter (and the ambient lighting outlook is one of the things I dislike most in our current technology).

 

[user542745831]

Just wondering:

We are using FXAA because it suited our game pretty well (there are some problems in further away geometry, but we have soft fog and DOF to minimize the problems). It also was the only antialiasing method we could afford (in a 60 fps game). If we could have afforded better techniques, we would have used them. Console development is all about compromises. I am still not 100% sure FXAA was the right call, because without it we could have afforded a cheap SSAO filter (and the ambient lighting outlook is one of the things I dislike most in our current technology).

Have you also tried SMAA instead of FXAA ?

 

[Kameradschaft]

FXAA uses around 1 ms on consoles, if it can combined to some existing post processing pass (otherwise it will use around 1.5 ms). Assuming the worst case (1.5 ms), it takes approximate 10% of 60 fps game and 5% of 30 fps game frame budget.

Do you have that much GPU cycles to spend? Would you instead add something else (for example SSAO, more objects, effects or better lighting)? Does your content have lots of subpixel geometry that causes bad shimmering with FXAA (long view range, fences, phone wires, etc)? Does your art style depend on sharp texture details (FXAA slightly blurs high contrast textures)? It's a compromise solution. Most game designers do not want to change their design / art direction (no fences/wires, soft background, etc) because of some arcane technical limitation by a post process AA filter. Technology should enable designers / artists to create the game they want, not limit their creativity. I fully understand why some developers do not want to compromise with FXAA.

We are using FXAA because it suited our game pretty well (there are some problems in further away geometry, but we have soft fog and DOF to minimize the problems). It also was the only antialiasing method we could afford (in a 60 fps game). If we could have afforded better techniques, we would have used them. Console development is all about compromises. I am still not 100% sure FXAA was the right call, because without it we could have afforded a cheap SSAO filter (and the ambient lighting outlook is one of the things I dislike most in our current technology).

Thanks for taking the time to answer a maybe dumb question.

That's why I like this board, you actually learn things and at the same time you appreciate more the work and the hard decisions that developers have to make...thanks again sebbi.

 

[assurdum]

Face-Off: Borderlands 2

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-borderlands-2-face-off

After reading the article I wonder why another UE3 title refuses to use FXAA or any other PPAA solution on the consoles when we see a lot of other engines go that way...weird because the IQ (as also mentioned in the article) could've been a lot better with some form of AA.

So what's wrong with UE3 games and FXAA? Is it difficult to implement? AFAIK there isn't an UE3 based game that uses FXAA...hell the upcoming Dishonored which also uses UE3 IIRC doesn't look like it uses any form of AA.

To be honest I wonder more why some developers has that great problem to use SSAO or light shaft with UE3 on ps3, remain unexplainable to me.

 

[kagemaru]

To be honest I wonder more why some developers has that great problem to use SSAO or light shaft with UE3 on ps3, remain unexplainable to me.

It's been a while since I've read any of the papers from Epic on the improvements they've made to UE3. I know they detailed their new motion blur, but maybe you can look and see how they did their SSAO and light shafts. Could just be the case of not having enough GPU time to run the effects as Al already mentioned above. The effects exist on UE3 for the ps3 since other games have used them, but I'm not familiar with how they are implemented on the system.

 

[assurdum]

It's been a while since I've read any of the papers from Epic on the improvements they've made to UE3. I know they detailed their new motion blur, but maybe you can look and see how they did their SSAO and light shafts. Could just be the case of not having enough GPU time to run the effects as Al already mentioned above. The effects exist on UE3 for the ps3 since other games have used them, but I'm not familiar with how they are implemented on the system.

SSAO it's not passed via gpu time but with SPE on ps3 but I don't know why give that problem on ps3 with UE3, I don't remember a single game with use a ue3+ssao. Anyway ps3 has proved a lot of times how can handle magnificiently this (I have in mind L.A. noire, infamous 2) Light shafts not cost almost anything, it's a 'trick' in the bloom setting if I remember right, Batman use this on ps3 too. If even DF article has surprised like to me about those lacks, something wrong is there at the end. Probably they have preferred the precise DOF, I imagine it's very expensive in a so ancient console but light shaft lacking it's ridicolous, it's something we can handle easily.

 

[kagemaru]

SSAO it's not passed via gpu time but with SPE on ps3 but I don't know why give that problem on ps3 with UE3, I don't remember a single game with use a ue3+ssao. Anyway ps3 has proved a lot of times how can handle magnificiently this (I have in mind L.A. noire, infamous 2) Light shafts not cost almost anything, it's a 'trick' in the bloom setting if I remember right, Batman use this on ps3 too. If even DF article has surprised like to me about those lacks, something wrong is there at the end. Probably they have preferred the precise DOF, I imagine it's very expensive in a so ancient console but light shaft lacking it's ridicolous, it's something we can handle easily.

Are you saying SSAO is handled on the SPUs in UE3? Also IIRC Shadow of the damn is a UE3 game and it had SSAO on the PS3.

Do you know how much it costs to have light shafts on the PS3 in UE3?

And just because one engine or even one game on the same engine can have effects X, Y, and Z, that doesn't mean every game on the same engine can run the same effects. Every game has a different performance profile and can allocate resources to different effects.

 

[assurdum]

Are you saying SSAO is handled on the SPUs in UE3? Also IIRC Shadow of the damn is a UE3 game and it had SSAO on the PS3.

Do you know how much it costs to have light shafts on the PS3 in UE3?

And just because one engine or even one game on the same engine can have effects X, Y, and Z, that doesn't mean every game on the same engine can run the same effects. Every game has a different performance profile and can allocate resources to different effects.

Yes I know how works light shafts, approximately, I know SSAO works on SPU, where is the problem of UE3 to handle that? You know something of more specific? You are welcome, I really appreciate it indeed to do a generic statement like your post. I have just claims how light shaft doesn't cost almost nothing, you just express a generic statement about ps3 gpu limit & ue3 work different when you even don't know how work where is the point to said that? You have fears I overstimate the ps3 hardware? I appreciate if you have deeper argument about it indeed to polimize about ... nothing. With all respect.

 

[kagemaru]

Yes I know how much works, approximately, you know something of more specific? You are welcome, I really appreciate it indeed to do a generic statement like your post. I have just claims how light shaft doesn't cost almost nothing, you just express a generic statement about ps3 gpu limit & ue3 work different when you even don't know how work where is the point to said that? You have fears I overstimate the ps3 hardware? I appreciate if you have deeper argument about it indeed to polimize about ... nothing. With all respect.

Honestly I wasn't arguing anything, my prior questions were genuine since again it's been a long time since I've read any papers on UE3. You seemed sure on the cost of these effects and the only thing I'm saying for sure is that just because Game A has an effect, that doesn't mean Game B will as well. I'm not trying to give any generic statements about the PS3 or the GPU, I'm just saying one of the possibilities.

Unless you have exact quotes on the cost of SSAO and the light shafts on the PS3, and how they are rendered on the system, we can't really tell why they aren't in the PS3 version of BL2. Edit: also based on the DF article, it seems like Gearbox has made a lot of optimizations/customization to UE3, enough to rename the engine. So there's no telling how they are doing things differently from the default UE3.

 

[assurdum]

Honestly I wasn't arguing anything, my prior questions were genuine since again it's been a long time since I've read any papers on UE3. You seemed sure on the cost of these effects and the only thing I'm saying for sure is that just because Game A has an effect, that doesn't mean Game B will as well. I'm not trying to give any generic statements about the PS3 or the GPU, I'm just saying one of the possibilities.

Unless you have exact quotes on the cost of SSAO and the light shafts on the PS3, and how they are rendered on the system, we can't really tell why they aren't in the PS3 version of BL2. Edit: also based on the DF article, it seems like Gearbox has made a lot of optimizations/customization to UE3, enough to rename the engine. So there's no telling how they are doing things differently from the default UE3.

So this is why is more weird. SSAO & light shaft can handle even better with a custom version of UE3.