Current Generation Games Analysis Technical Discussion [2022] [XBSX|S, PS5, PC]

[QPlayer]

Rockstar games will release raytracing on PC and the implementation will be different but it will go faster and probably they will use more RT features like RTGI, RT shadows, RTAO. They won't limit PC implementation to RT reflections.

Rockstar North always implement new stuffs on consoles and after PC but when it is done High end PC are more powerful than consoles and they can do much more.

More powahh... Lol

The point here is not how much more powerful a $2-3000 PC is than a $500 console, but that there are techniques that work better at the closed systems and low level api level of consoles than the fragmented PC space, which is also often limited due to DirectX rules. And there are certainly more effective methods, such as this elegant software solution, BVH streaming, so that Ray-tracing runs really well even on current consoles. Because this GTA5 implementation looks really good.

 

[pjbliverpool]

More powahh... Lol

The point here is not how much more powerful a $2-3000 PC is than a $500 console,

Let's not pretend it takes a $2-$3k PC to outperform the consoles. We've been down this road before and it always ends the same way.

but that there are techniques that work better at the closed systems and low level api level of consoles than the fragmented PC space, which is also often limited due to DirectX rules. And there are certainly more effective methods, such as this elegant software solution, BVH streaming, so that Ray-tracing runs really well even on current consoles. Because this GTA5 implementation looks really good.

BVH streaming is about saving CPU cycles as I understand it. I don't believe it makes the GPU particularly more performant at Ray Tracing. You can be certain there's nothing in GTAV that a modest DX12U capable PC couldn't handle.

 

[PSman1700]

The point here is not how much more powerful a $2-3000 PC is than a $500 console

3060Ti will do.

 

[chris1515]

More powahh... Lol

The point here is not how much more powerful a $2-3000 PC is than a $500 console, but that there are techniques that work better at the closed systems and low level api level of consoles than the fragmented PC space, which is also often limited due to DirectX rules. And there are certainly more effective methods, such as this elegant software solution, BVH streaming, so that Ray-tracing runs really well even on current consoles. Because this GTA5 implementation looks really good.

But at the end PC will do better in RT. Console BVH management is more flexible and help on CPU side but it can't change the fact BVH traversal is much faster on Nvidia and Intel GPU or AMD PC GPU are more powerful.

 

[chris1515]

3060Ti will do.

2070, 2070 Super, 2080, 2080 Ti, 3060, 3060Ti, 3070, 3080, 3090, 4080, 4090 on Nvidia side.

6700 XT, 6800 XT, 7900 XT, 7900 XTX on AMD side too...

 

[QPlayer]

BVH streaming is about saving CPU cycles as I understand it. You can be certain there's nothing in GTAV that a modest DX12U capable PC couldn't handle.

I agree with that, but it wasn't about which hardware knows more, but about the fact that you can achieve significantly better results with BVH geometry streaming on a console than if only the fixed BVH geometry were used. Obviously, if Rockstar wanted Ray-tracing to be available on PC, they would do it.

One more time. The significance of all this is that high-quality Ray-tracing can also be achieved on consoles, just not by force, but with modern software techniques.

 

[Karamazov]

i don't think we can say GTA5's RT reflections on consoles are high quality, at glance i'd say even less things are reflected than in Spiderman or R&C.

 

[pjbliverpool]

I agree with that, but it wasn't about which hardware knows more, but about the fact that you can achieve significantly better results with BVH geometry streaming on a console than if only the fixed BVH geometry were used.

Better results in what sense? As mentioned a couple of times above, streaming the BHV is going to reduce your CPU load because the BVH no longer has to be built (on the CPU) at runtime - at least not for fixed geometry.

This isn;t going to make the PS5 GPU perform like a 3060Ti in Raytracing though. There will still have to be quality compromises.

One more time. The significance of all this is that high-quality Ray-tracing can also be achieved on consoles, just not by force, but with modern software techniques.

High quality is in the eye of the beholder, but streaming BVH isn't going to allow the consoles to match something like a 3060Ti in RT quality or quantity. It may well mean the PC needs a more powerful CPU to achieve the same performance though.

 

[Inuhanyou]

Some peoples ideas about console magic sauce really are kinda amusing

Any software techique that can be done on consoles will generally only scale better on PC with more hardware grunt thrown at it. It's still efficiency. It doesn't make console rendering of these features more efficient than PC if all things are equal, only the lack of such features might affect that.

It's what people were talking about with how Witcher 3 has lower setting RT on console compared to PC. If they had equal setting they would both benefit from the efficiency gain

 

[PSman1700]

2070, 2070 Super, 2080, 2080 Ti, 3060, 3060Ti, 3070, 3080, 3090, 4080, 4090 on Nvidia side.

6700 XT, 6800 XT, 7900 XT, 7900 XTX on AMD side too...

Dont forget 2060S/6600XT

I agree with that, but it wasn't about which hardware knows more, but about the fact that you can achieve significantly better results with BVH geometry streaming on a console than if only the fixed BVH geometry were used. Obviously, if Rockstar wanted Ray-tracing to be available on PC, they would do it.

One more time. The significance of all this is that high-quality Ray-tracing can also be achieved on consoles, just not by force, but with modern software techniques.

BVH streaming from storage isnt going to magically bring it up to 2070S levels of RT performance though. BVH streaming could be implemented on PC too in further DS iterations perhaps, though i think its not all that of a hurry or needed. Theres technologies out there which reduce CPU overhead much and much more effectively.

Some peoples ideas about console magic sauce really are kinda amusing

Any software techique that can be done on consoles will generally only scale better on PC with more hardware grunt thrown at it. It's still efficiency. It doesn't make console rendering of these features more efficient than PC if all things are equal, only the lack of such features might affect that.

It's what people were talking about with how Witcher 3 has lower setting RT on console compared to PC. If they had equal setting they would both benefit from the efficiency gain

Consoles enjoy the fixed hardware platform, developers can optimized much better for the hardware. Though scaling has improved alot the past generations, so is targetting different hardware configurations and platforms.

 

[davis.anthony]

The dream........

Because this GTA5 implementation looks really good.

The significance of all this is that high-quality Ray-tracing can also be achieved on consoles, just not by force, but with modern software techniques.

The reality........

 

[Inuhanyou]

The dream........






The reality........

View attachment 7962

I guess if your not looking too hard at the backround it's ok but that cutoff is pretty obvious otherwise. Your not able to perfectly look at the cityscape in helicopter either...eh

 

[see colon]

I guess if your not looking too hard at the backround it's ok but that cutoff is pretty obvious otherwise. Your not able to perfectly look at the cityscape in helicopter either...eh

I guess. But even with the short reflection distance the helicopter is missing details (like the blades) and the city looks like an Unreal skybox from 2002.

 

[Inuhanyou]

I guess. But even with the short reflection distance the helicopter is missing details (like the blades) and the city looks like an Unreal skybox from 2002.

Right. I guess their intent was to see them from far away and not pan in...but it's hard not to notice when you see it

 

[Below2D]

This Ray-tracing procedure written for consoles is unique and not compatible with the PC DirectX Ray-tracing API.

What is this procedure written for consoles? The Series consoles also use DXR for their ray tracing as explained in this article. Playstation definitely uses its own API, but I'd be curious to know what the Series X uses if not DXR in GTA V.

 

[Karamazov]

What is this procedure written for consoles ?

the "below low" PC setting

 

[Dampf]

Optimized Raytracing

Optimized Raytracing for lower RTGI performance cost with higher visual quality (increased coverage distance and lower GI lag)

www.nexusmods.com

With that, RTGI in Witcher 3 runs A LOT better.

 

[Cynicalking]

Optimized Raytracing

Optimized Raytracing for lower RTGI performance cost with higher visual quality (increased coverage distance and lower GI lag)

www.nexusmods.com

With that, RTGI in Witcher 3 runs A LOT better.

Ohhh interesting. Will give it a try tonight.

 

[pjbliverpool]

Optimized Raytracing

Optimized Raytracing for lower RTGI performance cost with higher visual quality (increased coverage distance and lower GI lag)

www.nexusmods.com

With that, RTGI in Witcher 3 runs A LOT better.

Ridiculous that CDPR haven't implemented something like this as an option themselves.

 

[iroboto]

From a Hungarian technological site, there is no direct source, but the author is well informed on this topic and they talk a lot about these things.

Hamarosan két sugárkövetéses effekt is lesz a GTA V-ben

Ezek azonban csak az új konzolgenerációra vonatkoznak, a PC-s bevezetésről szó sincs.

prohardver.hu

The PC update is yet to come, with so many fans demanding it, and it's likely that even more PC gamers will want to get the graphics enhancement after the ray-traced reflections. In addition, there are several places where it comes up that the code for the Xbox Series X can be run on a PC in the first place, so many people find it incomprehensible what the studio is waiting for, but unfortunately, the situation with Rockstar Games really isn't that simple.

A primarily significant difference from consoles is that Grand Theft Auto V on PC runs in DirectX 11, meaning it should first be replaced with an explicit API that supports ray tracing, be it DirectX 12 or Vulkan. This is a problem in itself, but it is not insurmountable, although it is questionable whether the studio wants to deal with it. However, there is another problem, as ray tracing for PlayStation 5 and Xbox Series X consoles works in such a way that the implementation is capable of streaming the geometry of the BVH, meaning that the radius that passes from one bounding box to another can not only work with preset, immutable geometric detail on the fly, but the latter can be dynamically modified. This is important because, despite the existence of ray-traced code for Xbox Series X, for example, the system written for Microsoft's console is not at all compatible with the DirectX Raytracing API for PC.

^^^
I'd be curious to get some internal discussion on the validity of this. @JoeJ