Digital Foundry Article Technical Discussion [2021]

[iroboto]

This is not Alex fault if Sony Bend only used backward compatibility for porting Days Gone. Imagine the guy who have a PC and a PS5 he can choose the best version.

It actually sold me on the PS5 version. I don't want to deal with any chance it may not run well (on my 1070) and the graphical updates are not substantial enough for me to care. Watching these types of videos, often because they look for frame rate dips, really shows how fun the game can be. The saying "there's no such thing as bad press" really comes to mind here.

 

[techuse]

Didn't expect SSGI to be added. Good video.

 

[Tkumpathenurple]

I hope everyone can get back to something enjoyable this evening, like playing games...

Already on it. Playing Subnautica on my PS5. Which version though? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

It actually sold me on the PS5 version. I don't want to deal with any chance it may not run well (on my 1070) and the graphical updates are not substantial enough for me to care. Watching these types of videos, often because they look for frame rate dips, really shows how fun the game can be. The saying "there's no such thing as bad press" really comes to mind here.

If you do play it, I'd recommend sticking to the main story, almost as though it's linear for the most part. The game's a good deal of fun, but IMO it suffers if you do all of the side stuff, exploring etc. as soon as it's available.

There's a point when the map is fully open, but it's surprisingly late in the game. That's when I'd recommend exploring the map and generally monkeying around.

Of course YMMV, but if you do stick with my recommendation, feel free to ask me if you've unlocked the full map yet and I'll say yay or nay to avoid spoilers.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

True. But this isn't an all-hands-on-deck project either. This is just revisiting an old game that allows leveraging a bunch of prior effort while also benefitting from the work aimed at the next Metro.

It would much harder to give away the upgrade to existing Metro owners if the cost of development dedicated specifically to this project was significant.

Unless they are doing like CDPR has in the past. Basically the engine will be used for their next game, so all the work is basically preparation for their next project. In the meantime do the work with an existing game and assets and offer that as a "free" upgrade to current owners. Bonus revenue if it also pulls in new revenue (this has happened each time CDPR did it with Witcher 1 and 2 with sales spikes after the free technology update).

Basically almost no cost since the cost is in relation to an upcoming title. IE - the work on the engine is going to be done regardless, so using the existing game to test it out and work out any obvious bugs is something that would be done anyway.

The upside is you keep gamers loyal to your studio as well as potentially bringing in new revenue from new players.

Regards,
SB

 

[Silent_Buddha]

I've still yet to watch the video, but I've had a look at the title. Nothing about the title appears disingenuous or inaccurate. If the rest of the video is of a similar tone, then all that noise - as per the spirit of the 2020's internet - is much ado about nothing.

There's a semantics debate to be had over what qualifies as PS5 when referring to PS4 BC games running with boosted clockspeeds, but like many such arguments, it involves a lot of hot air for no productive endpoint.

Here's what does it for me.

Can it run on PS4? If it can't it's not really the PS4 version. Doesn't matter if they only thing they did was enable 60 FPS, if it can't run on PS4, it would be a lie to say it's the PS4 version because someone watching the video would then think they could run the version being shown on their PS4 ... but then find that they can't run it on their PS4.

The best they can do is just make it obvious that the "PS5 version" which can only run on the PS5 only does X thing differently than the virtually identical PS4 version.

Just like an XBS-X running a game in BC at 120 Hz would be the XBS-X version if you can't run it at 120 Hz on an XBO. Although here's it's obviously more muddled as unlike PS4, it's actually the exact same game and game code for XBS-X. So the game just doesn't run at 120 Hz on XBO or with any of the other "automatic" BC enhancements.

However, that's not the case on PS5, unless I misunderstand BC titles that run at higher framerates cannot be run on the PS4 (the whole thing with having to re-import your saved games or some such because of different IDs or some weird thing?). There's a PS4 version which will run the same on PS5 as it does on PS4 in BC mode. Then there's PS5 versions that can't run on PS4 but because of this can run with higher resolution, framerates, or whatever.

I guess blame Sony for any confusion about the whole thing.

Regards,
SB

 

[Karamazov]

So has the 4Pro got a 60fps mode now also?
To me it's a grey area.

Regardless of settings, is it running the same code or a patched code that does not run on previous gen.
If so then it's enhanced, maybe that's a better term.

If XS gets a patch that doubles fps I would also not say it's XO version of the game it's enhanced. Whereas xbox fps boost is just XO.
This has gotten a lot deeper than I intended, and I know it's not a native PS5 title.

Edit : just read some of the later posts. This will be my last comment on this as, I was just musing the finer (and in my mind) unimportant down in the weeds details.

Also just remembered that some studios was able to work out how to detect its running on PS5, where as majority of the talk from studios was that it either wasn't available or hard to do or something.

See it as a boosted ps4 version. Do xbox one games boosted to 120fps on XsX are native XsX games ? No. Same here

 

[BRiT]

See it as a boosted ps4 version. Do xbox one games boosted to 120fps on XsX are native XsX games ? No. Same here

PS5 required the game to be patched by the developer. The same can't be said for those Xbox Series X|S games. Those FPSBoosted games on Xbox Series are literally identical to their unpatched Xbox One / One X versions.

 

[Karamazov]

How can they uncap the framerate on xsx if not patched ?
And why did not they run at 120fps from the begining then, the feature was added later. But i think the difference is that it's MS that handles the patches, not the game devs.

Point still remain it's not a ps5 port.

 

[Tkumpathenurple]

However, that's not the case on PS5, unless I misunderstand BC titles that run at higher framerates cannot be run on the PS4 (the whole thing with having to re-import your saved games or some such because of different IDs or some weird thing?). There's a PS4 version which will run the same on PS5 as it does on PS4 in BC mode. Then there's PS5 versions that can't run on PS4 but because of this can run with higher resolution, framerates, or whatever.

You misunderstand. I'll take two games as examples, as they're what I've been playing lately: Ghost of Tsushima and Subnautica.

Ghost of Tsushima is only a PS4 game. It's impossible to insert a disc or download a version of the game that doesn't run on the PS4. If you download the latest version to an external HDD, you can connect it to a PS4Pro and it will run at 1800p30 or you can connect it to a PS5 and it will run at 1800p60. Saves will transfer between consoles without problem, whether via USB stick or PS+ Cloud saves.

Subnautica was released on the PS4 however many years ago. It was playable on the PS5 at the exact same framerate and resolution as the PS4Pro. Saves would transfer between consoles without problem.

However, just recently, a PS5-only upgrade was released. This version will not play on the PS4, and saves won't transfer between PS4<->PS5. So now I can either play the PS4 version via BC, or the native PS5 version. Naturally, I'm playing the latter.

For the most part, I think it's relatively straightforward. The only part of this that bothers me is the issue with saves. I would've thought Sony would've tried to solve this matter, given that games which released on both the PSVita and the PS4 involved farting around with transferring saves. You had to upload your save from the PSVita to the cloud, and then download to the PS4 from said cloud - but no, not the PS+ cloud, an independent cloud

They've had ~8 years to get this right, and it just seemed to slip their minds. Wtf?

Edit: as for what qualifies as what generation's game, perhaps Shaggy can help me out. Take it away Shaggy!

*Shaggy enters the chat*

I call this debate semantic,
Proper pedantic,
I want off this track,
I'd rather blow... a man's dick.

*Shaggy leaves the chat*

Thanks Shaggy.

 

[Karamazov]

GoT was the ps4 30fps version when installed on my ps5, then that ps4 version got patched to unlock to 60FPS, not a speratate game.
I had No man's sky installed too, then they released the PS5 version, and i had to download the new version instead of just a patch of the PS4 version, and i had two versions of the game installed, the ps4 version on my external HDD, and the PS5 version on the internal SSD, and i had to copy my saves from PS4 to the ps5 version.
Days gone remained the PS4 version too, installed on the external HDD.
Of course it still uses extar GPU power to run up to 60ffps, but a proper port would have benefited from other features, higher poly assets, better draw distances, better textures etc... And that would also have benefited to the PC version as they could have ported that PS5 version to the PC.

 

[Deleted member 86764]

Those who have a history of ignoring the ground rules of the forum and the original post of this topic have been removed from the site as have their posts.

For reference, the ground rules are stated in the first post @ https://forum.beyond3d.com/threads/digital-foundry-article-technical-discussion-2021.62207/

While I think there were some comments that broke those rules, there were also others that didn't and have too been removed. I hope there wasn't more than one user removed from the site.

In criticism, B3D is at risk of becoming an echo chamber with only agreeable voices allowed to comment.

I too have had posts removed when they've been completely innocent but were mildly critical of one particular manufacturer's game. When the same criticisms were presented to an opposing side, those were deemed acceptable and have remained.

Just looking at the Console Industry section of the site shows a very clear bias. If my comments here are deemed unacceptable, please also remove my account from the site.

 

[Allandor]

How can they uncap the framerate on xsx if not patched ?
And why did not they run at 120fps from the begining then, the feature was added later. But i think the difference is that it's MS that handles the patches, not the game devs.

Point still remain it's not a ps5 port.

They don't change the games code, they change how the API behaves.
The Game tells the directx API: I want to render a new frame every 33.3 ms, remind me when I have to render a new frame
And Directx tells the game: Hey, your 33.3 ms are over, please give me the new frame.
But Directx lied to the game and gave the signal after 16.6 ms (for 60fps) or 8.3ms (for 120fps).

So technically the game code has not been altered, just the DX components inside (or maybe outside) of the container.

And this only works because the new hardware renders the frames so fast, that most of the time the hardware just idles arround.

 

[mr magoo]

They don't change the games code, they change how the API behaves.
The Game tells the directx API: I want to render a new frame every 33.3 ms, remind me when I have to render a new frame
And Directx tells the game: Hey, your 33.3 ms are over, please give me the new frame.
But Directx lied to the game and gave the signal after 16.6 ms (for 60fps) or 8.4ms (for 120fps).

So technically the game code has not been altered, just the DX components inside (or maybe outside) of the container.

And this only works because the new hardware renders the frames so fast, that most of the time the hardware just idles arround.

hmm that seems to be very complex. I was under impression that they are able to update just conf files.

 

[Kugai Calo]

hmm that seems to be very complex. I was under impression that they are able to update just conf files.

I think it’s conceptually similar to 4K resolution upgrade for Xbox 360 games, but instead of render target size, the system tinkers with clocks and synchronizations.

 

[Globalisateur]

Does Days Gone run at 60fps on the PS4?

No?

Then this is the PS5 version. :shrug:

Great video Alex. Hopefully the bugs you brought up get cleared up quickly. I noticed that the developers posted a thread in the Steam forum for reporting bugs and they seem quite intent on providing the best experience they can, and willing to hear the concerns from PC gamers.

I read an Q/A somewhere from the PC team handling this port, and it's quite understandable why this port does so many things right. Seems like they have the right kind of people doing the conversion.

No. It's not enough. There are unpatched games that don't run at 60fps on PS4 but do so on PS5. Like Monster Hunter World, God of War 1.0 in resolution mode or The last guardian 1.0. Are those games a PS5 version when they run on PS5?

 

[snc]

Its bc game with uncapped frame after patch on ps5 but still is same ps4pro version not native ps5 app, simple as that

 

[Karamazov]

https://www.eurogamer.net/amp/digitalfoundry-2021-days-gone-ps5-the-60fps-difference

Back compat "PLUS" like DF says. Only fps boost, the rest is identical.
End of debate.

 

[Allandor]

hmm that seems to be very complex. I was under impression that they are able to update just conf files.

It is not really complex. It is a quite simple solution. They don't have the right to touch the code. Copyright-issues, signing-issues, and who knows what other stuff might happen. Also not every game has a config-value or just not at the same spot. So they needed something that works with many games and so they came throught the options to just tell the game, that it is time to deliver a new frame a bit more often.
The only problem with this solution is, that there are still some games, that make actions fps-dependent. So the solution wouldn't work e.g. with dark-souls as the game would also just run faster instead of just producing more frames (for more granular motion). So the FPS boost must be tested and the developer/publisher must also say that this is ok.

E.g. I don't know if this is the a bug of the remastered version of Assassins Creed Rogue or a Bug because of the fps boost, but since I play this game (started with FPS boost) while fighting against ships, it happens very often that big waves are crushing the enemies ships. I can't even board them. I fight with them, than a big wave comes and they sink directly. Didn't happen (as far as I know) in the xb360 version of the game. This might be one of the problems with the physics engine of the game. Or it is just a bug of the remastered edition, I really don't know.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

PS5 required the game to be patched by the developer. The same can't be said for those Xbox Series X|S games. Those FPSBoosted games on Xbox Series are literally identical to their unpatched Xbox One / One X versions.

These are very different things. Days Gone, which I have installed on both my PS4 Pro and PS5, is the exact same game on both comes, i.e. version - 1.70 at 36.90Gb install size updated on 18th April. That last patch improved performance on all PlayStation platforms as well as unlocking the frame rate on PS5 which is enabled by the higher APU clocks on that platform.

Days Gone is not not a PS5 game, it's running in what NXGamer called 'BC3' (Backwards Compatibility 3) mode which means the game is aware it's running on PS5 and can use the higher clocks. The other two modes force the clocks to those of PS4 and PS4 Pro but in terms of the accessible hardware, all three backwards compatibility modes employ the exact same APU logic as those last gen consoles which means you get none of the benefits of the RDNA architecture in PS5. PS5 is literally emulating PS4 and PS4 Pro APUs at a hardware level and that's exactly how they appear to games.

FPSBoost on Xbox works very differently by changing how the game is intending to drive the hardware to alternate setting decided by Microsoft. For the most part these are fine but as DF explain sometimes there are "oddities" to these decisions.

 

[PSman1700]

This isnt really the topic for it to discuss what naming should be used for which platform a game is running on? People are still debating about non technical discussions, its kinda boring. The video didnt spawn tech talk like graphics settings etc, just about what DF said wrong or not.

Its about days gone on a ps5 vs days gone on a pc. Nothing wrong there.
Its just nitpicking over small things no one cares what mode. People that watch this get a overview where to get the best version of days gone(pc in this case)

Just looking at the Console Industry section of the site shows a very clear bias. If my comments here are deemed unacceptable, please also remove my account from the site.

This either doesnt belong here?

Finally a NXGamer video in the DF thread aswell.