Current Generation Games Analysis Technical Discussion [2020-2021] [XBSX|S, PS5, PC]

[BRiT]

The ID buffer of PS4Pro was ditched in PS5, right? Any ideas why?

I thought it remained at least in the hardware instruction mix. Though wasn't it seeing less use even on the 4Pro as devs came up with their own and better Checkerboarding implementations?

Edit: I'm assuming the instruction is still there because of how it's capable of running 4Pro in BC mode on PS5. Unfortunately I haven't come across any leaked PS5 SDKs to know this for certain.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

As it didn't tie them into a checkboarding algorithm, I don't see a reason to remove it if it was effective. It was even mentioned the ID buffer with various post effects. I'm probably assuming it's absent as it wasn't talked of as a customisation, nor has it been rolled into AMD proper.

 

[Jay]

Main reason to keep it could be for 4Pro BC, even if it isn't seeing much use at all.

 

[BRiT]

Yes, like Globalisateur and Jay pointed out, it would be weird for PS5 to not be able to run 4Pro profiles in BC. That might lead to odd situations where 4Pro runs higher resolution as PS5 would be forced to run PS4 profiles.

Would be nice to have some SDK devkit leaks like there was on 4Pro.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

If it's in, has it not actually got value after all in games to warrant its use (and PR communication PS5 has this advantage)? In short, an over-engineered solution no-one wanted?

 

[Jay]

If it's in, has it not actually got value after all in games to warrant its use (and PR communication PS5 has this advantage)? In short, an over-engineered solution no-one wanted?

A reasonable hardware update at the time that has now been superceded?
Possibly still included to maintain BC.

They saw where engines was going and thought of a way to make it more efficient in hardware, or better yet make the hardware more efficient.

No different than most hardware tweeks, or hardware innovations.

 

[davis.anthony]

It's a shame CB didn't have the attention it needed as when done well (Days Gone) the image it could deliver was outstanding.

I would love to see a per game breakdown of every game that uses CB to see which ones used the ID and which ones didn't and then compare the quality of the implementation.

 

[snc]

 

[davis.anthony]

I do love the frame rate stats he includes with his videos, it's something DF really needs to step up to and start doing themselves.

 

[mr magoo]

Series S: 1260p at 60fps with temporal reconstruction rendering
PS5: 2160p at 60fps with temporal reconstruction rendering
SX: 2160p at 60fps with temporal reconstruction rendering

The PC version runs with all settings maxed out using DLSS in quality mode with an RTX 3080.
The PS5 version seems to apply temporal reconstruction better, achieving a slightly sharper result than the Series X version, but lower than the DLSS on PC.
The PC version has the possibility to activate ray tracing for ambient occlusion with Nvidia card.
Series S has a practically perfect framerate.
PS5/SX suffer some occasional drops, being more common on PS5.
Similar textures on PS5/SX in most cases, but in others the PS5 version is closer to the PC version.
Lower quality of textures in Series S. Slight anisotropic filtering improvement on Series X over PS5. Lower in Series S. Series S shadows have lower resolution.
On PS5/SX, they seem to have the same graphical setting.
Regarding vegetation, Series S has a lower amount. It is difficult to know if PS5/SX/PC have the same configuration, since the vegetation distribution is different, but they look the same.
The drawing distance is similar on the 4 platforms, but slightly lower on Series S.
Reflections have lower resolution on S Series. On PS5, they seem to have lower quality compared to SX/PC.
There are curious differences between versions, but in any case they are anecdotal.
It's a good job on all platforms.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Why 1260p for XSS? I thought that was targeted very clearly as a 1080p machine and I'm guess most are running on 1080p sets. even if not, 1080p > 2160p is a better option for 4K sets than 1260p, right?

The PS5 version seems to apply temporal reconstruction better

Maybe the ID buffer is in there after all!

 

[Jay]

Why 1260p for XSS? I thought that was targeted very clearly as a 1080p machine and I'm guess most are running on 1080p sets. even if not, 1080p > 2160p is a better option for 4K sets than 1260p, right?

Technically MS markets it as 1440p machine, even though realistically more sense to say 1080p. Imo

Sampling from 1260p down to 1080p or upto 4K will look than from 1080p.

 

[Globalisateur]

Why 1260p for XSS? I thought that was targeted very clearly as a 1080p machine and I'm guess most are running on 1080p sets. even if not, 1080p > 2160p is a better option for 4K sets than 1260p, right?

Maybe the ID buffer is in there after all!

I don't know. I have watched the video and didn't see any noticeable difference of sharpness or anisotropic filtering between PS5 and XSX. His job is valuable because he makes a great job of comparing all the versions in plenty of scenes, but often his statements are unsubstantiated or inaccurate. We'll know more with DF and NXGamer articles.

 

[davis.anthony]

Why 1260p for XSS? I thought that was targeted very clearly as a 1080p machine and I'm guess most are running on 1080p sets. even if not, 1080p > 2160p is a better option for 4K sets than 1260p, right?

Maybe the ID buffer is in there after all!

IIRC, didn't RE8:Village have better reconstruction on PS5 too?

 

[cwjs]

I wasn't paying attention during ps4 pro hype, but isn't the ID buffer just hardware acceleration for..... ID buffers? Surely the new consoles have the bandwidth to just stick id in the regular g buffer if they want it without special purpose hardware support.

 

[davis.anthony]

I wasn't paying attention during ps4 pro hype, but isn't the ID buffer just hardware acceleration for..... ID buffers? Surely the new consoles have the bandwidth to just stick id in the regular g buffer if they want it without special purpose hardware support.

Why waste the bandwidth if you have a few transistors to do the job more efficiency, I'm sure it gives them access to triangle data too which is quite expensive with the ID buffer hardware.

I wonder if PS5 does have the ID buffer included to aid PS4 Pro BC if it would work well with some ML based upscaling or even used for triangle information to help make RT more efficient?

 

[iroboto]

Why waste the bandwidth if you have a few transistors to do the job more efficiency, I'm sure it gives them access to triangle data too which is quite expensive with the ID buffer hardware.

I wonder if PS5 does have the ID buffer included to aid PS4 Pro BC if it would work well with some ML based upscaling or even used for triangle information to help make RT more efficient?

unlikely I think.

At least from a ML perspective, I'm not sure how ML is going to work with triangle data for anti-aliasing and upscaling. Generally they require pixel and motion vector inputs. Not sure about RT, that's going to be about traversing the BVH and I can't see ID Buffer helping there since triangle data is already covered. on a aside note: I recall a long time ago discussion that if customizations on PS4/Pro were very good we'd find them on AMD's products later; looking backwards FSR is the solution they chose to go with.

 

[davis.anthony]

unlikely I think.

At least from a ML perspective, I'm not sure how ML is going to work with triangle data for anti-aliasing and upscaling. Generally they require pixel and motion vector inputs. Not sure about RT, that's going to be about traversing the BVH and I can't see ID Buffer helping there since triangle data is already covered. on a aside note: I recall a long time ago discussion that if customizations on PS4/Pro were very good we'd find them on AMD's products later; looking backwards FSR is the solution they chose to go with.

You mis-understood, ML wouldn't be using the triangle data.

Instead of using temporal AA upscale + ML, they could go CB + ML?

Surely giving a better result?

 

[Shifty Geezer]

At least from a ML perspective, I'm not sure how ML is going to work with triangle data for anti-aliasing and upscaling. Generally they require pixel and motion vector inputs. Not sure about RT, that's going to be about traversing the BVH and I can't see ID Buffer helping there since triangle data is already covered.

The ID buffer just identifies surfaces at the pixel level as belonging to one or other object. It'd be another additional piece of pixel data, colour, motion, ID. Might prove useful in the ML knowing whether it constructing a boundary or interpolating a surface? Though in real terms it's more subtle than that, I guess.

on a aside note: I recall a long time ago discussion that if customizations on PS4/Pro were very good we'd find them on AMD's products later; looking backwards FSR is the solution they chose to go with.

Yeah. But then if AMD did, would it see use? Maybe it seemed a good idea but they realised it'd be an unused feature as it's not a DX standard or something? If the future is ML reconstruction, perhaps the ID buffer just came too late and is unwanted as a legacy concept tied to CB/algorithmic reconstruction ideas that no-one cares for any more?

 

[JPT]

I remember this comment about ID buffer and Horizon Zero Dawn.

Sony ID Buffer *spawn*