Digital Foundry Article Technical Discussion Archive [2010]

[patsu]

Yap, the single frame implementation should save 16.7ms (compared to a regular 30fps game) because the dynamic geometries are rendered at 60fps for real. If there are other more time consuming tasks in the critical path, then the input lag should be as good as a regular 30fps game (i.e., no 16.7ms saving).

In both cases, the user will see smoother (60fps) animation thanks to the technique.

 

[(((interference)))]

Isn't this basically what my 120Hz Bravia from 2007 is already doing?

Would it make sense for game devs to implement this when HDTVs manufacturers are already incorporating this technology into their sets (and all 3DTVs will require this by definition).

I think input lag is what really differentiates 30fps titles from 60fps titles, the actual visual refresh is not as big a deal. Certainly implementing things like better AA, a higher resolution, better particle effects, more enemies on screen etc are preferable to 120hz interpolation.

 

[Fafalada]

I think input lag is what really differentiates 30fps titles from 60fps titles, the actual visual refresh is not as big a deal.

As I noted in another thread, a lot of titles on the market already run 30fps updates with 60fps rendering. Input lag is only an issue with certain game-designs/genres, while 'visual-refresh' is always preferred to be higher.

parts of it can be tailored to render a slightly different perspective for stereoscopic 3D.

I was thinking more along the lines of having more frame-time to render stereo camera views (and yes, velocity buffer can be shared).

 

[joker454]

Isn't this basically what my 120Hz Bravia from 2007 is already doing?

Except that tv's do it terribly Can't blame them though because all they have is a color buffer to go on and they have to guesstimate the rest. The big difference with the gaming approach is that they have lots of other info to go because they are generating every pixel you see on screen, so they can potentially make this work reasonably well. Rev 1.0 may still have some weirdness, but it's still interesting to see where this can go.

 

[patsu]

Touche ! The single frame implementation is pretty interesting.

 

[(((interference)))]

Except that tv's do it terribly Can't blame them though because all they have is a color buffer to go on and they have to guesstimate the rest. The big difference with the gaming approach is that they have lots of other info to go because they are generating every pixel you see on screen, so they can potentially make this work reasonably well. Rev 1.0 may still have some weirdness, but it's still interesting to see where this can go.

I don't think they do it terribly I have a 2007 Bravia which was the very first iteration of the technology and there is virtually no artifacting at all on the Standard setting, on the High setting there is shimmering which can be quite noticeable, depending on the title (on some titles like GTA4, Forza it's barely noticeable ) so I certainly wouldn't call it terrible by any stretch, especially considering this is a first gen implementation - and I bet most gamers would hardly notice the shimmering any more than they do torn frames etc. unless you pointed it out to them.

As I noted in another thread, a lot of titles on the market already run 30fps updates with 60fps rendering. Input lag is only an issue with certain game-designs/genres, while 'visual-refresh' is always preferred to be higher.


I was thinking more along the lines of having more frame-time to render stereo camera views (and yes, velocity buffer can be shared).

Does COD, GT5, Forza, the 60fps fighting games etc. poll controller inputs at 30 fps or 60?

And I have never understood why it needs to be 60 fps, can't it be 45fps or something like COD runs at?
Is it just our propensity to like round numbers (and because 60 is twice 30)?

45 fps should let devs strike a balance between fluid visuals and graphical detail/ IQ.

 

[nightshade]

Does COD, GT5, Forza, the 60fps fighting games etc. poll controller inputs at 30 fps or 60?

COD has an average input lag of ~67ms, this is only possible with a 60FPS tittle. Same case with GT & Forza.

And I have never understood why it needs to be 60 fps Is it just our propensity to like round numbers (and because 60 is twice 30)?

45 fps should let devs strike a balance between fluid visuals and graphical detail/ IQ.

You can't have a v-locked 45FPS cause TVs don't have a refresh rate of 45hz, what you can have is a game like Call of Juarez:BIB...averages out at 40-45FPS with no v-lock, it can result to massive amount of tears & the input lag will still be no better than 30FPS tittles like UnchartedF/Halo 3.

or something like COD runs at

COD runs at 60FPS with your usual performance dips when things go hectic (as with all other games).

 

[Alucardx23]

Tech Interview: LucasArts' frame-rate upscaler
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-frame-rate-upscaler-tech-interview

 

[Silent_Buddha]

I don't think they do it terribly I have a 2007 Bravia which was the very first iteration of the technology and there is virtually no artifacting at all on the Standard setting, on the High setting there is shimmering which can be quite noticeable, depending on the title (on some titles like GTA4, Forza it's barely noticeable ) so I certainly wouldn't call it terrible by any stretch, especially considering this is a first gen implementation - and I bet most gamers would hardly notice the shimmering any more than they do torn frames etc. unless you pointed it out to them.



Does COD, GT5, Forza, the 60fps fighting games etc. poll controller inputs at 30 fps or 60?

And I have never understood why it needs to be 60 fps, can't it be 45fps or something like COD runs at?
Is it just our propensity to like round numbers (and because 60 is twice 30)?

45 fps should let devs strike a balance between fluid visuals and graphical detail/ IQ.

30 and 60 plays nicer with double buffered Vsync. With 45 fps, I believe you'd have no choice but to use triple buffering if you also wanted to vsync and have it display 45 fps.

Regards,
SB

 

[i nerini del buio]

30 and 60 plays nicer with double buffered Vsync. With 45 fps, I believe you'd have no choice but to use triple buffering if you also wanted to vsync and have it display 45 fps.

Regards,
SB

AFAIK gow3 does that (frame rate floating between 30 and 60 with an average of 45) and has a pretty ugly input lag.
I don't think going with triple buffering is a good choice for games. Devs should stick with rock solid 30 if they can't achieve 60fps

 

[(((interference)))]

You can't have a v-locked 45FPS cause TVs don't have a refresh rate of 45hz, what you can have is a game like Call of Juarez:BIB...averages out at 40-45FPS with no v-lock, it can result to massive amount of tears & the input lag will still be no better than 30FPS tittles like UnchartedF/Halo 3.

Oh, of course - completely forgot that TVs only have a refresh rate of 60 hz or higher.
Funny that COD runs in the high 40s but I almost never notice tearing - does it (say MW2) run at 60 fps for most of the time or is it more like low 50s, high 40s for the vast majority of gameplay?

 

[N_B]

Funny that COD runs in the high 40s but I almost never notice tearing

All current gen COD games are triple buffered, so you will never see any tearing.

- does it (say MW2) run at 60 fps for most of the time or is it more like low 50s, high 40s for the vast majority of gameplay?

It's typically ~45-60fps during normal gameplay (on 360, PS3 is a bit lower).

 

[assurdum]

AFAIK gow3 does that (frame rate floating between 30 and 60 with an average of 45) and has a pretty ugly input lag.
I don't think going with triple buffering is a good choice for games. Devs should stick with rock solid 30 if they can't achieve 60fps

What?

 

[Mastperf]

It's probably the frame rate fluctuation causing the lag he feels.

 

[i nerini del buio]

What?

well, that's true...
the first boss, for example, is a lagfest because of triple-buffering

they should have gone with 30fps double-buffered
gow2 on the ps2, with its screen tearing and 60fps, played a lot better imho

 

[nightshade]

well, that's true...
the first boss, for example, is a lagfest because of triple-buffering

I'll disagree here, most of the time its just the weapons & moves, not the input delay....beside GOW isn't exactly a game requiring lightning fast response.

they should have gone with 30fps double-buffered

I don't know if you are implying towards a soft v-sync solution or a double buffer + vsync (which is actually a horrible choice).
In either case the input delay would've been considerably more when compared to what it is currently. Beside triple buffering only adds 1 frame of delay ie. 16.66ms & that really isn't much even by fighting game standards (personal experience), let alone for a hack & slash game.

gow2 on the ps2, with its screen tearing and 60fps, played a lot better imho

Actually both on PS2 performed similar to GOW3 as far as framerate is concerned.

 

[i nerini del buio]

so it's not about triple-buffering but weapons&moves?
I definitely feel the game far less responsive than gow2...
maybe that's because of spu postprocessing (mlaa)?

 

[messyman]

I thought GOW3 was as responsive (if not better) as GOW Collection which was a pretty solid 60fps title.

 

[Devious]

Tech Analysis - Halo: Reach

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-halo-reach-tech-analysis-article

 

[dragonelite]

Hope digital foundry can get the bungie guys to have a interview.