Digital Foundry Article Technical Discussion [2020]

[Unknown Soldier]

That $450 probably doesn't include packaging, distribution (possibly including air freight) and storage for what's probably going to be a pretty large and heavy device. Also won't include any kind of retailer margin.

So what. If the console is $450 to make, you think packaging etc. is $50? No! They could sell it at $500 and still make a profit, albeit a small one. But selling 10 million consoles by March 2021 and I bet Sony will be smiling even if the profit margin on the PS5 was only $10.

Given that Sony will maybe want to show shareholders some kind of profit from the huge revenue generated by the console sales, and that pricing may want offer some wiggle room in case of exchange rate fluctuation (America is a turbulent place right now), and that Sony are currently utterly dominant, I could see them pushing for $549 or even $599 at launch.

There's no need to sell it at $549 or $599, that could just slow down there sales however I am sure even at those prices that the PS5 would sell. But why do it if their plan is to get people to buy the PS5 as quickly as possible. The quickest way is to sell at $500 and $450(DE).

They can always drop the price after the first ten or twenty million have sold. Demand is going to outstrip supply this Christmas, even at $600 I reckon.

Sure but again there's no need if they can sell at the prices I mentioned and still make a profit. Their future profits will all come from software sales like it did this gen. Sony made Billions in profit due to those software sales and not hardware sales.

I think so too. And this explains the XSS. I'm starting to think $299 minimum for the XSS. Maybe even $399 if it has an optical drive and controller, and XSX/PS5 are going for something like $599.

So you say the PS5 will be $600 but the XBSS will only be $300? Sony for sure won't sell the PS5 at $600 is the XBSS is only $300.

If XSS is a fully fledged alternative it really needs optical. Especially given how big a selling point back compat is.

Sony has games to sell, BC won't be it's selling point. That said I expect most of the 4000 PS4 games will be playable on the PS5.

Plus, co-op! Some pretty crazy stuff can go off in Halo, and two players can stress the game with more crazy stuff than just one. If Halo Infinite can pull off 60 fps on X1, or even just X1X (like Gears 5), I'll be suitably impressed.

We'll have to wait and see what 343 can deliver. Hopefully it looks way better than what was shown.

 

[function]

So what. If the console is $450 to make, you think packaging etc. is $50? No! They could sell it at $500 and still make a profit, albeit a small one. But selling 10 million consoles by March 2021 and I bet Sony will be smiling even if the profit margin on the PS5 was only $10.

Packaging, shipping. retailer margin is probably near that though. I've worked in retail as a manager. Shop wages and operation costs don't pay themselves. Shops don't operate for nothing ffs. Shops are expensive, if they operate at a loss, they close.

There's no need to sell it at $549 or $599, that could just slow down there sales however I am sure even at those prices that the PS5 would sell. But why do it if their plan is to get people to buy the PS5 as quickly as possible. The quickest way is to sell at $500 and $450(DE).

If you're supply limited this is not factor.

Sure but again there's no need if they can sell at the prices I mentioned and still make a profit. Their future profits will all come from software sales like it did this gen. Sony made Billions in profit due to those software sales and not hardware sales.

If you can easily sell 10 million (supply constrained) at $600, you sell 10 million at $600.

So you say the PS5 will be $600 but the XBSS will only be $300? Sony for sure won't sell the PS5 at $600 is the XBSS is only $300.

I didn't say the PS5 would be $600. Do not attribute that false claim to me, and please don't be a prick. I did say that if the top end consoles were $600 then an optical equipped XSS might be UP TO $400.

I don't know why you are attributing false quotes to someone else, but it sucks whenever someone does it. Grow up.

Sony has games to sell, BC won't be it's selling point. That said I expect most of the 4000 PS4 games will be playable on the PS5.

That doesn't contradict any point I made. Enhanced BC is something MS are crushing. Toss your bullshit talking points into a none technical conversation somewhere else.

We'll have to wait and see what 343 can deliver. Hopefully it looks way better than what was shown.

Please tell me about the performance spikes you had to account for in your highly volatile co-op game.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

I didn't say the PS5 would be $600.

I could see them pushing for $549 or even $599 at launch.

even at $600 I reckon.

XSX/PS5 are going for something like $599.

Sure seemed to imply it though.

Do not attribute that false claim to me, and please don't be a prick.

I don't know why you are attributing false quotes to someone else, but it sucks whenever someone does it. Grow up.

That doesn't contradict any point I made. Enhanced BC is something MS are crushing. Toss your bullshit talking points into a none technical conversation somewhere else.

I wasn't intending to contradict your point. I was pointing out that for Sony, BC is not something that they are worried about. They will be more interested in software sales i.e. new game sales.

Please tell me about the performance spikes you had to account for in your highly volatile co-op game.

You lost me on the question. Was it even a question?

 

[function]

Sure seemed to imply it though.








I wasn't intending to contradict your point. I was pointing out that for Sony, BC is not something that they are worried about. They will be more interested in software sales i.e. new game sales.


You lost me on the question. Was it even a question?

Engage in the conversation or don't. What you're doing isn't cool.

No brand loves you. Only folks who've got to know you do.

Edit: this probably shouldn't be part of B3D. Lets call it a day and just focus on the cool shit about games!

 

[see colon]

There was nothing that looked next gen from the Halo footage. We have open world games this gen that look better.

I don't know what people were really expecting, honestly. We all knew that Halo Infinite would be released on Xbox One also, and beyond any issues with scalability, the most limiting factor to game design is the creation pipeline at this point in time. I'm the minority that thinks the game looked fine. It looked like Halo. And until we see it running on base Xbox One, we can't really judge how the better hardware is handling the game. If it's 720p30 on Xbox One and 4k60 (or 120!) on Series X that's a generational leap in rendering based on the simple mathematics of the number of pixels per second.

And the framerate looked next gen. But I'm in the "60 is the basement" camp.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

Packaging, shipping. retailer margin is probably near that though. I've worked in retail as a manager. Shop wages and operation costs don't pay themselves. Shops don't operate for nothing ffs. Shops are expensive, if they operate at a loss, they close.

Its currently really cheap to to ship via surface freight (road, sea) because the impact of COVID-19 has reduced demand for products many larger. Conversely, air freight is hugely expensive and extremely limited. What we were paying to move twenty pallets @ 400kg/pallet between Asia and Europe back in January is now under half that. I don't know if the costs are any different Asia/US - probably because of all the dumb ass tariffs the US Administration has put it, which is basically an import tax and which needs a ton of paperwork done and paperwork is why things take longer to move and cost more. Customs clearance is as much about tax collection as it is about 'control' of borders.

 

[goonergaz]

I don't know what people were really expecting, honestly. We all knew that Halo Infinite would be released on Xbox One also, and beyond any issues with scalability, the most limiting factor to game design is the creation pipeline at this point in time. I'm the minority that thinks the game looked fine. It looked like Halo. And until we see it running on base Xbox One, we can't really judge how the better hardware is handling the game. If it's 720p30 on Xbox One and 4k60 (or 120!) on Series X that's a generational leap in rendering based on the simple mathematics of the number of pixels per second.

And the framerate looked next gen. But I'm in the "60 is the basement" camp.

The problem is MS have been banging on about having the most powerful console so when they roll out their flagship title you expect to see;

1) it running on the X
2) it looking next gen

It did neither, and please stop with the XBO holding it back BS. That should only be holding back the design not the details. Go back and look at RDR2 XBO vs XBOX. Now we’re lead to believe that XSX will improve RDR2 due to the horse power...yet we see Halo looking like it did with pop in and just flatness everywhere.

 

[Strange]

I think once people see the Xbox One version of Infinite they will stop saying that the version they showed doesn't look "next gen".

showing a watered down version of a current gen looking game doesn't automatically make the current gen game look next gen.

 

[zupallinere]

I just don't see why Sony would be doubling the amount of PS5s produced if it costs over $500.

I would say that they are not expecting to be losing much money on whatever they are building if they are doubling their production. Sony is pretty good at cost reduction so the first ones out of the gate might be on the red side of the ledger for a bit but subsequent production runs will likely bring the BOM down to a reasonable amount before too long.
The PS4 BOM was a bit high for the price but with games and such sold with it they had a modest profit if we are to believe what they said back then. I don't see why they wouldn't do the same this time around.
I bet the PS5 Controllers will be a bit more expensive to help make up for system loses.

 

[BRiT]

I wonder what their predictions are for how many buy a second controller. They may be factoring things like that into their base pricing. Especially if only dual-sense works for PS5 couch co-op games.

 

[Xbat]

The biggest concern or goal I would imagine for Sony with the PS5 is to not lose people who are in there eco system and to obviously grow it.

The best way to do that in my opinion is with exclusive content. So invest heavily in expanding or purchasing devs should be priority number 1 but that takes time to see results.

Taking a loss on hardware is a good short term way to do it and build momentum.
Momentum is very important in the times of social media and uninformed articles that the internet thrives on.

The sheep mentality these days irritates the crap out of me but it definitely is a thing that can cost your brand dearly much more than it should for the smallest thing.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

I know I will be getting a second controller like I did with the PS4. From what I have read and the questionaire from the local game store with regards to the PS5 and the results I saw, most people seem to be inclined to do the same with a few other getting other peripherals. I might get the headset if the sound is as good as Cerny was making it out to be.


Total Votes Cast: 31,690

 

[goonergaz]

I wonder what their predictions are for how many buy a second controller. They may be factoring things like that into their base pricing. Especially if only dual-sense works for PS5 couch co-op games.

Good point!

I know I will be getting a second controller like I did with the PS4. From what I have read and the questionaire from the local game store with regards to the PS5 and the results I saw, most people seem to be inclined to do the same with a few other getting other peripherals. I might get the headset if the sound is as good as Cerny was making it out to be.

View attachment 4460
Total Votes Cast: 31,690

Well no surprise on the popularity of the digital edition, hence the need for it to be at least 100 less

 

[Cyan]

Definitely try the Nvidia control panel FPS limiter setting over half refresh rate. Stutters can still occur due to dropped frames, but overall frame time should be more consistent.

yup, it also helps the CPU a lot! I recently purchased a new PC with a Ryzen 7 3700X, 16GB of RAM and I'm using my GTX 1080 -let's see how Ampere fares-, plus a well ventilated case with many fans and I limited some of my favourite games.

In F1 2020 at 1440p I limited the Max Framerate to 75fps, the CPU keeps in the 40º-50º range, temps wise. That never happened before, 'cos even if you limited the framerate in the game, the pacing -frametime- wasn't as good. Same with other of my favourites games like Resident Evil 2 Remake.

(165fps at 1440p is doable in this PC but it's too much for both, especially with so many drawcalls, but the CPU keeps in the 50 something degrees range, can achieve sixty if you use the flashback feature)

 

[PSman1700]

plus a well ventilated case with many fans and I limited some of my favourite games.

Have you thought about going water cooling sometime? Have it in my main system and it's always running silent and very cool, despite a heatwave (for being sweden) going on.

 

[Cyan]

Have you thought about going water cooling sometime? Have it in my main system and it's always running silent and very cool, despite a heatwave (for being sweden) going on.

a heatwave in Sweden? Wow! That's super odd. I live in northwestern Spain in a green and rainy place, it has been a dry summer -last summer wasn't-, although today we have plenty of rain.

no I didnt, maybe in the future. I am not sure how it works, and how much time it lasts before having to change the pipes -'cos of water leakage-. I'm not an expert overclocker, but just change 2 parameters, and I've been very lucky with the silicon lottery. I fixed the CPU to 4,3GHz and 1.25V and works like a charm, nice temps, low power usage...

A heatwave in Sweden must be like 25º XDDDD .

 

[PSman1700]

a heatwave in Sweden? Wow! That's super odd. I live in northwestern Spain in a green and rainy place, it has been a dry summer -last summer wasn't-, although today we have plenty of rain.

no I didnt, maybe in the future. I am not sure how it works, and how much time it lasts before having to change the pipes -'cos of water leakage-. I'm not an expert overclocker, but just change 2 parameters, and I've been very lucky with the silicon lottery. I fixed the CPU to 4,3GHz and 1.25V and works like a charm, nice temps, low power usage...

A heatwave in Sweden must be like 25º XDDDD .

Last summer we had close to 40 celcius some days Today it was close to 30, that's very warm for us in sweden. This summer was a draw i would say, it got nice just now. 2018 was another story, heatwave whole summer.

Ok, a well done air cooled setup can do very well, WC if you want things silent and even cooler. Don't think theres too much to worry about regarding leaks.
Hm, iven't oc'ed my main system since it doesnt need that (3900x), but ive got two i7 920 systems running @3.6 since.... i got them, both on air.
3700x @ 4.3 will last you through coming generation i think

 

[Cyan]

Last summer we had close to 40 celcius some days Today it was close to 30, that's very warm for us in sweden. This summer was a draw i would say, it got nice just now. 2018 was another story, heatwave whole summer.

Ok, a well done air cooled setup can do very well, WC if you want things silent and even cooler. Don't think theres too much to worry about regarding leaks.
Hm, iven't oc'ed my main system since it doesnt need that (3900x), but ive got two i7 920 systems running @3.6 since.... i got them, both on air.
3700x @ 4.3 will last you through coming generation i think

a 3900X.., what a beast! Do you use water cooling then?

As for OC, I haven't OCed it, never will. What I wanted was dropping temps as much as I could, so I lowered the voltage to 1.25V -wasn't a fan of the CPU reaching voltages up to 1.490V and so on-. However, by doing so, my mobo forces me to set a fixed CPU speed and luckily I could go with 4,3 at 1.25V super stable.

Yup, a 3700X seems to be the base they used for the new consoles. The other day I used the 99% Maximum Processor State trick, and the CPU kept all the time at 3,6GHz, which is the base for PS5/XSX, and it's perfect for them because it never went over 40º, 47º was the max and performed sooo well.

Not that I have a fixation with temps, but my previous PC case was a disaster, a cheap one 'cos I wanted to save money and the cooling was the worst ever. So I paid attention to the details.

This is the PC I've built (only part I reused is the GTX 1080 and the NVMe).

https://www.pccomponentes.com/configurador/F90a3b71D

 

[PSman1700]

a 3900X.., what a beast! Do you use water cooling then?

For that system yes, i'm a pc gamer at heart, i wanted it near silent also since it's my main system connected to the tv where we watch movies, play games etc.

As for OC, I haven't OCed it, never will. What I wanted was dropping temps as much as I could, so I lowered the voltage to 1.25V -wasn't a fan of the CPU reaching voltages up to 1.490V and so on-. However, by doing so, my mobo forces me to set a fixed CPU speed and luckily I could go with 4,3 at 1.25V super stable.

Ah ok, yes i have done the same with the 920's, they volt lower then default oc'ed. But that's the mighty 920, king of OC cpu, in special the D0 steppings

Yup, a 3700X seems to be the base they used for the new consoles. The other day I used the 99% Maximum Processor State trick, and the CPU kept all the time at 3,6GHz, which is the base for PS5/XSX, and it's perfect for them because it never went over 40º, 47º was the max and performed sooo well.

Not that I have a fixation with temps, but my previous PC case was a disaster, a cheap one 'cos I wanted to save money and the cooling was the worst ever. So I paid attention to the details.

This is the PC I've built (only part I reused is the GTX 1080 and the NVMe).

Basically yes, downclocked 3700x's with no boost, probably reduced cache. 47 as max is very nice indeed in special for spain and air cooling
It's worth investing in decent basic parts like case, PSU, cooling components, one appriciates that over time Yes just go with the current 1080/nvme configuration and see about two years down the line for some mid-range rtx 3070/4070 or something.

 

[disco_]

Yup, a 3700X seems to be the base they used for the new consoles. The other day I used the 99% Maximum Processor State trick, and the CPU kept all the time at 3,6GHz, which is the base for PS5/XSX, and it's perfect for them because it never went over 40º, 47º was the max and performed sooo well.

Wouldn't it make more sense if they were using chips based on mobile designs, so 4700 or 4800?