Digital Foundry Article Technical Discussion Archive [2010]

Doesn't the only cost of AA on 360 come from tiling And at that resolution it probably won't be

 

UE3 has its own issues as to why MSAA isn't correct all the time. But MSAA isn't free with MRTs, or rather deferred shading/lighting. You basically end up super sampling on current console hardware. The cost can be optimized by runnning an edge detect and so you're only doing the "super-sampling" at edges where MSAA is concerned so that it is correct. There's a lot I'm skipping here btw.

What you're saying would be true for forward renderers.

 

As I mentioned in another thread, what a huge difference it would make if Sony could get Epic to include GoWAA in Unreal Engine 3 ... !

 

Digital Foundry has a video up of the presentation they and Eurogamer had by Marks last Thursday:

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-future-of-playstation-move-article

 

Grandmaster can You ask Dr. Marks why Move doesnt have analog stick? With analog stick and two Wands We would have completely next-generation controller for all kind of games. Now we can use both Wands only for games, where we cant [oh irony] move or navigation/DS3 + Wand for other games.

You cant make great Demon's Souls 2 or new Elder Scroll game without second for other weapon or shield and without movement - its just impossible. So great potential and so wasted by design.

 

That's why you have the sub controller...with the face buttons, L1/L2 & left analogue.

 

Read my post again Nightshade How can You move in Oblivion like game, when left wand is assignes to shield and right one to weapon? You cant without d-pad or analog stick.
Or how can You move on the ground in chameleon like game with only two Wands? You put one wand down and pick up DS3/Navigator? :> Its just ineffective.

 

I think that can be easily solved in various ways. For instance, you could move with the Move controller by pointing the Move controller to where you want to go, or by direct control through pushing the MOve controller forward or backward. Whenever you want to use the shield you simply press the Action button and have direct control of it while you're having the action button pressed. Alternatives / combinations could be to use the action button to move forward and the trigger button to move backward in the direction that you're aiming the shield (or sword, etc.).

The combination of two move controllers with their movement in space and along axis in combination with two big pressure/analog buttons should be more than enough. This is also discussed as such in another interview I posted in the Move thread earlier by the way, as this question has been asked to Marks already - he says the same thing: in their tests, users generally cannot control more than one analog directional input per hand without getting completely confused.

 

I think it would have been more functional if the Move controllers had analog sticks

 

... or add sensors to the nav controller so that it's exactly half a SIXAXIS.

That way they can keep Move simple and cheaper for motion games. They can also start to migrate DS3 into split controller model.

 

Technically that would make it more than half a sixaxis, as it would have all the motion senors, plus half of the buttons and analog sticks.

I would prefer them to explore the possibilities of using two Move controllers though. I think that this has far more potential. I think the navigation controller may be a stop-gap solution for anything that requires more than just one analog stick. And you can switch between moving your avatar and moving your weapon/arm or whatever with a simple press of one button. I've put a fair bit of thought into this already and think it could work, but of course we'll have to see it in practice first to be sure.

 

Using 2 Move controllers would be a solid step forward also, but expensive. It would mean that Move is a completely separate branch of control schemes from DS3. Can't reuse parts and skills.

... unless they make the pressure sensitive button an analog stick, a thumb pad, or at least tiltable.

 

I think Move is supposed to be the second analogue. For example in FPS games you'd have movement on the Nav/DS3 analogue, and turning/aiming via Move pointer. I think they said in an interview that using two thumbsticks AND pointing with Move all at the same time was just too many simultaneous inputs that it was too confusing and difficult to play.

I'd imagine trying to aim at something by turning the view with the right thumb on an analogue and moving the aiming reticule with the right hand at the same time would be very hard to do. Especially when you can do both with just the pointer (e.g. aiming when the pointer is in the middle part of the screen, and turning when it's at the edge).

 

Yes but I believe his point was that in something like, for example, a sword and shield game where you can use one move for sword movement and one move for shield movement (as was demo'd) there is then Zero way to move the character while fighting. I suppose you could have a button for step forward, but that's hardly going to result in compelling combat sequences.

I'm also of the belief that Move would have been a far more compelling, albeit more complex, controller if it had also included an analog stick or at the very least a D-pad.

Regards,
SB

 

Delete

 

Sony's argument against is that users would struggle with the coordination to move thumb control and the Move. They're really looking at it wrongly though, as the analogue wouldn't have to be used concurrently; just be there for when needed. In the above sword-fighting example, one can use Move for sword and shield arms, but there's no easy way to move. With an analogue nub on the Moves, the left hand could steer with the nub between fights, but the player can ignore it when they want to concentrate on fighting - it doesn't have to be used simultaneously. As Sony say, there are occassions where a controller and analogue stick/nub is the best interface option, in which case they want it ready to hand even if it's not going to be used in all cases. It could also be used for item selection with an 8-way compass interface, instead of like Sorcery, interrupting the display with a big menu.

The nub on PSP would be an ideal fit keeping the uninterrupted round form of the controller letting it be held in a full grip like a tennis-racquet or sword hilt, or with thumb on top to move the nub.

 

Nothing stops them from releasing a Move+ wand in the future with an analog nub on it. It wouldn't obsolete anything, the regular wands would stay around since most games would need those, but then people could buy a Move+ wand if they wanted for specific games.

 

Oh that would be good. That way it's not obtrusive and won't get in the way. Heck something like that is small enough it could be treated as a "thumb button" in addition to serving as an analog stick.

Regards,
SB

 

You're right, but they've missed a trick this time around. I suppose they could gain extra revenues from Move buyers also buying a replacement Move+. Personally I find the Navicon very disappointing, what appears to be an ancilliary money maker, with very little gubbins, no MEMS, yet a significant price for what's an almost empty piece of plastic. Considering everything else Move is getting right, this seems out of character. A Move with nub would cover all possibilities and been a more elegant solution.

I wonder if one could be retrofitted? It'd need a sixaxis innards, PSP nub, and count as two devices over BlueTooth, but it could work.

 

I think it's because they want people to be able to play all the games that use a sub-controller to use a traditional Dualshock (that is the case atm). If you add a bunch of motion things to the sub, then you wouldn't be able to use the Dualshock in its place.