Digital Foundry Article Technical Discussion [2024]

[Davros]

but I'd really like to have the option to plug & play games -which many of them are these days, but not all- like on a console,

I disagree...
A friend brought his son's xbox360 to my house and asked me to install a Fifa game for him he couldn't install it because he didn't have an internet connection. It was absolutely the worst experience I've ever had installing a game.
So i insert the disc, it installs try to run it, but then wants to install a 40gb patch the disc just about holds 40gb so whet was the point of the disc it if its just going to install the game from the internet anyway. So then try to run the game for the second time cant because I need some sort of online account so I try create one, trying to type with a gamepad is F**ing awful. Cant create an account because he doesnt have an email address so I have quit the game and create an email address for him. Run the game for a third time create the account then it wants to verify the account by sending him an email, quit the game again to reply to the email. Fourth attempt to play the game sign in to account again have to type with a gamepad. it finally loads. Absolutely horrible experience....

 

[function]

I disagree...
A friend brought his son's xbox360 to my house and asked me to install a Fifa game for him he couldn't install it because he didn't have an internet connection. It was absolutely the worst experience I've ever had installing a game.
So i insert the disc, it installs try to run it, but then wants to install a 40gb patch the disc just about holds 40gb so whet was the point of the disc it if its just going to install the game from the internet anyway. So then try to run the game for the second time cant because I need some sort of online account so I try create one, trying to type with a gamepad is F**ing awful. Cant create an account because he doesnt have an email address so I have quit the game and create an email address for him. Run the game for a third time create the account then it wants to verify the account by sending him an email, quit the game again to reply to the email. Fourth attempt to play the game sign in to account again have to type with a gamepad. it finally loads. Absolutely horrible experience....

I'm a bit confused by this as there's no Xbox 360 game that's 40GB. Was it as Xbox One?

But yeah that does sound like a ballache. Would have been faster to create an account on your phone or a PC, and then just login on the console (still a bit of a pain, but first time setup normally is on a pad!)

 

[XboxKING]

They are still literally the fastest consumer level CPU's available on the market.



So essentially an APU. Why don't you ask AMD who actually does exactly that how that's going in terms of "increasing performance a lot" over the highest end discrete systems?

APU's have big disadvantages over discrete systems from a performance perspective. Most importantly, power and heat budget is lowered for both components, and memory has to be shared meaning both contention, and a trade off between raw throughput and latency (the GPU prefers one, the CPU prefers the other).

It also essentially wipes out the modular nature of the desktop PC which is kinda the whole point of it.



A PC without an OS. Hmmm.. you are aware that the Xbox also runs on Windows right? And would you care to explain your reasoning around the IO comments? How, exactly, would getting rid of Windows speed up IO? What are you replacing it with, and how would it work?

“They are still literally the fastest consumer level CPU's available on the market. “

while this is not true at all, especially with regards to compiling, the only place where you could claim any x86 CPU is faster at anything, would be a situation where the x86 CPU uses 1000% the energy to have a 120% or 130% advantage. Which is the definition of legacy garbage tech.

Nvidia wanted to buy arm to never have to deal with intel or other legacy companies, not to mention not having their GPUs bottlenecks by ancient architecture.

 

[function]

Nvidia wanted to buy arm to never have to deal with intel or other legacy companies, not to mention not having their GPUs bottlenecks by ancient architecture.

Nvidia were interested in merging with AMD to gain access to x86, but not as a junior partner. Jensen wanted to be in charge. AMD went with ATI instead.

Intel and even AMD are still market leaders and technology leaders in large parts of the computing market with a stream of new products that keep evolving CPU design.

That is the opposite of a "legacy" company. Hell Arm is almost as old as x86.

You're attempting to use "legacy" as a loaded term, almost a slur, but you're applying it incorrectly.

 

[Cyan]

“They are still literally the fastest consumer level CPU's available on the market. “

while this is not true at all, especially with regards to compiling, the only place where you could claim any x86 CPU is faster at anything, would be a situation where the x86 CPU uses 1000% the energy to have a 120% or 130% advantage. Which is the definition of legacy garbage tech.

Nvidia wanted to buy arm to never have to deal with intel or other legacy companies, not to mention not having their GPUs bottlenecks by ancient architecture.

well, you are discontent with x86 in general, but on PC there are -and have been- other chips from different architectures.

I agree with you, and others, that some PCs could be more efficient. However, even with all the Windows stuff going on, a now considered low tier RTX 3060 12GB can compete against any current console -except, most probably, the PS5 Pro-, and when it comes to Raytracing that isn't even a match, it's a flawless victory for the 3060.

We are talking about a low range GPU, so maybe the PC's architecture isn't that inefficient overall as long as the components are balanced.

 

[Subtlesnake]

“They are still literally the fastest consumer level CPU's available on the market. “

while this is not true at all, especially with regards to compiling, the only place where you could claim any x86 CPU is faster at anything, would be a situation where the x86 CPU uses 1000% the energy to have a 120% or 130% advantage. Which is the definition of legacy garbage tech.

Nvidia wanted to buy arm to never have to deal with intel or other legacy companies, not to mention not having their GPUs bottlenecks by ancient architecture.

Please link to the appropriate benchmarks demonstrating this.

The cross-vendor benchmarks I can find, show the Apple M3 is on average a bit slower in multithreaded applications than the 7840U, but at a lower TDP, making it slightly more power efficient. That's on a slightly better process, though (3nm vs 4nm).

https://www.notebookcheck.net/M3-vs-R7-7840U-vs-Apple-M3-Pro-12-Core_15110_15023_15115.247596.0.html

Apple M3 vs AMD Ryzen 7 7840U: performance comparison

We compared 8-core Apple M3 (4.05 GHz) against AMD Ryzen 7 7840U (3.3 GHz) in games and benchmarks. Find out which CPU has better performance.

nanoreview.net

 

[see colon]

You don't follow how that if something gets worse and not better they'll have to deal with the thing getting worse?

There exists games and programs which don't have IO issues too... What you just proposed is not mutually exclusive... they CAN do both.

I don't follow how it would be Microsoft that will have to deal with shader compilation stutter. Developers will have to deal with that, as they always have had to. If it gets worse, it will be because developers aren't precompiling shaders, the know solution to avoiding such performance downfalls. Shader compilation stutter already has a solution. It just isn't implemented in every game and for all shaders.

Reworking the IO system, just as an example, could help increase the performance of windows as a whole, benefiting software that have IO issues, as well as those that don't. I never said they were mutually exclusive. I simply said they have other areas they have deficits in that would increase the overall performance to Windows, not just first run stutters while gaming.

 

[Nesh]

I disagree...
A friend brought his son's xbox360 to my house and asked me to install a Fifa game for him he couldn't install it because he didn't have an internet connection. It was absolutely the worst experience I've ever had installing a game.
So i insert the disc, it installs try to run it, but then wants to install a 40gb patch the disc just about holds 40gb so whet was the point of the disc it if its just going to install the game from the internet anyway. So then try to run the game for the second time cant because I need some sort of online account so I try create one, trying to type with a gamepad is F**ing awful. Cant create an account because he doesnt have an email address so I have quit the game and create an email address for him. Run the game for a third time create the account then it wants to verify the account by sending him an email, quit the game again to reply to the email. Fourth attempt to play the game sign in to account again have to type with a gamepad. it finally loads. Absolutely horrible experience....

Are you sure that wasn't an XBOX One?

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I'm a bit confused by this as there's no Xbox 360 game that's 40GB. Was it as Xbox One?

Are you sure that wasn't an XBOX One?

C'mon guys, this is Davros. Could've been a PS5- he wouldn't be able to tell the difference as all consoles look the same to him. TBH I'm sceptical of the whole story because I can't imagine a console even being allowed into his PC temple. Let's just be happy he can regale us with a story of interacting with a console; that shows real progress!

 

[pjbliverpool]

“They are still literally the fastest consumer level CPU's available on the market. “

while this is not true at all, especially with regards to compiling, the only place where you could claim any x86 CPU is faster at anything, would be a situation where the x86 CPU uses 1000% the energy to have a 120% or 130% advantage. Which is the definition of legacy garbage tech.

Nvidia wanted to buy arm to never have to deal with intel or other legacy companies, not to mention not having their GPUs bottlenecks by ancient architecture.

Other posts have already dealt with the key responses here, but I just wanted to add, wasn't the whole purpose of your initial post around x86 being "so ancient and archaic" to demonstrate an example of how consoles are better/more efficient than PC's because PC's are on such an "archaic architecture"?

So how does that tally with consoles also using x86 based CPU's?

p.s. since this discussion is in the context of gaming performance, when you provide these benchmarks showing how much slower x86 is than other architectures, please ensure you are using gaming benchmarks to do so.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

So how does that tally with consoles also using x86 based CPU's? Not only that, but they moved from ARM, to x86 this generation for one of the biggest CPU performance increases we've ever seen from a new console generation.

Sorry? Only consoles to use ARM are Nintendo's handhelds, and now NSW. They were x86 last gen, PPC before that, and MIPS et al before that.

Also, as you and everyone else states, all CPU archs are archaic. What was the last new CPU design ever? Cell?? They all have their roots in the 70s and 80s. With all the tools etc existing to develop very complex software, introducing a new arch without any of those tools means it's DOA. New architectures were possible in the 70s and 80s where code was simple and tools were rudimentary as you could sell your new processor on price and performance. Now we have to use what was established in the early days. This is the way with all technologies. When it's new, there are no standards, it's a free-for-all. Then a couple of winners come out on top and carry on for the following decades where they are so used, they can't diverge too much or be replaced with something new. It's why we have QWERTY keyboards and always will.

 

[pjbliverpool]

Sorry? Only consoles to use ARM are Nintendo's handhelds, and now NSW. They were x86 last gen, PPC before that, and MIPS et al before that.

Oh yeah my bad, I forgot Jaguar was actually x86 as well. Post updated.

 

[Cyan]

C'mon guys, this is Davros. Could've been a PS5- he wouldn't be able to tell the difference as all consoles look the same to him. TBH I'm sceptical of the whole story because I can't imagine a console even being allowed into his PC temple. Let's just be happy he can regale us with a story of interacting with a console; that shows real progress!

well, I hope not. I prefer him to remain pure. From personal experience, when console and PC were two totally different things, I lived in peace and harmony. Techy people were the most common fellas I interacted with on the internet, they played RTSs like AoE and so on. Never fought. After getting a Xbox in early 2005 and perusing the forums, I found myself involved over time in the console wars, bickering about the most inane things.

Maybe some day I will be like him.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Um, because PC guys never fought over Intel versus AMD, or nVidia versus ATI?? You weren't visiting the right forums!

 

[Charlietus]

People fight online over fishing rods brands, no one can escape

 

[cheapchips]

People fight online over fishing rods brands, no one can escape

I visited the parents at weekend and walked our dogs near the local fishing lake. I was shocked by how 'tactical' and camo all the gear was, even the wheelbarrows. I felt like I was walking through a warzone.

I wouldn't want to be in the middle of a best rod argument.

 

[see colon]

Sorry? Only consoles to use ARM are Nintendo's handhelds, and now NSW. They were x86 last gen, PPC before that, and MIPS et al before that.

Whoa!
Whoa!
Three Dee Ohh
Bro!
and don't forget
Zeebo

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Three Dee Ohh

3DO wasn't a limited console but an evolution of audio and video into a future beyond imagining. Technology of the future redefining the future in futuristic ways did indeed use the from-the-future ARM technology.


...


...


(What the hell's a zeebo?)

 

[Cyan]

3DO wasn't a limited console but an evolution of audio and video into a future beyond imagining. Technology of the future redefining the future in futuristic ways did indeed use the from-the-future ARM technology.


...


...


(What the hell's a zeebo?)

Zeebo was a console meant for the Brazilian and Mexican markets, and had a couple of interesting games like Double Dragon. It used an ARM processor. I didn't know about it until a few weeks ago when I watched a guy who I admire -he completed more than 1400 arcade games from the arcades era, an impossible to repeat fun with a single credit over a period of 10 years, without cheating and from pure skill (and suffering too...)- playing Double Dragon on a newly published Zeebo emulator.

 

[Cyan]

PC is raw power on archaic designs with severe bottlenecks. It achieves results despite being pc architecture, not because of it

should Microsoft go with PowerPC once again then?

Why Microsoft switched from Intel to Power PC for the Xbox 360 | MVG

We know how that ended up.