Didn't know that. But now can tell I think this means what there will be less games with 60fps and a lot less if at least one with 120fps be end of 9th gen.
Current Generation Games Analysis Technical Discussion [2023] [XBSX|S, PS5, PC]
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Yep. CPU is typically 20GB/s for not so heavy games. 40gb for 60fps. And 80GB for 120fps. Then you lose more bandwidth on top of that because CPU has priority. So there is significant loss to GPU bandwidth as frame rate goes up
It's probably a bit more nuanced than that. Certain things like game logic and AI don't scale with frame rate so their BW needs won't change. Likewise with audio and for the most part decompression / initiating game states - these are governed by time and rate of change rather than frame rate.
The relatively small area of "slow" RAM in the Series X is still 75% of PS5 BW - so not far off the pixel fillrate to BW ratio of the PS5. It's still very very fast by the standards of an APU, and the memory striping for the two areas is different to make best use of the whole bus across the full range of likely uses. And the CPU can use the GPU optimal ram if it wants to ... though I can't see it being required for anything.
As frame rate increases your biggest consumers as you scale upwards will still be GPU buffers, BVH testing and then probably reading geometry / sampling textures. The Series X's area of GPU optimal ram is as likely to likely to help higher frame rates as the slower (but still fast) area of memory is to hinder.
A super high end i9 12900k (8+8 cores, 24 threads) can blast games into the hundreds of fps (e.g. ~400 fps on Doom Eternal) at 720p on less than 90GB/s. A relatively modest console CPU isn't likely to cause Series X too many problems even if it has access to only 336 GB/s. Infact, Techpowerup's memory scaling tests show that even at 720p with the CPU maximally tested this very wide CPU scales with diminishing returns well below 90GB/s, even at well over 120 fps.
DDR5 Memory Performance Scaling with Alder Lake Core i9-12900K
In this article, we take a closer look at the performance scaling you can expect for various DDR5 configurations. We test from DDR5-6000 all the way down to DDR5-2400 and compare CL30 vs. CL36 vs. CL40. Last but not least, we also consider these numbers in relation to what DDR4-3600 offers.
Just as Sony did their homework on the high clocked PS5, I'm sure MS did their homework on having the high bandwidth GPU optimal area of Series X ram.
Silent_Buddha
Legend
Keep in mind as well, that you can keep the CPU memory requests to the slower area if need while keeping the more bandwidth intensive GPU stuff in the fast memory area. In theory that means that CPU bandwidth needs shouldn't significantly impact graphics bandwidth needs.
Regards,
SB
Regards,
SB
I can look there, but it doesn't make it correct. Remember back when Microsoft was kind of hinting they had the better hardware, and they talked about being the only console with RDNA2? One of the advantages of RDNA2 was in the render backend. It's twice as fast in some tasks, but not all. This advantage would theoretically allow you to double the amount of ROPs in the same area, or halve the amount of ROPs with similar performance, depending on the task. This new render backend is called RB+.
Yep. This, combined with PS5's clockspeed advantage give PS5 a a fillrate advantage in the range of 20% in some tasks, but 140% in others. Series X never has an advantage in fillrate, unless PS5's clockspeed falls below Series X's. Based on real world performance we've seen I doubt that's a common occurrence.
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That's not what Iroboto was talking about. On the contrary it could better theoretically in some cases (when bandwidth consumed by the CPU is really high) to give the fast memory pool to the CPU.
VFX_Veteran
Regular
Thank you for saying this. I'm really exhausted of people who have 0 technical experience in graphics making those claims just to show screenshots or gifs showing excellent talent from the artists. These games aren't doing anything technical out of the ordinary as far as rendering is concerned. In fact most of the techniques are old.
GhostofWar
Regular
I don't think UE5/matrix is to blame here, the thing that has caused this is the trailer they released a while back with the captured on ps5 caption. The difference in reveal to gameplay is maybe larger than some of the old favourites like witcher 3 or watchdogs.
It is what it is, but I feel the people who are incredibly upset are the ones who were maybe banking on this game being their nuclear weapon for the "warz".
Silent_Buddha
Legend
At no point is your CPU likely to ever use more bandwidth than is available in the "slow" memory section.
Regards,
SB
VFX_Veteran
Regular
100%.
In reality, all of the games released thus far have been small improvements to last generations games. Using a full RT pipeline will get you there (as proven by Cyberpunk OD). I just think the Matrix demo isn't really a game. There are so many other parts to a game that this scene project doesn't have in it which will certainly increase frametime budget. I can't blame the guys at Epic because they are selling a product and any studio requiring realtime rendering (whether game or tech) are their customers. People were looking at that Nanite demo and swearing they would be getting games like that when no gaming studio has shown anything remotely similar. Epic's technical milestones don't represent the entire gaming industry's milestones and I believe that's the main disconnect here.
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The memes are flowing. Game studios need to adjust and figure out what they want to do. Maybe that's why Naughty Dog is delaying their multiplayer game. Maybe their bar for what they release just went up to avoid any damage to their reputation.
What's the technical analysis when games are so broken (keep crashing) that they can't be reviewed?
The Lord of the Rings: Gollum was too broken to review on PS5 | Digital Trends
We tried to review The Lord of the Rings: Gollum on PS5, but an uncharacteristically poor prerelease state made that task impossible.
www.digitaltrends.com
As far as programming and testing jobs go, I think the games industry is low paying with worse hours. It's going to be very hard to keep people on board and attract talent if people are underpaid and overworked and they don't even get the satisfaction of releasing a good product in the end. Image trading your life to be underpaid and get flamed on twitter.
Unfortunately for the technical bar to get higher and for games to release with quality, companies are going to have to start prioritizing better and treating their employees better, which is unlikely to happen.
VFX_Veteran
Regular
Interesting take. I can say that budgets are way too expensive now. You got games costing more than full VFX films. That's a problem.
The memes are flowing. Game studios need to adjust and figure out what they want to do. Maybe that's why Naughty Dog is delaying their multiplayer game. Maybe their bar for what they release just went up to avoid any damage to their reputation.
What's the technical analysis when games are so broken (keep crashing) that they can't be reviewed?
The Lord of the Rings: Gollum was too broken to review on PS5 | Digital Trends
We tried to review The Lord of the Rings: Gollum on PS5, but an uncharacteristically poor prerelease state made that task impossible.
As far as programming and testing jobs go, I think the games industry is low paying with worse hours. It's going to be very hard to keep people on board and attract talent if people are underpaid and overworked and they don't even get the satisfaction of releasing a good product in the end. Image trading your life to be underpaid and get flamed on twitter.
Unfortunately for the technical bar to get higher and for games to release with quality, companies are going to have to start prioritizing better and treating their employees better, which is unlikely to happen.
On the other hand you have studios that are in control of their own production and can take their sweet time making that next sequel (ala Blizzard, R*, etc..). I was very surprised how much R&D went into CP2077 PT mode. I am certain they dished out a lot of money to Nvidia to help them with that.
I think part of the problem with both films and games is being publicly traded companies. Investors want that stock price going up, which means you need quarterly revenue. Rockstar is lucky in that GTAV has seemed to endlessly print money. Not sure they'd be able to sustain such long time between releases otherwise. Blizzard is kind of the same with WoW and to some extent Overwatch. Not sure if Diablo 3 has micro that sustains their revenues or not. Can't remember. EA has FIFA every year bringing in reliable revenue, as well as Apex. A lot of studios are probably more under the gun to be self-sustaining, and that means they can't be in the negative for five years.
I think the entire structure of the gaming industry is probably broken, and that's leading to diminishing quality, unhappy employees and unhappy consumers.
Not a developer or even do I remotely understand half the jargon used on here most of the time but is it fair to say the future lies in a combination of AI coupled with procedural generation all being run on future gen technology (this gen just being a steeping stone). Is it fair to say the the likes of UE are developing the engine ready for this next phase? We're already starting to see what AI can produce in art and if it you give it photorealistic geometry to throw about, then its pretty exciting to me as to what that could create, and the scale of it. Sure that leaves gameplay, but again, as AI is trained more and more, surely its only a matter of time before it all just becomes procedural, based on algorithms. I can imagine a time coming where I simply say 'hey, Gamecreator, give me a new game of golf to play' and I get this unique, interesting version of a golf game. I play it, if i get bored, I might say the same thing again and get a totally new version, and so on.
Again, no expert so sorry for lack of jargon or anything more technical based, just looking on from the outside - I honestly think exciting times ahead.
DavidGraham
Veteran
That's what I have been saying for a while now. It's also full of less talented people now, those talented enough has either flocked to more profitable endeavors or retired.
No mate. They are told the build the wrong thing.
Asking someone to make the next dota
Or league or counter strike is daunting. Live
Service games are dauntingly hard to make.
If all developers were told to drop any and all multiplayer and focus on a single platform for a single player game, the level of quality output would improve dramatically.
It’s not a talent problem. It’s a scope and moving target problem.
VFX_Veteran
Regular
Agree here although one could make the claim for both. Gaming industry is really a booming "luxurious" endeavor. They may pay little compared to the other tech industries but there's no denying it's a highly coveted industry (especially for younger people). The older people (like my age) find it way too fast, hectic and with very little returns. There are indeed more industries combined that are realtime but not gaming out there and a lot of those companies are way more relaxed and stable.
D
Deleted member 11852
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Naughty Dog's last four games have all been delayed, so this is normal practice for the studio.
DavidGraham
Veteran
On PC, We've had nothing but problems with Single Player/Co-Op games, Callisto Protocol, Gotham Knights, Hogwarts Legacy, Last of Us, Gollum, Redfall, Jedi Survivor, Forespoken, Dead Space Remake, Wild Hearts, Deliver Us Mars, Wo Long Fallen Dynasty, Witcher 3 Next Gen, Elden Ring, Saints Row 2022, and too many others to count.
On the contrary, multiplayer games tend to work well out of the box because they are targeted towrads a much wider audience.
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