Digital Foundry Article Technical Discussion [2022]

[Silent_Buddha]

DF Article @ https://www.eurogamer.net/digitalfo...ssic-games-emulators-simply-arent-good-enough

Sony's new PlayStation Plus classic games emulators simply aren't good enough
The first PS1, PSP and PS2 titles tested on PS5.

This week, Sony has started rolling out the new PlayStation Plus service with its various tiers including classic games such as PlayStation 1, 2 and PSP titles. Thus far, however, the service is only available in Asian territories. Thankfully, with help from backers of the DF Supporter Program, we have access and have spent time with Sony's official emulation for the original PlayStation, PlayStation 2 and PSP. Consider this a preview of sorts as it may not reflect the experience of UK/EU/US gamers, but it is our first insight into the nuts and bolts of the emulation - and there are clearly major issues the platform holder has to address.

...

Ouch, ouch, ouch. So, the PS5 can't run at 50 Hz, but Sony decided to use the PAL versions of games (so either 25 or 50 FPS for most games). No wonder reports of poor performance for PS1 games on PS+ are so bad.

It's too bad they couldn't have done something a little strange. Use the NTSC version of the game while simultaneously using the PAL languages for any countries that don't speak English, Japanese, Korean, Spanish (most of Latin America is NTSC) or Filipino since those languages are used extensively in NTSC countries.

Or at the very least use NTSC for those languages and then use PAL for all other language choices.

Man, I'm glad that the dominant TV manufacturers (America in the past, Japan and Korea) were all NTSC countries so 1st world content sort of standardized on 60 Hz displays with the move to flat panel displays. Although I'm sure film buffs might have preferred everything to standardize to 48 or 72 Hz.

Regards,
SB

 

[Globalisateur]

Why would anybody be surprised by how they treat their own games, their own legacy? Like, those are old rubbish games.

Why would anybody play this?

 

[see colon]

Ouch, ouch, ouch. So, the PS5 can't run at 50 Hz, but Sony decided to use the PAL versions of games (so either 25 or 50 FPS for most games). No wonder reports of poor performance for PS1 games on PS+ are so bad.

It's too bad they couldn't have done something a little strange. Use the NTSC version of the game while simultaneously using the PAL languages for any countries that don't speak English, Japanese, Korean, Spanish (most of Latin America is NTSC) or Filipino since those languages are used extensively in NTSC countries.

Or at the very least use NTSC for those languages and then use PAL for all other language choices.

Man, I'm glad that the dominant TV manufacturers (America in the past, Japan and Korea) were all NTSC countries so 1st world content sort of standardized on 60 Hz displays with the move to flat panel displays. Although I'm sure film buffs might have preferred everything to standardize to 48 or 72 Hz.

Regards,
SB

You want them to do work on the thing they are charging you for? That's asking too much don't you think.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

You want them to do work on the thing they are charging you for? That's asking too much don't you think.

When put that way it comes across as PS1 support is just there for marketing and little else.

This makes me wonder how MS tackled OG Xbox back compatibility WRT NTSC, PAL and localization? Do OG Xbox titles just naturally scale between the two? That would kind of make sense considering that many OG Xbox developers were originally PC game developers. I could certainly see MS requiring 60 Hz support even in PAL region game releases.

Regards,
SB

 

[see colon]

When put that way it comes across as PS1 support is just there for marketing and little else.

This makes me wonder how MS tackled OG Xbox back compatibility WRT NTSC, PAL and localization? Do OG Xbox titles just naturally scale between the two? That would kind of make sense considering that many OG Xbox developers were originally PC game developers. I could certainly see MS requiring 60 Hz support even in PAL region game releases.

Regards,
SB

I do think that games build for original Xbox weren't so much tied, timing wise, to frame rate as Playstation games were. Xbox games were also built using standard APIs that weren't just designed to be a point of abstraction between the software and hardware, but it was also completely controlled by Micrrosoft. Also, almost every original Xbox game supported PAL60.

A quick google search told me that if you bought a digital copy of an Xbox game on 360 in a PAL territory, it would run in 50hz mode on 360, which outputs 50hz. But if that game is available on One, it's 60hz as One does not output 50hz. It sounds like if you have 60hz enabled in the 360 dashboard, it's 60hz there also, but there are conflicting reports.

 

[snc]

Not very into old games but would like to check old gran turismos games and Tomba (couldnt finish it as was some bug entering one of doors ;d), hope they will be added to library in future (but probably due car licensing old gt will not be included).

 

[Allandor]

Ouch, ouch, ouch. So, the PS5 can't run at 50 Hz, but Sony decided to use the PAL versions of games (so either 25 or 50 FPS for most games). No wonder reports of poor performance for PS1 games on PS+ are so bad....

Well, they could at least offer some kind of VRR integration. First doubling the framerate of those titles (that are 25fps) and if they have a 50Hz signal, they could use VRR to try to get an somehow even framerate on the TV. At least every VRR capable TV should offer that.

But of course, the other problem is the slower gameplay that was normally used in PAL regions. But I guess, Sony just uses the min-afford route. They have old titles running on PS4/5 and that is all they needed for that checklist feature. Just like they announced PS2-games with achievements back in the days on PS4 it will end like that. A few titles that are not really good emulated with higher resolution and than the interesst ends. There was no big wave of PS2 titles after that announcement just a few. Nowadays it is so easy to correctly emulate PS1 games and Sony (with all their manpower) still has such problems. This reflects quite good how much interest they have in running old titles => almost none.

 

[Phantom88]

 

[Riddlewire]

"Screen space reflections ought to be enough for any game."
-Bill Gates (probably)

 

[davis.anthony]

This Hitman video highlights two things for me:

1. How much ground AMD need to make up in terms of RT
2. How we're still years away from having enough performance for RT in any GPU

The next 2-3 years in the PC space are going to be very interesting.

 

[PSman1700]

2. How we're still years away from having enough performance for RT in any GPU

Depends on the implementation. Todays Ampere gpus do exhibit enough RT performance in quite many titles available today.

 

[pjbliverpool]

Depends on the implementation. Todays Ampere gpus do exhibit enough RT performance in quite many titles available today.

All titles in fact. Unless there is an example of a game that is literally unplayable with RT enabled on these GPU's. Even Hitman 3 as I understand it can run maxed out at 1440p/DLSS Q at >60fps (unless CPU limited).

I'm not sure anyone can reasonably claim that those settings are unplayable.

 

[davis.anthony]

All titles in fact. Unless there is an example of a game that is literally unplayable with RT enabled on these GPU's. Even Hitman 3 as I understand it can run maxed out at 1440p/DLSS Q at >60fps (unless CPU limited).

I'm not sure anyone can reasonably claim that those settings are unplayable.

Are you addressing me?

 

[hughJ]

Wish there were someway of exporting the scene graph and assets from a game into a proper path-traced renderer, because I'm getting serious uncanny valley vibes from the reflections off transparent surfaces. Not sure if it's merely a fresnel/Schlick issue, or if it's a result of the material+lighting not conserving energy properly.

 

[techuse]

Transparent reflections havent yet looked right. The reflection is usually too strongly visible.

 

[Dictator]

Transparent reflections havent yet looked right. The reflection is usually too strongly visible.

Here they are doing fully coherent rays for transparent reflections, which is physically inaccurate. It is in their presentation on the game. Game's with really accurate transparency reflections are all the path traced games and those Games that use NV branch transparency in UE4. They offer rough transparent reflections, like Chernobylite.

 

[Seanspeed]

"Screen space reflections ought to be enough for any game."
-Bill Gates (probably)

The problem here, and with a number of RT implementations, is that this kinda is true

Reflections and shadows have been two of the most common 'turn these down first for more performance' settings that gamers have tended to opt for over the years. It's one of those things where as long as the reflections/shadows are there and aren't just absolutely grizzly bad, it tends to keep the game looking pretty good overall, and the usually notable performance gains you make by compromising here well worth it. And that's before they increased demands of these techniques by like 2x or more with RT.

PC gamers aren't gonna use these settings on the norm until there's way more overhead available, and I'm just not sure that's gonna happen anytime soon given how heavy these effects tend to be and also how demands in other areas are gonna be jumping up quite a bit as well soon. It'd be different if ray tracing were the only advancement being made this generation, but that's gonna be far from the case.

 

[DavidGraham]

The Hitman engine is too old to support ray tracing efficiently, time to evolve it.

 

[pjbliverpool]

Are you addressing me?

The argument generally. I know others have expressed similar sentiments that RT performance is still not sufficient, but it depends on how you define sufficient. Its certainly sufficient for today's commercial game implementations provided you set your resolution and performance expectations accordingly (but still within the "playable" zone).

Whether the peformance/resolution trade off is worth the visual gain from RT is entirely a personal preference but you're talking to the guy that played the original Cryisis maxed out on an 8800GTS at sub 720p and around 20-30fps so you can guess what my preference is.

 

[davis.anthony]

But you're talking to the guy that played the original Cryisis maxed out on an 8800GTS at sub 720p and around 20-30fps so you can guess what my preference is.

So did I on...

Athlon 64 x2 5600+
2Gb DDR2
8800GT SLI

But the difference for me when playing Crysis on the above rig in 2007 was the visuals on offer were worth the performance hit and were far and above any other game on the market.

I can't say the same for games with RT in 2022, the overall visual improvement in a lot of cases for me doesn't justify the huge drop in performance.

If turning on RT was the equivalent of going from 'High' to 'Very High' in Crysis it would be worth it, but alas, that difference just isn't there.