Digital Foundry Article Technical Discussion [2022]

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This title isn't doing anything too demanding that would make DX12 desirable anyway.

Maybe, but it is the current standard API for PC and Xbox Consoles. At some point FromSoftware and all other game developers using their own engine needs to step up to current day standards. If not now, then when? When they're a decade behind in 2025?
 
Maybe, but it is the current standard API for PC and Xbox Consoles. At some point FromSoftware and all other game developers using their own engine needs to step up to current day standards. If not now, then when? When they're a decade behind in 2025?
Whenever they can get their game running acceptably under DX12. Developers should have a specific reason to use lower level APIs given the extra complexity and knowledge required. Using it just because has not been a benefit to anyone. It's made games worse.
 
--- Augment that process with the ability to connect to a server which detects your system config, and then compiles the required shader/PSOs and downloads them to your PC. Ready to go.
Smart Delivery for precompiled shaders. Sign me up.

Whenever they can get their game running acceptably under DX12. Developers should have a specific reason to use lower level APIs given the extra complexity and knowledge required. Using it just because has not been a benefit to anyone. It's made games worse.
The specific reason is that it's the industry standard API that's been around for more than half a decade and is also the current standard API on another platform (Xbox). And when compared to most FromSoftware games, Elden Ring does run "acceptably". I'm pretty sure the PC port of Sekiro still has weird issues with controllers. As in, it won't detect controllers sometimes (either Xbox or Playstation controllers), and using a wired controller has a performance penalty. As in, you get lower FPS with a wired controller. The fact that Elden Ring's performance issues seam to be mostly related to shader compilation, which other games also have, is a step in the right direction compared to the more exotic issues their previous games have had or still have.
 
Maybe, but it is the current standard API for PC and Xbox Consoles. At some point FromSoftware and all other game developers using their own engine needs to step up to current day standards. If not now, then when? When they're a decade behind in 2025?
That is like always, on the one hand people (in this case many developers) want more control of that what happens, but on the other side, they don't want the responsibility to manage all themselves. IMHO this is why Vulkan & DX12 aren't used in more games. DX11 makes it quite easy to get and keep something running. On Playstation they don't have a choice, they must go through this. It is like always, if you have the choice between the easy way and the much more complicated way, you always choose the easy way, especially if all your refined tools use the easy way and you have knowledge how the easy way works. But it is also a cost decision as more time equals more costs so even if they want to implement a DX12 mode, they might be forced to just implement the old way.
E.g. I'm currently playing Elex 2. The developer of this game still uses their own engine they made for Gothic 3 (released in 2006). In interviews they always stated they still use their old engine, because they don't want to start from 0. Their small team knows their tools and engine quite well so they are still using it, even if it looks a bit outdated.
 
That is like always, on the one hand people (in this case many developers) want more control of that what happens, but on the other side, they don't want the responsibility to manage all themselves. IMHO this is why Vulkan & DX12 aren't used in more games. DX11 makes it quite easy to get and keep something running. On Playstation they don't have a choice, they must go through this. It is like always, if you have the choice between the easy way and the much more complicated way, you always choose the easy way, especially if all your refined tools use the easy way and you have knowledge how the easy way works. But it is also a cost decision as more time equals more costs so even if they want to implement a DX12 mode, they might be forced to just implement the old way.
E.g. I'm currently playing Elex 2. The developer of this game still uses their own engine they made for Gothic 3 (released in 2006). In interviews they always stated they still use their old engine, because they don't want to start from 0. Their small team knows their tools and engine quite well so they are still using it, even if it looks a bit outdated.

Not true some competent and well funded teams western teams are happy with Direct X 12. Since PS3 generation Japanese devs are late with shader technology. The only one up to date is Capcom and at a bit behind Square-Enix.
 
Not true some competent and well funded teams western teams are happy with Direct X 12. Since PS3 generation Japanese devs are late with shader technology. The only one up to date is Capcom and at a bit behind Square-Enix.
some, yes, but far to many DX11 titles are still released. Even games developed years after DX12 was out. Even the unreal engine has still problems with DX12. It is really a never ending story. Just like DX9 was still used while DX11 was out.
 
some, yes, but far to many DX11 titles are still released. Even games developed years after DX12 was out. Even the unreal engine has still problems with DX12. It is really a never ending story. Just like DX9 was still used while DX11 was out.
give it time. A large portion of the PC audience did not have hardware to support DX12. With the generation now moving forward and the baseline on PC truly becoming XBO hardware, DX12 is now an API that will see widespread coverage.

Many features have been left unused on PC for this reason, which is why we often see so much more innovation on the console side of things over PC.
 
It doesn't explain the PS5 running at 60fps in backwards compatible mode though. The Xbox SX is supposed to be more powerful than the PS5.

https://forum.beyond3d.com/posts/2243896/

they explain it in the video. The settings keep dialling up on PC/Xbox. There are no fixed settings for Xbox. More power is available it keeps cranking up resolution and settings. BC or not.

it’s clear that isn’t the case for PlayStation versions.
 
DF Elden Ring2.jpg DF Elden Ring.jpg
they explain it in the video. The settings keep dialling up on PC/Xbox. There are no fixed settings for Xbox. More power is available it keeps cranking up resolution and settings.
It's not exactly as high res as Quality Mode but it certainly is sharper than FPS mode.

Doesn't explain it performing worse than the Quality mode. Could have used some of that 400x zoom that they like doing.
 
they explain it in the video. The settings keep dialling up on PC/Xbox. There are no fixed settings for Xbox. More power is available it keeps cranking up resolution and settings. BC or not.

it’s clear that isn’t the case for PlayStation versions.


Also, no day one patch help when using this X1X version on Series X.
Not sure how much difference any patches made for PS4Pro version, but PS5 will benefit from those.
 
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It's not exactly as high res as Quality Mode but it certainly is sharper than FPS mode.

Doesn't explain it performing worse than the Quality mode. Could have used some of that 400x zoom that they like doing.
still running BC code, which is inefficient in comparison to a native binary. DF didn't expect the engine to ramp up settings for X1X when moved to Series X.
 
So, now we need to test just the xbox one version instead of the X version to try the same ^^
It really seems like an poorly optimized port on PC and xbox and only the playstation has a somehow optimized version. Not flawless but at least a bit more optimized for the system.

To me it seems that the resolution- & quality-scaler in this game throws everything in as long as 30fps are reached. At least with the next xbox we might get stable 60 ... or 8k with framerates in the 30fps region :mrgreen:.
 
I really enjoy videos like this. When DF are like WTF-this-makes-no-sense, I know it's going to be entertaining. This documents some utterly weird decisions made during the development of this game, but also the dilemma of game devs trying to produce games that select the "best" combination of settings for the average player.
 
So, now we need to test just the xbox one version instead of the X version to try the same ^^

How would you accomplish that?
?Use this same procedure, but install the game to the external Seagate card.
?Move that card over to a Series S and play from there.

I don't have either console, so I don't know how they work with their installations.
 
I really enjoy videos like this. When DF are like WTF-this-makes-no-sense, I know it's going to be entertaining. This documents some utterly weird decisions made during the development of this game, but also the dilemma of game devs trying to produce games that select the "best" combination of settings for the average player.
lol yup.

I have this terrible feeling they just never intended for this engine to ever leave 30fps and it's just been growing pains for them.
 
With the generation now moving forward and the baseline on PC truly becoming XBO hardware,

Somehow i doubt that a GTX750Ti/7870/HDD is the baseline on pc now, or becoming that way.

Many features have been left unused on PC for this reason, which is why we often see so much more innovation on the console side of things over PC.

Not the whole picture i think, RT is a visual feature that is generally more dominant in the pc space, head-started on pc years before the consoles launched. Same for hw/ai accelerated reconstruction-tech. Fast-er loading did exist on the pc aswell in select titles (doom eternal had no loading on pc at all).
 
I have this terrible feeling they just never intended for this engine to ever leave 30fps and it's just been growing pains for them.
I think that's true for the previous generation Xbox game version which was never expected to greatly exceed 30fps for the most part, so having the game adapt higher quality settings and higher resolution made sense. When run on hardware which could have hit 60fps if certain settings were weighted differently, it makes less sense. This is where a really good variety of settings helps. It feels like that From put more effort, and tuning of settings for particular console versions, than the are given credit for. It also falls apart when you want to do something unexpected, like run Elden Ring at 60fps on any Xbox.

It begs the question if From considered PS5 owners wanting a solid 60fps experience and easily having the option of using the PS4/Pro version on PS5, but Xbox owners not having that option because circumventing smart delivery for one game feels like way too many compromises for general keeping any other game up to date, as well to locking yourself out of the co-op mode of Elden Ring. :runaway:
 
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