Details trickle out on CELL processor...

[PC-Engine]

Here's the final nail in your coffin:

From that same article:

the "XMB" (Cross Media Bar) GUI, which is currently used on the PSX.

Oh gee what a coincidence, the PSX happens to use the EE/GS chip too....

 

[PC-Engine]

Yeah, why don't we? I've seen some pentium 2s for as low as like $15 new, though I don't know if intel sells them for that price.

Too big, too noisy (fan), and too hot.

 

[Spidermate]

Then the CELL living room means nothing...

Well, if consumer, Cell based devices are expected to launch the market around mid 2006, then that normally says something.

Yes it says PS3 wil use CELL which everyone knows.

Yeah, and other consumer devices. The PS3 will launch first and Cell-based electronics will lauch later within that same year, or would you like me to grab the quote for that?

 

[PC-Engine]

Source preferred, not that it's going to change anything.

 

[Fox5]

Yeah, why don't we? I've seen some pentium 2s for as low as like $15 new, though I don't know if intel sells them for that price.

Too big, too noisy (fan), and too hot.

Assuming it's on a current day process I doubt it would be too big.
Too noisy...didn't p2 have a passive heatsink? If not, it certainly could on a modern process.(certainly can't take more than 7 watts of power)
Too hot...on a modern process I doubt it, plus many current TVs, DVD players, and other devices already generate a lot of heat. I know DSP chips generate tons of heat and require huge passive heatsinks.(I think check just about any surroud sound receiver box and it will probably have a bigger heatsink than is standard for pcs, though a heatsink that large without a fan probably couldn't cool a cpu over 300mhz)

 

[Spidermate]

I'm not understanding you at all. The Emotion Engine was orginally designed for the PS2, no different from Cell. Inspite of this, however, it was still capable of delivering acceptible performance in other devices and electronics as well as the console after two years. Do you or do you not agree?

Of course I agree. How can I disagree with pure fact?

The point, which you aren't really addressing, is that hardware built for general processing and hardware built for graphics processing are quite different. Wherever Cell lands on that spectrum tells how well it will handle different loads.

I agree. Where I believe you're getting at is Cell not holding the same purpose as an officially designed architecture specifically built for that product -- kinda like a super-computer, for example. Chaining a few consoles together is not going to give you the same performance as that of a real super computer entirely. It will always be classed as a weaker version due to the architecture orginally being designed to handle the work of a console. I understand this. But what I'm trying to get you to understand is that all Cell has to do is deliver an acceptible performance for consumer products no different from the Emotion Engine, and it won't make much of any difference at all. Yet, it will still hold well as a dedicated processor for a console and a general processor for most consumer, electronic devices.

 

[Spidermate]

Source preferred, not that it's going to change anything.

The three companies announced their Cell plans three years ago, describing an advanced processor tailored for demanding multimedia tasks. The companies said earlier this week that they plan to begin test production of Cell chips early next year, with the first Cell-based products--workstation PCs for computer graphics production--set to arrive late in the year.

Sony and Toshiba both plan to start selling high-definition TV sets powered by the chip in 2006, which is also when Sony is expected to introduce the Cell-powered PlayStation 3.

full story


There's another report that elaborates on this even further by the mouths of Sony, but PSINext is down right now; so I guess that'll have to do for the time being.

 

[PC-Engine]

Yeah, why don't we? I've seen some pentium 2s for as low as like $15 new, though I don't know if intel sells them for that price.

Too big, too noisy (fan), and too hot.

Assuming it's on a current day process I doubt it would be too big.
Too noisy...didn't p2 have a passive heatsink? If not, it certainly could on a modern process.(certainly can't take more than 7 watts of power)
Too hot...on a modern process I doubt it, plus many current TVs, DVD players, and other devices already generate a lot of heat. I know DSP chips generate tons of heat and require huge passive heatsinks.(I think check just about any surroud sound receiver box and it will probably have a bigger heatsink than is standard for pcs, though a heatsink that large without a fan probably couldn't cool a cpu over 300mhz)

Well if you're going to change the entire process to current day technology then yeah it might be able to be used in a DVD player with a large heatsink for decoding but then you're going to have to also use a software decoder as it's still a general purpose processor. Software IP costs money to develop to. Why use a general purpose processor that needs to run at several hundred MHz needing a heatsink to decode MPEG2 when you can have a ASIC that can do it at tens of MHz?

Oh and btw PS2 used a HUGE passive heatsink but it also required a chassis fan. Even after the die shrinks the EE still ran pretty hot.

 

[Mythos]

I think where Sony wants to go with the Cell chip in TV's is beyond just the normal function variety type of chip. I think the term is more like broadband TV. Where it will be connected in a network and be able to move massive amount on info around. Example: "Analysts said the processor might be able to reorient digitized video as it is received to provide views from above or the end of a playing field. In other applications, the processing power of Cell might permit a viewer to take a TV character and place him in a videogame, or interact with a commercial to see how a dress would look on an image of herself stored in the system."

Source: japantoday.com

 

[PC-Engine]

How can you reorient video data so that you can change the viewpoint if the video data if it is 2 dimensional? The only thing I can think of is if the CELL equiped tv captures video data and streams it to a HDD or DVD-R etc., but that's already available today from PVRs. The idea about capturing video game characters and overlaying them into commercials just sound gimmicky...

 

[randycat99]

If the only things you can imagine are already possible with existing equipment, then you simply are not thinking big enough. That is not a fault of the technology, just your imagination. There is a grocery list of media that can be generated from "mere" 2D imagery. Some of it may be gimmicky (like bumpmapping, you could argue), or it might turn out to be extremely useful/functional. You won't know for sure until you try. Perhaps, melding the pure spectatorship of TV with the interactivity of PS2 type of resources is an avenue to that extent.

 

[Spidermate]

I think where Sony wants to go with the Cell chip in TV's is beyond just the normal function variety type of chip. I think the term is more like broadband TV. Where it will be connected in a network and be able to move massive amount on info around. Example: "Analysts said the processor might be able to reorient digitized video as it is received to provide views from above or the end of a playing field. In other applications, the processing power of Cell might permit a viewer to take a TV character and place him in a videogame, or interact with a commercial to see how a dress would look on an image of herself stored in the system."

Source: japantoday.com

From what I know, Sony is looking to turn their next-gen television set into a computer-like television. The Emotion Engine will allow similiar features but no where near as advance. I really can't go into much detail beyond that since I have been unsuccessful with my search and PSINext still seems to be down. Off the top of my head, though, the options menu will be much different from those of the basic television, and that's only for the Emotion Engine based television sets. In the future, I'm hoping something new comes up.

 

[-tkf-]

Throwing a Pentium 4 or EE/GS chip into a TV to do stuff a cheap $10 ASIC can do doesn't sound too practical.

The point is specialized ASICs can do the same job better cheaper. Why don't we have Pentiums in DVD players to decode MPEG2?

And that's why I said: SONY is trying to to use these EE/GS to save money by not buying other companies ASICs or designing their own.

Crystal clear!

 

[Mythos]

@spidermate..Is the TV the new PC?

LAS VEGAS - The high-definition TV will be the future of the next-generation broadband-networked entertainment hub, predicted Sony President and Chief Operating Officer Kunitake Ando in his Thursday morning Consumer Electronics Show (CES) 2003 keynote.

In the narrowband age, the PC was the only gateway to the network, Ando told attendees. But in the new digital age, the TV is being reborn as the center of broadband entertainment, he said.

Going forward, PCs, like Sony Vaios; game consoles like PlayStation 2; and consumer devices, from DVD camcorders, to handheld Sony Clies, all will link up to smart TVs, like Sony's Wegas. Users will be able to use large-screen TVs to display all forms of media, which they can select with the flick of a finger, in Sony's world view.

Source: extremetech.com

 

[j^aws]

IBM promises easy learning curve for Cell development


Rob Fahey 08:10 06/12/2004


Key partner in PS3 chip creation makes commitment to ease of development


The Cell microprocessor which will power the PlayStation 3 will be significantly easier for developers to get to grips with than previous new platforms, according to comments from chip manufacturer IBM.


Speaking to journalists at a press event to discuss the new chip, IBM Systems and Technology group researcher H Peter Hofstee sought to allay fears that Cell could bring with it similar difficulty for developers as was experienced with the introduction of PlayStation 2.


"We're very much aware of the need to balance between innovation in architecture and the ability to leverage that innovation," he told American website News.com. "The learning curve for this platform should be significantly better than previous ones."


Cell was recently revealed to feature an IBM Power family CPU core along with a number of floating point units which are designed to work in parallel and speed through the calculations required for 3D graphics and other media-related work.


As well as powering the PlayStation 3, the chip is expected to be used in a number of Sony's other consumer electronics products, in high-end computer workstations from IBM and in devices such as televisions and home media systems from Toshiba.


Describing Cell as a "convergence between what we think of as supercomputing and what we use in the entertainment space," Hofstee went on to describe the chip's architecture as "very flexible," claiming that "having a more generic architecture will allow people to do new things."


Although Cell is expected to force developers to begin writing games using multi-threaded code, this is no different to the expected design of next-generation consoles from Microsoft and Nintendo, both of which are likely to feature multiple processors.


Comments from developers suggest that Sony is keen to avoid the mistakes made early in the life of the PlayStation 2, when programmers had severe difficulty getting to grips with the unusual architecture of the machine. PlayStation Portable, although similar to PS2 in hardware terms, boasts a much more usable set of libraries and is generally considered significantly easier to develop for.


With the problems of developing code for next-generation consoles likely to be softened by this approach, as well as by the prevalence of middleware solutions such as Criterion's RenderWare which have come to the fore in the current hardware generation, other issues are foremost in many developers' minds - particularly the thorny issue of how to generate the high-detail art resources which next-generation games will demand, and which threaten to make development costs and team sizes increase massively in the coming years.

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=5802

Initial developer reactions sound promising! 8)

 

[Guden Oden]

Why the fvck are you guys discussing TVs and MPEG2 decoding in the cell thread?

 

[McFly]

Ok, back to the topic.

From: http://games.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=131807&cid=11006251

Actually, CELL is based around the 970. Expect about 80-90% performance compared to an equivalently clocked 970. Where it goes nuts is that there's a number of vector units attached that are basically "VMX on steroids" to quote one of the main guys at IBM behind this. The vector units (or Data Plane Processors as they're calling them) can also communicate between each other as well as with the central core. The workstations are actually headless server blades, each of which will have 2 CELL's on them and they'll be running Linux.

This stuff isn't bullshit, it was all disclosed Thursday at the Australian Game Developers Conference. I didn't sign a NDA so it's all good. I also fondled a PSP =]

Fredi

 

[Brimstone]

Ok, back to the topic.

From: http://games.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=131807&cid=11006251

Actually, CELL is based around the 970. Expect about 80-90% performance compared to an equivalently clocked 970. Where it goes nuts is that there's a number of vector units attached that are basically "VMX on steroids" to quote one of the main guys at IBM behind this. The vector units (or Data Plane Processors as they're calling them) can also communicate between each other as well as with the central core. The workstations are actually headless server blades, each of which will have 2 CELL's on them and they'll be running Linux.

This stuff isn't bullshit, it was all disclosed Thursday at the Australian Game Developers Conference. I didn't sign a NDA so it's all good. I also fondled a PSP =]

Fredi

If true, the big question is if the "vertex processors" in each CPU for the X-Box2 diagram SPU's? A PowerPC core dovetails with my earlier post speculating why Sony got a POWER license in March and Toshiba hasn't. Toshiba plans just to release products containing SPU's.

I'm doubtful about a 970 being used though. I'm also doubtful about the overall reliability of this post on Slashdot.

 

[Fafalada]

If true, the big question is if the "vertex processors" in each CPU for the X-Box2 diagram SPU's?

I'm quite certain they aren't.

But I am right with you on doubting the PU would be a 970 - it would be nice of course - many of us fear the PU core could end up crippled in some way, but it just sounds a bit too much like the typical wishfull thinking that has surrounded both PS3 and X-CPUs from the first time rumours surfaced about some elements being PPC based.

 

[Vince]

When did we start listening to /. anyways? "Data Plane Processors" -- has anyone heard this? I surely haven't. Their thread on Cell is a riot BTW.